Makes a lot more sense than some of the other theories I've read.
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Spain Jay Slater, 19, missing on holiday in Tenerife, 17 June 2024 #5- Latest: Curiousraccoon
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Makes a lot more sense than some of the other theories I've read.
Ridiculous
Arturo Durano
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The parent's big-night-out party in a foreign country yet, and their change of story, has always served to raise my eyebrows far above my eyes. THAT alone - the non-care of their family - would cause me to enquire a whole lot further re their entire evening. It raises entirely justified suspicion with this observer.
GideonsTrumpet
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I think Maddie refused to take anymore Phenobarbital and wanted to stay up-is what I think. I think some trauma happened around that, and I think it was around 3-4:00 PM. I think the McCann’s just kept pushing earlier and earlier to have time alone. I think she was put in the fridge until they could figure out what else to do. Obvious the McCann’s freaked and could NEVER admit what went on in a foreign country-no matter what. Could anyone? And these two were especially pious!
I think the Pope trip WAS part of the grieving process and if you took special note-the Pope was really avoiding her and consoling the husband. I would never go to see the Pope if my kid could still be alive in another place. I thought the Mom did it-but possible Gerry, who was a self absorbed creepy dude did it. I think everything at dinner was a set up-including some poor service staff they kept trying to get to sit with them. (Create all doubt you can.) THIS is why I think these people are pigs. And I do-the McCanns are MASTER manipulators.
I think the Pope trip WAS part of the grieving process and if you took special note-the Pope was really avoiding her and consoling the husband. I would never go to see the Pope if my kid could still be alive in another place. I thought the Mom did it-but possible Gerry, who was a self absorbed creepy dude did it. I think everything at dinner was a set up-including some poor service staff they kept trying to get to sit with them. (Create all doubt you can.) THIS is why I think these people are pigs. And I do-the McCanns are MASTER manipulators.
Barnaby
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Hi Kazzbar, Do you not think the car would be too risky? Anyone could have checked the boot.
Probably, Barnaby but desperate people do desperate things. Couie put Jessica Lundsford's body under the front porch of his trailer..no-one checked did they? Not straight away. Although he did keep her alive for a few days inside the house.
The whole point is that in the immediate investigation the cops did not check the car and who knows what was there. It must be remembered that by all acounts the LE investigation was compromised early by little regard to the apartment. I do not have any faith in the Portugese police and their investigation of Maddies 'dissapearance'.
Sadly, I do not think we will ever get any answers. Just like so many missing cases.
Although I would ( in a perfect world) like to believe the Mc Canns are innocent, I have seen to many cases where parents are guilty and covering up for each other.
Barnaby
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The car that the DNA was found in was hired much later by the McCanns. However, it was suggested that some other members of the Tapas crew did have that same car on May 3rd so perhaps your theory is correct.
I hope that we do get answers Kazzbar, so many genuinely concerned people have put so much concern into this case, I would just hate to think that it will remain unsolved!
Tony Bennett
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My latest theory based on a leak from the PJ that cadaverine was found in a flower-bed at the bottom of the steps at Apartment 5a at Praia da Luz:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am interested in the claim that cadaverine, the scent of death, was found in a flowerbed near the stone steps.
Up to now, I have been prepared to consider that Madeleine could have died as the result of a rage attack by either parent, probably Kate, furious at being summoned by an Ocean Club member and hauled out of Chaplins to attend to a sobbing Madeleine.
One of my reasons for maintaining this option was the reports of Madeleine's blood being found in the children's bedroom - and, still more relevant, Kate McCann's improbable explanation for how it got there.
Then there were the reports of blood specks on the steps, which made it looke like Madeleine had had some kind of accident on the steps.
I now summarise, from the leaks we have had, the relevant points to consider, in working out what may have happened on the night of 2nd/3rd May:
RELEVANT POINTS
* Mrs Pamela Fenn hears Madeleine sobbing and crying out 'Daddy', 'Daddy'. Reports suggest this was 10.30pm to 11.45pm. I think this was on 2 May, not 1 May as some reports had it
* McCanns located in Chaplins and summoned to go back to the flat to find out if Madeleine is OK
* Clearly false, self-serving account by the McCanns of how Madeleine cheerfully asked her parents at breakfast-time why they were absent last night when she and Sean were crying. From this we know that Sean was crying as well. The McCanns would only admit to this if they knew that someone else had definitley heard or observed Sean crying
* None of the eight claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May can be relied on [see my earlier analysis of these eight so-called 'sightings']
* Cadaverine found in/on:-
- children's room in apartment
- Kate's clothes
- Madeleine's clothes
- flower bed near the steps
- Renault Scenic hire car
* Madeleine's blood found in children's room and possibly on steps.
So that leads us on to a possible
RECONSTRUCTION OF THE NIGHT'S EVENTS [2 MAY 2007]
1. McCanns put children to bed and administer the usual sedatives, Calpol, or maybe something stronger.
2. Maybe about 8pm to 9pm, they go out for another evening's heavy drinking - wine and strawberry daiquiris according to the Ocean Club waiters. Except that they may have gone to Chaplins that evening. Or somewhere else. There are no 'checking'/monitoring arrangements in place for the children at all. This has always been a lie by the McCanns.
3. Something wakes up Madeleine around 10.30pm. Something has disturbed her or worried her. She begins sobbing. Sean wakes up and starts sobbing as well.
4. Possibly, soon after Madeleine starts crying, she tries to get out of the apartment to find her parents. In doing so, she climbs on to the veranda and falls down the patio steps in the dark. Or possibly, she first tries to get out of the apartment, then falls down the steps and hurts herself badly, is unable to get up and starts crying. Possibly she had vomited in her bed, which would explain the Russell O'Brien incident of taking a sheet covered in vomit to be cleaned - plus the (fairly obviously) false story of one of his two children being sick that night.
5. By 11.45pm she is dead from loss of blood or other causes.
6. Sometime late evening Mrs Fenn calls Ocean Club staff and says: "Where are the McCanns? Get them".
7. Ocean Club roam the streets of Praia da Luz and track down the McCanns to Chaplins (or wherever else they were).
8. One or both McCanns return to the apartment, probably well afre midnight, and find Madeleine dead at the foot of the steps.
9. Other members of the Tapas 9 summoned to see if Madeleine can be revived. McCanns and members of Tapas 9 decide they cannot afford an autopsy and resolve to hide the body, claim abduction, clean up the apartment to remove all traces of blood, then devise the cunning plan of creating a hoax abduction scenario at 10.00pm the following evening.
10. During 3 May, clean-up operation progresses. Each of the Tapas 9 allocated their role in creating the abduction hoax. Detailed discussions about the plan held by the Tapas 9 men on the tennis courts in the afternoon.
11. Madeleine's body spirited away from Apartment 5a maybe to another apartment belonging to a member of the Tapas 9, then - before 10.00pm on 3 May - driven to a safe location away from Praia da Luz awaiting final disposal. Possibly 'the barn'.
12. Kate McCann takes poolside photo of Gerry plus one of the twins, at 2.29pm. Madeleine photoshopped in later when Gerry McCann returns to England for 48 hours around 20th May.
13. 'Phone numbers of media and ambassador etc. obtained during 3 May, ready for a sudden blitz of information to the media, from about 10.45pm onwards on 3 May, that 'a 3-year-old child on the Algarve has been dramatically abducted'.
14. 10.00pm on 3 May. Kate shouts 'abduction'. Media informed of 'abduction'. Police informed of 'abduction'.
+++++++++++
Please point out any flaws in the above draft reconstruction
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am interested in the claim that cadaverine, the scent of death, was found in a flowerbed near the stone steps.
Up to now, I have been prepared to consider that Madeleine could have died as the result of a rage attack by either parent, probably Kate, furious at being summoned by an Ocean Club member and hauled out of Chaplins to attend to a sobbing Madeleine.
One of my reasons for maintaining this option was the reports of Madeleine's blood being found in the children's bedroom - and, still more relevant, Kate McCann's improbable explanation for how it got there.
Then there were the reports of blood specks on the steps, which made it looke like Madeleine had had some kind of accident on the steps.
I now summarise, from the leaks we have had, the relevant points to consider, in working out what may have happened on the night of 2nd/3rd May:
RELEVANT POINTS
* Mrs Pamela Fenn hears Madeleine sobbing and crying out 'Daddy', 'Daddy'. Reports suggest this was 10.30pm to 11.45pm. I think this was on 2 May, not 1 May as some reports had it
* McCanns located in Chaplins and summoned to go back to the flat to find out if Madeleine is OK
* Clearly false, self-serving account by the McCanns of how Madeleine cheerfully asked her parents at breakfast-time why they were absent last night when she and Sean were crying. From this we know that Sean was crying as well. The McCanns would only admit to this if they knew that someone else had definitley heard or observed Sean crying
* None of the eight claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May can be relied on [see my earlier analysis of these eight so-called 'sightings']
* Cadaverine found in/on:-
- children's room in apartment
- Kate's clothes
- Madeleine's clothes
- flower bed near the steps
- Renault Scenic hire car
* Madeleine's blood found in children's room and possibly on steps.
So that leads us on to a possible
RECONSTRUCTION OF THE NIGHT'S EVENTS [2 MAY 2007]
1. McCanns put children to bed and administer the usual sedatives, Calpol, or maybe something stronger.
2. Maybe about 8pm to 9pm, they go out for another evening's heavy drinking - wine and strawberry daiquiris according to the Ocean Club waiters. Except that they may have gone to Chaplins that evening. Or somewhere else. There are no 'checking'/monitoring arrangements in place for the children at all. This has always been a lie by the McCanns.
3. Something wakes up Madeleine around 10.30pm. Something has disturbed her or worried her. She begins sobbing. Sean wakes up and starts sobbing as well.
4. Possibly, soon after Madeleine starts crying, she tries to get out of the apartment to find her parents. In doing so, she climbs on to the veranda and falls down the patio steps in the dark. Or possibly, she first tries to get out of the apartment, then falls down the steps and hurts herself badly, is unable to get up and starts crying. Possibly she had vomited in her bed, which would explain the Russell O'Brien incident of taking a sheet covered in vomit to be cleaned - plus the (fairly obviously) false story of one of his two children being sick that night.
5. By 11.45pm she is dead from loss of blood or other causes.
6. Sometime late evening Mrs Fenn calls Ocean Club staff and says: "Where are the McCanns? Get them".
7. Ocean Club roam the streets of Praia da Luz and track down the McCanns to Chaplins (or wherever else they were).
8. One or both McCanns return to the apartment, probably well afre midnight, and find Madeleine dead at the foot of the steps.
9. Other members of the Tapas 9 summoned to see if Madeleine can be revived. McCanns and members of Tapas 9 decide they cannot afford an autopsy and resolve to hide the body, claim abduction, clean up the apartment to remove all traces of blood, then devise the cunning plan of creating a hoax abduction scenario at 10.00pm the following evening.
10. During 3 May, clean-up operation progresses. Each of the Tapas 9 allocated their role in creating the abduction hoax. Detailed discussions about the plan held by the Tapas 9 men on the tennis courts in the afternoon.
11. Madeleine's body spirited away from Apartment 5a maybe to another apartment belonging to a member of the Tapas 9, then - before 10.00pm on 3 May - driven to a safe location away from Praia da Luz awaiting final disposal. Possibly 'the barn'.
12. Kate McCann takes poolside photo of Gerry plus one of the twins, at 2.29pm. Madeleine photoshopped in later when Gerry McCann returns to England for 48 hours around 20th May.
13. 'Phone numbers of media and ambassador etc. obtained during 3 May, ready for a sudden blitz of information to the media, from about 10.45pm onwards on 3 May, that 'a 3-year-old child on the Algarve has been dramatically abducted'.
14. 10.00pm on 3 May. Kate shouts 'abduction'. Media informed of 'abduction'. Police informed of 'abduction'.
+++++++++++
Please point out any flaws in the above draft reconstruction
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Tony,
Thanks for posting your theory, food for thought indeed. I have a couple of things...
On another forum I belong to it was discussed that because of this diagram:
which shows the death scent on the front door side of the apartment (not the patio side), that perhaps the flower (seed) beds mentioned in the report were actually these:
and you will see that there is not a dog symbol representing the death scent on the patio side.
So, last night I posted a "tweaked" version of my original theory for them to consider. Here it is for your consideration as well:
One reason that a plan to conceal a body might be hatched would be because it was not an accidental death. Imagine that due to the previous night's crying a certain doctor asked his certain doctor friend if he had any suggestions on how they might be sure their child would sleep. The doctor friend might have suggested what he was using for his own children. Imagine that all the children were then given sedatives as soon as they were brought back to the apartment. Imagine then that the twins were bathed and getting sleepy, put to bed. Then it was the little girl's turn and she resisted. Did not want to take a bath, maybe the sedative had the opposite effect and she was rambunctious. Imagine at 6:37PM a certain doctor father lost his cool with his uncooperative daughter and lashed out...fatally. Imagine the panic. The child had sedatives in her bloodstream and a fracture that could not be explained as an accident. The parents hatched a plan. The planning/discussion and clean-up took place between 6:40 and 8:15 while her body lay in a duffel bag, hidden away (in a wardrobe/in front of the wardrobe).
The daughter was stripped bare and her (bloody) clothing removed to be washed. She was wrapped in a sheet and carried out to the car in the duffel bag. Since the car (their's or maybe hastily borrowed with an excuse that the children were sick and a trip to the drugstore was necessary) was parked in the corner of the lot (under the street light) the bag was placed in the flower bed while the car was moved closer. Then the bag was placed in the trunk. The time is now 8:20. The doctor father then drives out of the populated area, toward Bergau until a dark, secluded road was found. The time is now 8:30. The body is removed from the bag, unwrapped, laid bare in a very, very remote location. Perhaps concealed inside a large bush. The plan is that if the body was discovered, hopefully many months later, there would be nothing to connect the body to the child or the family. The sheet is placed back in the bag and the drive back to the apartment takes about 10 minutes. The time is now 8:40. While waiting for the doctor father to return the mother has been cleaning, washing the bloody clothes and then holding the stuffed toy for comfort. She has calmed herself with a couple of glasses of wine and splashed water on her face. She has very good emotional control, she is stoic. She is ready to go to dinner in order to make it appear that everything is normal, nothing out of the ordinary. On return the bag is placed behind the couch, out of sight, to be disposed of later. They are ready to leave at 8:45-8:50.
Now imagine that in the haste of the drive to hide the body something is forgotten. The bead/rubberband in the braid of her hair. It will need to be retrieved. At a later date a trip was made back to the site and the bead/band removed (with some hair) and then hidden in the boot. It was then disposed of later, far away from the site.
She is still there today....
I am leery of the reports of the blood/death scent on the patio stairs as I only read that report in a couple of places (on the Mirror board and ?) I do not recall if it was printed in a reputable Portuguese paper nor was it "leaked" from the official files, as far as I know. I remember seeing something about blood/brain matter (gross) at the bottom of the patio stairs.
Additionally, if Maddie was not in the creche on May 3rd, don't you think we would have seen some report from a MW employee to that effect? I also think that the involvement of so many of the T7 would almost guarantee a confession, eventually. Which may be in the future, of course.
Tell me your thoughts....please.
Thanks for posting your theory, food for thought indeed. I have a couple of things...
On another forum I belong to it was discussed that because of this diagram:
which shows the death scent on the front door side of the apartment (not the patio side), that perhaps the flower (seed) beds mentioned in the report were actually these:
and you will see that there is not a dog symbol representing the death scent on the patio side.
So, last night I posted a "tweaked" version of my original theory for them to consider. Here it is for your consideration as well:
One reason that a plan to conceal a body might be hatched would be because it was not an accidental death. Imagine that due to the previous night's crying a certain doctor asked his certain doctor friend if he had any suggestions on how they might be sure their child would sleep. The doctor friend might have suggested what he was using for his own children. Imagine that all the children were then given sedatives as soon as they were brought back to the apartment. Imagine then that the twins were bathed and getting sleepy, put to bed. Then it was the little girl's turn and she resisted. Did not want to take a bath, maybe the sedative had the opposite effect and she was rambunctious. Imagine at 6:37PM a certain doctor father lost his cool with his uncooperative daughter and lashed out...fatally. Imagine the panic. The child had sedatives in her bloodstream and a fracture that could not be explained as an accident. The parents hatched a plan. The planning/discussion and clean-up took place between 6:40 and 8:15 while her body lay in a duffel bag, hidden away (in a wardrobe/in front of the wardrobe).
The daughter was stripped bare and her (bloody) clothing removed to be washed. She was wrapped in a sheet and carried out to the car in the duffel bag. Since the car (their's or maybe hastily borrowed with an excuse that the children were sick and a trip to the drugstore was necessary) was parked in the corner of the lot (under the street light) the bag was placed in the flower bed while the car was moved closer. Then the bag was placed in the trunk. The time is now 8:20. The doctor father then drives out of the populated area, toward Bergau until a dark, secluded road was found. The time is now 8:30. The body is removed from the bag, unwrapped, laid bare in a very, very remote location. Perhaps concealed inside a large bush. The plan is that if the body was discovered, hopefully many months later, there would be nothing to connect the body to the child or the family. The sheet is placed back in the bag and the drive back to the apartment takes about 10 minutes. The time is now 8:40. While waiting for the doctor father to return the mother has been cleaning, washing the bloody clothes and then holding the stuffed toy for comfort. She has calmed herself with a couple of glasses of wine and splashed water on her face. She has very good emotional control, she is stoic. She is ready to go to dinner in order to make it appear that everything is normal, nothing out of the ordinary. On return the bag is placed behind the couch, out of sight, to be disposed of later. They are ready to leave at 8:45-8:50.
Now imagine that in the haste of the drive to hide the body something is forgotten. The bead/rubberband in the braid of her hair. It will need to be retrieved. At a later date a trip was made back to the site and the bead/band removed (with some hair) and then hidden in the boot. It was then disposed of later, far away from the site.
She is still there today....
I am leery of the reports of the blood/death scent on the patio stairs as I only read that report in a couple of places (on the Mirror board and ?) I do not recall if it was printed in a reputable Portuguese paper nor was it "leaked" from the official files, as far as I know. I remember seeing something about blood/brain matter (gross) at the bottom of the patio stairs.
Additionally, if Maddie was not in the creche on May 3rd, don't you think we would have seen some report from a MW employee to that effect? I also think that the involvement of so many of the T7 would almost guarantee a confession, eventually. Which may be in the future, of course.
Tell me your thoughts....please.
Oh and by the way....
Mrs. Fenn reported that Maddie cried (on the night of May 2nd) until 11:45PM "when the parents returned". Even if this was in error, she would have had to have been dead near the flower bed for at least 1.5 hours for the dogs to be able to detect the scent. I think this is especially true if the scent is outdoors. I do realize that these are special dogs however, and may be capable of detection after a much shorter period of time, even outdoors. But, under typical circumstances, she would have had to lay there until 1:15AM. I think that is a stretch...
Mrs. Fenn reported that Maddie cried (on the night of May 2nd) until 11:45PM "when the parents returned". Even if this was in error, she would have had to have been dead near the flower bed for at least 1.5 hours for the dogs to be able to detect the scent. I think this is especially true if the scent is outdoors. I do realize that these are special dogs however, and may be capable of detection after a much shorter period of time, even outdoors. But, under typical circumstances, she would have had to lay there until 1:15AM. I think that is a stretch...
Tony Bennett
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colomon,
Thank you.
If Mrs Fenn knows that the parents returned at 11.45pm on Wednesday 2nd May, then that would effectively rule out Madeleine having died by accident and then having been discovered dead by her parents later on that night when they returned fro mwherever they were boozing.
I note that elsewhere Mrs Fenn is reported to have said that she heard Kate McCann losing her temper in the apartment, on more than one occasion, though we don't know when that was.
I am not inclined to accept just on Mrs Fenn's reported word that the parents did return at 11.45pm that Wednesday night.
I accept that the 'cadaver-scent-in-the-flower-bed' report may be inaccurate.
Your theory
I've now looked at your first post and at your revised theory in post 132.
I can't go along with you because IMO a death of Madeleine at 6.30pm/7pm gives the McCanns and the Tapas 9 far too little time to come up with the abduction hoax scenario and carry it out at 10.00pm that night.
Like me, you suggest a clean-up operation. Again, there seems far too little time for that to have succeeded before 10.00pm, with the police being called in soon afterwards.
Severe doubt surrounds all eight claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May.
Gerry McCann's accounts of what he did that afternoon have varied enormoulsy.
Against your theory, surely, colomom, is David Payne's account of seeing the children being put to bed by the loving and caring parents at 7.00pm.
If Madeleine died around 6.30pm/7.00pm as you suggest, David Payne's account would be almost valueless, wouldn't it? It would only add a few minutes.
But if Madeleine died say between midnihgt and 6.00am on 3 May, then David Payne's account would establish her alive at more than 12 hours after she died.
David Payne's story, to sum up, doesn't help the McCanns if there was a rage killing at 6.30pm/7pm on 3 May, but does help the McCanns, along with other claimed 'sightings', to establish her alive for most of that day.
I also take into account the utter improbabilty of Madeleine cheerfully asking her Mummy and Daddy why they weren't there while she and Sean were sobbing the night before (and then heppily running off to play), and I regard the whole claim of Madeleine being alive at that breakfast-time very hard to accept.
I am driven therefore to conclude that she was dead by sometime during the night of 2/3 May.
If the 'cadaver-scent-on-the-flower-bed' is wrong, and Madeleine did not fall down the steps, I think another possibility is that the parents came back, found Madeleine in her bed, as they thought, asleep, then woke up the following morning in horror to find she was dead.
My theory would have to change, I think, if reports of Madeleine's blood being found beneath the tiles in the children's room were correct. It was that report that first made me think there had been a 'rage' attack by one of the parents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you.
If Mrs Fenn knows that the parents returned at 11.45pm on Wednesday 2nd May, then that would effectively rule out Madeleine having died by accident and then having been discovered dead by her parents later on that night when they returned fro mwherever they were boozing.
I note that elsewhere Mrs Fenn is reported to have said that she heard Kate McCann losing her temper in the apartment, on more than one occasion, though we don't know when that was.
I am not inclined to accept just on Mrs Fenn's reported word that the parents did return at 11.45pm that Wednesday night.
I accept that the 'cadaver-scent-in-the-flower-bed' report may be inaccurate.
Your theory
I've now looked at your first post and at your revised theory in post 132.
I can't go along with you because IMO a death of Madeleine at 6.30pm/7pm gives the McCanns and the Tapas 9 far too little time to come up with the abduction hoax scenario and carry it out at 10.00pm that night.
Like me, you suggest a clean-up operation. Again, there seems far too little time for that to have succeeded before 10.00pm, with the police being called in soon afterwards.
Severe doubt surrounds all eight claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May.
Gerry McCann's accounts of what he did that afternoon have varied enormoulsy.
Against your theory, surely, colomom, is David Payne's account of seeing the children being put to bed by the loving and caring parents at 7.00pm.
If Madeleine died around 6.30pm/7.00pm as you suggest, David Payne's account would be almost valueless, wouldn't it? It would only add a few minutes.
But if Madeleine died say between midnihgt and 6.00am on 3 May, then David Payne's account would establish her alive at more than 12 hours after she died.
David Payne's story, to sum up, doesn't help the McCanns if there was a rage killing at 6.30pm/7pm on 3 May, but does help the McCanns, along with other claimed 'sightings', to establish her alive for most of that day.
I also take into account the utter improbabilty of Madeleine cheerfully asking her Mummy and Daddy why they weren't there while she and Sean were sobbing the night before (and then heppily running off to play), and I regard the whole claim of Madeleine being alive at that breakfast-time very hard to accept.
I am driven therefore to conclude that she was dead by sometime during the night of 2/3 May.
If the 'cadaver-scent-on-the-flower-bed' is wrong, and Madeleine did not fall down the steps, I think another possibility is that the parents came back, found Madeleine in her bed, as they thought, asleep, then woke up the following morning in horror to find she was dead.
My theory would have to change, I think, if reports of Madeleine's blood being found beneath the tiles in the children's room were correct. It was that report that first made me think there had been a 'rage' attack by one of the parents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, thank you Tony....I do love a good sleuth....
I agree that Mrs. Fenn could be mistaken about what night Maddie was heard crying. That would be understandable. Do you think that all of the MW employees that would have had contact with Maddie might have been bribed? Ugh...that's huge.
Let me offer another post I made yesterday (on the other board, which you should come join, btw) which might offer some insight to the "emotional" state that night:
I can really imagine the doctor father saying "look what you caused, if only you could have kept control this would never have happened". And, "if we are found out the authorities will take the twins and throw us both in a Portuguese jail to be ravaged by the inmates, you know how they feel about child killers in jail, don't you?". And, "your parents and all your relatives and friends will disown you and you will be ruined". I can see a very scared mother, who loved her children very much, even if exhausted by them, giving into this line of thought and agreeing to go along with the plan. Especially if she had a borderline personality disorder herself. Of course, reminding her of all of this on a regular basis would be necessary.
I think the whole thing got out of control due to a certain someone's grandiose, narcissistic personality and the belief that he would never be found out, no matter how huge the lie became.
Panic and a strong personality can make things happen, IMO. I can "see" my theory happening (in my head). The clean-up operation might not be the "muriatic bath" that we have seen rumored on the forums. It might just be a bleach clean up, hence the still detectable blood traces. Translations can leave a lot to be desired. The time between "accident" and getting to the Tapas (in my theory) gives KM a half an hour to clean-up. I could do a really good clean up in that time but, not good enough so that traces were not left behind.
And David Payne....a lie. That "visit" was not suggested until months after Maddie disappeared. I believe it was suggested to "prove" that she was alive after my suggested time of demise. IMO...a lie....dismissed.
I think the story about Maddie's "unconcerned" comment to her parents about their neglect of her the previous night was an attempt to make light of the "neglect" issue. An attempt to make it seem like "no big deal". Notice that the McCanns only mention that one night and not all the other nights they left them alone. A deflection....change of focus, no guilty, neglectful parents here...
The reports of the blood found are all over the place. I read that there was blood spatter on a wall in the children's bedroom (in a fine mist that might have been deposited after a slap to a bloody face) which was not indicated in this recent diagram. And where was the blood under the tile found?? I read it was in the livingroom. And what about the spots of blood on the window sill, was that in the livingroom? And which wardrobe was the death scent detected? I read it was in the children's bedroom not the parent's bedroom.
To sleuth is a great exercise of the brain, it is difficult to be precise with such jumbled, unconfirmed, questionable information. Damn the secrecy laws anyway
But, thanks TB....keep thinking and don't give up on finding truth for this little girl. She needs all the heroes she can get.
Oh and BTW, my intuit friend says that the "rage attack" probably took place in the bathtub (shades of the Jon Benet theories).
Tony Bennett
Former Member
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Hi colomom, thanks for comments, I'm not replying in detail now, though I will soon, but first I thought you might be interested in this story which the 'Daily Telegraph' published way back in October last year:
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564725/Madeleine-McCann-'died-after-fall-down-steps'.html
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564725/Madeleine-McCann-'died-after-fall-down-steps'.html
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belimom
Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn
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Hi, all... I'm rather new to WS and haven't posted on this thread yet. But I had an idea about the whole accident theory and why the parents didn't just contact authorities and tell them the truth. They were in a country not their own, with laws they may not have fully understood. We've lived overseas in 3rd-world countries and getting in trouble with the law is not something you would want to do. Once you leave your own country, you do not carry your rights with you (i.e., "innocent until proven guilty", etc). So if it were an accident (overdose, rage, your theory of choice), then I can see how they may choose to cover it up rather than report it to authorities, as they *might* have done if in their own country. Just a thought!
Hi belimom - the Portugese LE just officially archived the investigation. I believe your reasoning is definitely reasonable. It would be scary to find yourself in such a position in a foreign country. However, the McCanns have been back in England for almost a year now and are represented by well known lawyers. They could be honest now, if their original intentions were truelly innocent.
Welcome to wesleuths - glad to have another voice in the search for Maddie.
Salem
Welcome to wesleuths - glad to have another voice in the search for Maddie.
Salem
belimom
Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn
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Thanks for the welcome! I really like it here...
And I agree - they've had plenty of time to come clean since then, if they were involved. OTOH, think of all the folks who gave BIG money to held find Madeleine, etc - I think by the time they got home, they were in too deep to just tell the truth. I guess I was thinking more of in the beginning, though...
Cuddington carol
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Here are some things I truly believe:
I believe that speculation is a lot of fun, like working on a puzzle or writing a story, and can make one feel very clever.
I believe that the McCann story is extremely interesting.
I believe that the behavior of the parents was neglectful to the point of being criminal.
I believe that a great deal of their behavior and many of the circumstances in their situation seem inexplicable and questionable.
I believe that regarding any serious crime, it is important to speculate, to question, to scrutinize, and to do so until there is an indisputable answer.
I believe that to condemn anyone either in public opinion, or in court, without conclusive, solid and certain evidence is truly wrong.
I believe that there is simply not enough evidence available to the public to conclusively lead anyone watching this story, no matter how clever he/she may be, to come to a decision which they should wholeheartedly believe.
Aside from that, here are some things I wonder about:
Wasn't there some kind of evidence made public that they never sedated the other two children - hair analysis or something? I think I recall something about that - but not sure, and like many things in this case, it could be spin... but didn't that come about at some point?
Weren't the police officials in Portugal in charge of this case also scrutinized in the media for some pretty unethical means of "wrapping up" other cases, involving some very "intense" ( for lack of a better description) questioning/investigating of "suspects"?
Why would so many people with lives and reputations to protect (the friends of the McCann's) be involved in such a conspiracy, knowing how much they have to lose, and how awful they could end up looking? Knowing a little toddler was missing, or hurt, or dead? Would the friends all really cover, as it is likely more than one would know something - even if it was just that things were not as they seemed, that the stories didn't jibe - though perhaps they could give no definite answer as to what happened. Personally, I truly love my friends, but don't think I could gloss over a kid gone missing or odd behavior or discrepencies in a story. The level of heartlessness involved from so many seems unlikley - not to mention the level of serious trouble they could get into... that alone would scare out of me the facts as I truly know them to be.
Is it not possible that someone other than the McCann's and their friends were involved in this? It doesn't seem the most likely case, given everything else we've heard, but is there anything to fully rule that out? WIthout ruling that out, can one really be sure?
Based on the prior question, is it rational to so firmly "believe" one has an answer?
And finally, here is my suspicion and opinion, which amounts to very little even in my own mind ( see the last point I made regarding "things Itruly believe"):
I think it is likely the parents are hiding something. However, I don't really know what that may be. I think that their behavior regarding her disappearance is very strange, but at the same time, I wonder if there is one, and only one, means of grieving, of dealing with a crisis, of dealing withthe humiliation of horrible parenting made public, and its consequences made public, of dealing with the media during such a crisis? No, clearly not... so I must grant them that.
I don't have all the facts. I only have various pieces of "evidence" and speculation as the media has presented, and who knows to what degree any of that is whole or real. Still, based solely on what has been presented in the media, it is hard to escape that something is up with these two... as the many theories here have examined... The smell of corpses, the traces of blood, their behavior in the media, the odd reactions of their friends, their lack of solid answers to certain questions they should be able to answer, all lead one to think something is up wth these two, and possibly a few others who know the real score... but what is up with them, I really don't know, and what that real score is, I also don't know... That said, I would not be surprised if they were found somehow responsible for their daughter's disappearance...However, unlike many here, I remain unsure.
And last but not least...
I predict we will never know, or if we do it won't be for a VERY long time. With the level of exposure, I think there would be some kind of more solid lead by now, and that given the intense interest and outrage surrounding the story, it is unliely that this would fade away in light of any real lead. I suspect she is likely dead and we won't know any time soon... This is very sad... but also the reason why the speculation should and will continue, and (scary though it may be - thank goodness this isn't a jury in a court of law) we can carry on having fun and feeling clever.
I believe that speculation is a lot of fun, like working on a puzzle or writing a story, and can make one feel very clever.
I believe that the McCann story is extremely interesting.
I believe that the behavior of the parents was neglectful to the point of being criminal.
I believe that a great deal of their behavior and many of the circumstances in their situation seem inexplicable and questionable.
I believe that regarding any serious crime, it is important to speculate, to question, to scrutinize, and to do so until there is an indisputable answer.
I believe that to condemn anyone either in public opinion, or in court, without conclusive, solid and certain evidence is truly wrong.
I believe that there is simply not enough evidence available to the public to conclusively lead anyone watching this story, no matter how clever he/she may be, to come to a decision which they should wholeheartedly believe.
Aside from that, here are some things I wonder about:
Wasn't there some kind of evidence made public that they never sedated the other two children - hair analysis or something? I think I recall something about that - but not sure, and like many things in this case, it could be spin... but didn't that come about at some point?
Weren't the police officials in Portugal in charge of this case also scrutinized in the media for some pretty unethical means of "wrapping up" other cases, involving some very "intense" ( for lack of a better description) questioning/investigating of "suspects"?
Why would so many people with lives and reputations to protect (the friends of the McCann's) be involved in such a conspiracy, knowing how much they have to lose, and how awful they could end up looking? Knowing a little toddler was missing, or hurt, or dead? Would the friends all really cover, as it is likely more than one would know something - even if it was just that things were not as they seemed, that the stories didn't jibe - though perhaps they could give no definite answer as to what happened. Personally, I truly love my friends, but don't think I could gloss over a kid gone missing or odd behavior or discrepencies in a story. The level of heartlessness involved from so many seems unlikley - not to mention the level of serious trouble they could get into... that alone would scare out of me the facts as I truly know them to be.
Is it not possible that someone other than the McCann's and their friends were involved in this? It doesn't seem the most likely case, given everything else we've heard, but is there anything to fully rule that out? WIthout ruling that out, can one really be sure?
Based on the prior question, is it rational to so firmly "believe" one has an answer?
And finally, here is my suspicion and opinion, which amounts to very little even in my own mind ( see the last point I made regarding "things Itruly believe"):
I think it is likely the parents are hiding something. However, I don't really know what that may be. I think that their behavior regarding her disappearance is very strange, but at the same time, I wonder if there is one, and only one, means of grieving, of dealing with a crisis, of dealing withthe humiliation of horrible parenting made public, and its consequences made public, of dealing with the media during such a crisis? No, clearly not... so I must grant them that.
I don't have all the facts. I only have various pieces of "evidence" and speculation as the media has presented, and who knows to what degree any of that is whole or real. Still, based solely on what has been presented in the media, it is hard to escape that something is up with these two... as the many theories here have examined... The smell of corpses, the traces of blood, their behavior in the media, the odd reactions of their friends, their lack of solid answers to certain questions they should be able to answer, all lead one to think something is up wth these two, and possibly a few others who know the real score... but what is up with them, I really don't know, and what that real score is, I also don't know... That said, I would not be surprised if they were found somehow responsible for their daughter's disappearance...However, unlike many here, I remain unsure.
And last but not least...
I predict we will never know, or if we do it won't be for a VERY long time. With the level of exposure, I think there would be some kind of more solid lead by now, and that given the intense interest and outrage surrounding the story, it is unliely that this would fade away in light of any real lead. I suspect she is likely dead and we won't know any time soon... This is very sad... but also the reason why the speculation should and will continue, and (scary though it may be - thank goodness this isn't a jury in a court of law) we can carry on having fun and feeling clever.
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