In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

concentric said:

Going to post the same question here, as in The Pontiac thread, since it may be applicable to both:

Can body decomp. fluids be absorbed UPWARDS into particle board or carpeting in the trunk?

Just wondering if she hid Caylee in the the spare tire compartment since George said that the odiferous stain was centered above that area?

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I don't know what show I was watching but a body had been decomposing in an apartment for days when it was discovered. The deceased was laying next to a wall and the decomp had created a stain a couple of feet up. The wall had acted like a wick and had drawn the fluids up.

I was probably watching something on A&E.

I have read the reports done by the Body Farm in Tenn, what was not precisely clear to me is if the 2.6 days of decomp was based on air samples or body fluids...Can somebody clear this conundrum up for me, please? If it is based on body fluid samples could that be reasonably be taken that the body could have been placed in an air tight container after the 2.6 day reading yet still be hidden in KC's car? If so when the container containing the body was moved the body gases inside the container could have belched out the noxious odors that an air sample would pick up?

TIA for any clairification

Lil'E said:

I have read the reports done by the Body Farm in Tenn, what was not precisely clear to me is if the 2.6 days of decomp was based on air samples or body fluids...Can somebody clear this conundrum up for me, please? If it is based on body fluid samples could that be reasonably be taken that the body could have been placed in an air tight container after the 2.6 day reading yet still be hidden in KC's car? If so when the container containing the body was moved the body gases inside the container could have belched out the noxious odors that an air sample would pick up?

TIA for any clairification

Click to expand...

The 2.6 days comes from the chemical makeup of the fluid residue found in the trunk liner. It does not come from the air sample.

The 2.6 days also assumes a 35 degree Celsius average temperature. The temperature during that time period was lower. However, if Caylee was in the trunk the entire time, it may have been higher. After all the car was parked on asphalt...but it was mostly cloudy at that time...and the car was white...who knows???

My best guess is 3 days, not 2.6. So, conveniently, I have Casey killing little Caylee around 3PM on the 16th and removing her from the trunk of the Pontiac around 3PM on the 19th. In between, she could have been anywhere.

TURBOTHINK said:

I have buried dogs MUCH heavier and larger than Caylee and I am about the same size as KC. I just put them in a wagon and moved them, so she could have used a backpack, duffel bag, or even a rolling duffel bag and no one would have even noticed.

Did you happen to notice how big and heavy that backpack she had on going into Baez's office? That thing had more weight in it than Caylee.

I believe she has everyone fooled about being "too frail" to dig a hole and bury her. I believe she was in good enough condition to do that with no problem. Do I think she had help - Yes, I do, but I also believe she could have done it easily by herself.

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Okay you must be strong LOL. I'm 5'3 and 105 lbs and if I hold my 3.5 year old 36 lb daughter for long my arms ache..I certainly think if I HAD to carry something heavy I could and if I had to dig a hole I could. I still don't see KC digging and burying by herself.

JWG said:

The 2.6 days comes from the chemical makeup of the fluid residue found in the trunk liner. It does not come from the air sample.

The 2.6 days also assumes a 35 degree Celsius average temperature. The temperature during that time period was lower. However, if Caylee was in the trunk the entire time, it may have been higher. After all the car was parked on asphalt...but it was mostly cloudy at that time...and the car was white...who knows???

My best guess is 3 days, not 2.6. So, conveniently, I have Casey killing little Caylee around 3PM on the 16th and removing her from the trunk of the Pontiac around 3PM on the 19th. In between, she could have been anywhere.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for making that claification JWG, it was most helpful.

Posted the following back in October. Bringing it over here for anyone interested in some details regarding a clandestine grave...hope it helps.


We lost a family pet recently so I went to the backyard to make preparations.

So...FWIW...here's what maybe relevant info:

I live near the coast w/ sandy soil conditions reasonably comparible to Orlando area
My backyard is sparsley wooded w/ pine trees
I'm male, 6' tall, 170 lbs. (for comparison to Casey's capabilities or time needed only)
I'm in good physical condition, this was a good workout...full rolling sweat w/ no breaks
I used a short-handled "ditch diggers" shovel (rounded to a point end)
Dug a shallow grave that would accomodate a 30lb pet
Final dimensions 2' x 3' x 2' deep
Ideal weather conditions: 79F, sunny, low humidity, no mosquitos
Took me exactly 30mins to dig the grave
This 30mins does not include transporting to/from, refilling w/ soil, etc.
Toughest physical challenge for Casey, IMHO, would be cutting through roots. I encountered several 3/4" diam. from pine trees and undergrowth. I got through these w/ the shovel, but, took real effort and persistance.
After cutting through root layer, digging went quickly...hence, job would go much faster in non-wooded area
Digging another 2' deeper (total 4' deep) would've taken another ~20minutes. Faster due to no roots and sandier soil. Slower if I could only use the short-handled shovel and had to dig from inside the hole vs. from above.
OK, something obvious, that's still worth noting, IMHO...the occupant of a grave lays on the bottom, hence, a body thats, say, 8" thick will only be 16" below the surface of the filled grave. A 2' grave somehow looks deeper than 2' when you're standing above it.

Some other notes FWIW:
It was very wet in Orlando in June/July, IIRC, and water would be seeping/ponding into any hole being dug more than ~1' deep.

Having/knowing the right type of shovel to use is a make-or-break for this job. For example, a flat-tipped coal shovel would make cutting through roots virtually impossible. A long-spade shovel would've double-to-tripled the duration of the job since it moves less volume. Factor this in if a receipt ever surfaces w/ a shovel on it.

...adding that over a month later now, consistent w/ the information on the SARTI website, the gravesite is still easily distinguished from the surrounding area due to the difference in soil color from the disturbance, as well as a slight depression of ~3".

JWG thank you, I thought the 2.6 days was an estimate from the early stage decomp gases picked up by the air sniffer.

I have not seen any fluid test results, or if I did, I missed the fluid parts.

Off topic. . .

OMG! I just figured out something. KC took people's garbage with her to look for their information so she could figure out how to steal from them. This is why she had AL's garbage! I always wondered why she would leave the bag of garbage in the car when she was parked at a dumpster. Doink. How slow am I?

Casey is lazy (no job) and a looks like a girly girl (XXXXX makeup, and sunglasses). I think she would have disposed of Caylee the easiest and quickest way possible. It would have been so easy for her to throw Caylee over a bridge and just drive off.
I think Casey and Cindy got into a heated argument on the 15th and Cindy gave Casey some ultimateums about the partying,boyfriends, etc. Cindy probably told Casey that if she is going to live under their roof that she will start showing some responsibility and grow up. Casey probably told her that fine...her and Caylee would leave then. George saw Casey and Caylee leave on the 16th and maybe him and Cindy didn't panic at first because they just figured Casey was mad and staying with friends to avoid Cindy.
I think Casey was already feeling burdened by Caylee and did give her a little cholorform here and there on nights she would party to make her sleep. I think that after her and Cindy's fight she lost it and thought she would go running to Toney. When she called him on the afternoon of the 16th he told her she could come over but not Caylee. I feel that she put her out with a little cholorform and put her in the trunk with the rag. That night she got the movies at Blockbuster with Toney and tried to forget all about her. The next day she discovered that she had passed away. She freaked and left her in there...went home on the 18th...backed in the garage...tried to put her somewhere in the backyard...changed her mind...moved her...that is why the dogs hit on the two spots. Also is why she borrowed the shovel. she was going to bury her...tried to dig a hole and thought it was too obvious.or too much work and put her back in the trunk of the car. Had to get rid of her quick so bought the duffle bag at penneys and put her into it...weighted it down and threw her over a bridge and peeled off.
I think she confessed to Lee and that is why we don't ever see or hear of him anymore. Also think George and Cindy know.

She backed in the garage on the 16th.

hey coley. I was going off the timeline on the sticky thread. They have always stated she backed in the garage & borrowed the shovel on the 18th. of course the story constantly changes....poor caylee...hope kc rots in jail :behindbar

JWG said:

The 2.6 days comes from the chemical makeup of the fluid residue found in the trunk liner. It does not come from the air sample.

The 2.6 days also assumes a 35 degree Celsius average temperature. The temperature during that time period was lower. However, if Caylee was in the trunk the entire time, it may have been higher. After all the car was parked on asphalt...but it was mostly cloudy at that time...and the car was white...who knows???

My best guess is 3 days, not 2.6. So, conveniently, I have Casey killing little Caylee around 3PM on the 16th and removing her from the trunk of the Pontiac around 3PM on the 19th. In between, she could have been anywhere.

Click to expand...

With the discovery of the body in a bag, with duct tape around the head and (rumor has it) around the bag as well, it appears KC had the body in her trunk more than 2.6 days. So a question comes up - when did KC put the body in the bag and where?

I have argued that little Caylee died around 3:00 PM on the 16, due to an accident while mom happily chatted and texted on the phone and simultaneously used mom and dad's desktop computer. We can argue about when and how on another thread. I will note, however, to those who think that Caylee was chloroformed and placed in KC's trunk prior to leaving for Tony's, that this report will indicate that she probably would not survive more than an hour...putting death as late as 5:00PM (give or take).

Recall that the Body Farm report assumed Florida temperatures averaged 35C during the time in question when they came up with 2.6 days. I found a weather underground station in Orland kind of / sort of in between the Anthony's and Tony's, which should provide a reasonable approximation of the temperatures KC's car would experience driving back and forth between those locations. On top of that, this station reported temperatures every 2 to 6 minutes.

I also found a forensic report that, amazingly, discussed trunk temperatures in white automobiles. In parallel, Bond found an experiment some guy did in measuring ambient air, interior, trunk, and glove compartment temperatures. The plots posted provided insight into how fast the trunk temperature would rise and fall as the air temperature warmed and cooled.

With Bond's exceptional help (he is the Excel man) I was able to create the following plot. To keep things from getting cluttered, I plotted ambient air temperature in Farenheit and Accumulated Degree Days (ADD) in Celcius. Our spreadsheet based ADD, however, on trunk temperature, not ambient temperature. Trunk temperature was higher. I thought it instructive to show ambient air temperature to give a sense of what the actual weather was like.



From this plot we can see that by assuming a 3:00 PM June 16 death the leaking decompostional fluid stops around 3:30 PM on June 19. Originally I believed this to mean that KC had discarded little Caylee at that time. However, the finding of remains in a garbage bag indicates to me that she was placed in the bag at that time.

Note that 3:30PM June 19 occurs during a period of cell phone inactivity just after pings from the Blanchard Park area are followed by a single ping near Dean and University, indicating a possible northward route (or return to Tony's).

I do not believe KC would have put the body in the bag at Tony's or a busy park like JBP. I imagine the job being messy, not fast, and suspicious (trash bag, duct tape, open trunk...). She did not travel to her parent's house that day either. So where did she do this?

JWG said:

I do not believe KC would have put the body in the bag at Tony's or a busy park like JBP. I imagine the job being messy, not fast, and suspicious (trash bag, duct tape, open trunk...). She did not travel to her parent's house that day either. So where did she do this?

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*snipped*

As always...terrific work, JWG.

My money is on this ADD-stopping-initial-bagging of the body taking place @ the Oviedo property 6/19...followed by a second-bagging of the body @ G&C's 6/20 followed immediately by disposal on Suburban Dr.

1) IMHO, Casey first bagged the body using a large trash bag from Tony's apt, hurriedly emptying some small trash bags from the larger bag into her trunk (only one was left in the trunk by 7/15). The body may have initially been in a cloth duffle/sheets or something similar that was not leakproof. This effectively stopped the ADD clock 6/19 ~3:30PM and IMHO took place @ the Oviedo property. The cloth duffle/sheets, etc. likely remained on the body inside the initial bag.

2) IMHO, Casey returned to G&C's 6/20 and performed a more thorough second bagging w/ duct tape, etc., then disposed of the body on Suburban Dr. as she left 1:51-2:18PM. The cloth duffle/sheets, etc. and the initial bag likely remained on the body inside the second bag.

3) Off-topic, but, related. IMHO, Casey disposed of remaining bags of decomp contaminated clothing from the trunk of the Pontiac 6/27AM before leaving it @ Amscot (w/ plans to recover it 6/30).

Great work as usual to both JWG and BondJamesBond. This works. There was a media report about something smelly found in a wooded area off a road that would have been on one of Casey's normal routes. I am having trouble finding it because I can not remember the name of the road. Searches found something in the hollowed out part of a tree root and there were claims of bones and then later reports said bags of smelly stuff no bones and then we never heard anything about it. There was also some confusion if it was someone from TES or a seperate group and something about a forensic person made a statement but then no they didn't. [I know, not very much helpful info]
Does that ring a bell to anyone. I believe ping locations may have been reviewed at the time but my memory is fuzzy. Just wondering if this would fit within the time line and possible locations that she would have been 6/27 and the comment made by Casey "They haven't even found her clother yet"

EDIT. Information provided by BondJamesBond
Find on Sunderson Dr. 11/10.
More information on that find and this speculation located @ http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...=animal&page=3 Post #66 is a good place to start w/ Post #72 providing a summary.

shadow of my mind said:

Does that ring a bell to anyone. I believe ping locations may have been reviewed at the time but my memory is fuzzy. Just wondering if this would fit within the time line and possible locations that she would have been 6/27 and the comment made by Casey "They haven't even found her clother yet"

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*snipped*

Thanks for the kind words, Shadow.

I just updated the "6/27 only" thread in the Sticky Forum w/ links to the find you are referencing as it relates to item (3) of my post above. The location was Sunderson Rd and you'll see my comments on 6/27 thread.

I have done an analysis on the ADD estimate provided in the report released on analysis of decomposition gases present in KC's trunk. In the report the maximum estimated ADD (Accumulated Degree-days) was estimated at 2.6 days (62.4 hours) based on a constant temperature of 35C (95F). However, the days from June 16th onward were slightly cooler than this and so I wanted to see how this would change the calendar days that Caylee's body could have been in the trunk.

Assumptions:

I have assumed that Caylee's body was placed in the trunk some where around 4:00 p.m. on 06/16. This corresponds with the time that KC's cell phone activity went into rapid-fire mode.

I have assumed that Caylee's body remained in the trunk until it was permanently removed. (i.e. not moved out and then back in)

I have assumed the temperature in the trunk to be that of the ambient outside temperature and have not added or substracted any convective/radiant heat additions or losses. I have also assumed no lag between change in temperature within the trunk relative to change in outside temperature.

I have assumed that at no time over the period analyzed the temperature fell below the threshold temperature for decomposition to continue (i.e. it was always warm enough for the body to continuously decompose.)

Methodology:

I used historical data for the days analyzed from Weather Underground.

I averaged the temperature for each hour beginning at 3:53 pm on 06/16/08.

I calculated ADD per hour to refine the analysis since the important question comes down to the hour, versus just half days or full days.

Since it is assumed the threshold temperature was always met and exceeded, the difference in the rate of decomposition between the actual average temperature of a given hour and that hour at 35 C will reduce to the ratio of T(actual)/35.

The new temperature-adjusted decomposition rate was then subtracted from the total maximum ADD listed in the report (62.4 hours) until that total was reached.

It is noted that the report states that the ADD may have very well been less than 2.6 (62.4 hours).

Results:

The following graphics split the spreadsheet I created into three sections. The 2.6 days at 95F (35C) is noted in the third section, as well as the equivalent ADD for the actual temperatures. In addition, it is noted that 1:30 p.m. 06/19/08 falls within the envelope of the original ADD at the higher constant temperature and the new ADD using actual temperatures.





Conclusion:

BB was unable to remember if the shovel incident occurred on 06/18/08 or 06/19/08, but was fairly certain that it was around 1:30 p.m. Based on this analysis of an adjusted actual time period to arrive at the same level of decomposition as estimated in the official report, it appears that the shovel incident may have occurred at 1:30 p.m. on 06/19/08. Based on this information one could assume that in some relatively short timeframe after the shovel incident, the body was removed from the trunk permanently.

EDIT NOTE: After reading JWG's work in the other thread and discussing in this thread about the pings and rainfall. I believe the above conclusion about BB's account being on the 19th is incorrect. It appears the shovel incident occurred on the 18th. Since both my adjusted ADD data and JWG's adjusted ADD data shows the decomposition evidence being up to the latter half of the 19th, this would mean that whatever KC did on the 18th (during the shovel period) did NOT seal the body off from the trunk.

I look forward to reading your review of this work and any thoughts you may be able to add to this.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Wow valhal Thanks soooooooo much !
Grrrrrreat work...
this helps !
&
Appreciate your hard work & helping to bring ~JUSTICE~ for
Little Angel CAYLEEE !

God Bless !
jjgram

Great work Valhal!

So with the humidity and the high temps. during the day the stain is making real sense to me in a most horrific way. It also makes the smell thing most believable to any potential juror. You don't need science to "get it".

That was brilliant. I hope the DA is paying attention...

Awesome job! My brain is not of the scientific kind - but I love the way you spelled it all out! I hope the DA reads our threads! Maybe this would be useful in their presentation to help the jury understand this is more than just "junk science".

Great job, Val!!!
This definately puts things into perspective. Thinking about whatever she did to Caylee...and then stuffing her in the trunk like she was nothing, in those hot temperatures. Ugh. :furious: