Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

Paintr said:

I have a difficult time combining Caylee's death, the duct tape and the heart sticker. I have no trouble seeing KC killing Caylee and applying the duct tape but the picture of KC placing the heart sticker with love and/or remorse just won't form for me.

Is it possible that someone else knew of Caylee's death shortly after it happened, either by KC telling, or by them surprising KC with the body? If that someone had some regard for Caylee, they may have taken a last look at her and placed the sticker as a goodbye? Then they could have sent KC out to dispose of the body with orders not to return until she did. KC could have botched the disposal job but now if she goes down so goes anyone who knew.

OK don't everyone shoot at once. It is just a thought. :truce:

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ibyoungr said:

I can see the duct tape and sticker put on BEFORE or AFTER.

If I vision Casey killing Caylee, in a before scenario, I see her giving her something to make her sleepy like (muscle relaxers?) then taping her mouth after she is asleep and then suffocating her. Then applying the heart sticker.

If I vision Casey killing Caylee, in a after scenario, I see her going into a rage,(like the one in the Aug 14th vid) suffocating her for 30-60 seconds till Caylee passes out and then continuing to suffocate until she is dead and then puts the tape on to start her pre-meditated plan to "blame it on a nanny kidnapping." She puts on the sticker during the burial process as a way to say "ah sorry sweetheart, mommy did love you but now you are of no use to me."

Either way, I see a pattern of behavior that has played out many, many times between Cindy, George and Casey. A fit, accusations, questions... etc.. then an "It's okay, sweetheart." I see over and over where they probably did have a fight and then moments later... "Well sweetheart, whadda mean it is my fault... if you wouldn't have lied." "Oh, I know sweetheart, I know you did not mean anything by it."
I just see Casey's rage and then the "I am sorry, sweetheart, mommy knows you did not mean to make her mad." Insert sticker before bagging.

I see this with Casey and Cindy's reactions to each other.

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Chezhire said:

She's one sick person. Scary sick. She was planning on having Amy move into that house with her...

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Friday said:

For many weeks, your accidental drowning theory was exactly my theory, too, Devon. However, as time passed and evidence was released, including videos of the A's jail visits, I've had to change my mind.

Knowing what I now know about KC and CA's personalities, and their relationship, I cannot imagine KC assuming ANY responsibility whatsoever for the pool ladder being left up, resulting in Caylee's accidental drowning. Even if CA had specifically told KC to put the ladder away the night of June 15th, KC would have denied hearing that and/or blamed CA for putting it there in the first place. As soon as KC discovered Caylee in that pool, she'd have gotten Cindy on the phone and gone on the attack even before she called 911!

Even if KC didn't do that back in June, she'd certainly have turned on Cindy and blamed her for the pool ladder in July as soon as she was arrested and lawyered up. Once KC told that "truth" to Baez, he'd have been telling this story to LE and the media. KC has a venomous love-hate relationship with Cindy, and she wouldn't spend one day in jail to spare her mother. Furthermore, if KC had told the story about wanting to shield Cindy from knowing Cindy was responsible for Caylee drowning, KC would have looked like a saintly, devoted daughter, and a tragic mother.

And even if KC hadn't come up with that story while in jail, she surely would have worked it out with Cindy when she was home on bond. That explanation would have made Caylee's death accidental, and the whole tale would have ended then and there--with an outpouring of public sympathy for all the A's.

There was just one obstacle to that--one loose end that made this accidental drowning alibi completely implausible and impossible for the A's to pull off: The police would have insisted on knowing what KC did with Caylee's body.

The answer would have turned out to be, in essence: "Well, I wrapped duct tape around her head, then I bagged her up in double garbage bags and drove around with her in my trunk for a few days, while I stayed at my new boyfriend's apartment and partied with friends.

Her body started getting lumpy and icky in the bags, so I went by my parents' house and got a laundry basket and plopped her into that, too. Some of her had leaked out into my trunk, so I decided I needed to get her out of there before my trunk was ruined or someone saw her there. Finally, I decided to dump her in the woods behind my house where people dump old tires and trash. I'll show you where she is, but it might be flooded, or animals may have dragged her off. Oh, and we'll have to be careful of big snakes...."​

There is an inhuman heartlessness in KC's treatment of her own daughter's dead body that completely negates the possibility that she would try to shield anyone other than herself from blame. I also think that even she recognized that no one else would ever be able to "understand" or overlook her treatment and disposal of Caylee's remains.

For what it's worth, because of the ladder being found by the pool with the gate open, I still think that KC either deliberately drowned Caylee, or that immediately after Caylee died, KC attempted to make it look like a drowning, then gave up that plan for some reason.

Any further thoughts, Devon.

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Friday said:

I don't disagree with any of your comparisons of Cindy and KC, except that I think KC is completely devoid of conscience and the ability to love. I think Cindy has at least a limited amount of both. Example 1: KC had no qualms about stealing from her elderly GMA Shirley, but Cindy was furious and conscience stricken enough to replace the money. Example 2: KC was completely unemotional about the death of her own adorable child; Cindy on the phone during that 911 call was in a state of frantic, anguished torment over what she thought was a kidnapping, not even Caylee's death.

I know there are a lot of intelligent dissenters here who firmly believe Cindy knew more than she let on, prior to making that last 911 call. I, however, will go to my death believing that everything about Cindy was authentic at that point, including her terror and heartbreak and shock.

After the point at which she hung up that phone--and her mind quickly focused on the situation--I wouldn't bet 10 cents on the authenticity or innocence of anything else she said or did.



You could be right, my friend, :blowkiss: but I cannot fathom KC sitting still for that (unless she hasn't seen a single clue--by word or deed--that this is their desire.)
I can, however, see KC trying to throw them under the bus.



Was that before Caylee's remains were found? Because before that time--when I had despaired they would ever be found--I used to think KC either had an evil genius or the devil's own luck for getting away with murder. For example, by staying under the radar for those 31 days, her movements could no longer be traced by sidewalk ATM surveillance cameras, etc. It used to drive me crazy! :banghead:

However, with the discovery and the location of the remains together with some of the damning evidence that could easily have been removed--i.e., a laundry bag identical to the one at the A's home, I've come around to the opinion that Casey isn't smart at all. Quite the opposite. Now, I find it hard to imagine that she could have found anyone to help her who was even "less smart" than she about it. (I'm avoiding name calling so I don't get a time out. LOL)

Hopefully we will find out the whole truth by the end of the trial. Call me an incurable optimist, right? :blowkiss:



You're right. But proof again, I think, that CA merely assumed KC wanted to continue quarrelling. Early on, when I was still an "innocent" trying to make sense of KC's and CA's stories but believing them, I used to agonize over that flurry of calls KC made to GA and CA on June 16. I thought she was frantically trying to reach them to tell them what had happened to Caylee and to ask for help--but they were still ticked off with her from the night before and didn't answer her.

I agonized over the whole "if only" bit -- "If only KC would have left them messages, instead of immediately hanging up and calling their other phone numbers. If only..."

That phase of mine ended the night KC got on the phone with 911 and demanded LE send police officers to get rid of the "punk" protestors. That's when it hit me--if KC had actually wanted to talk to her mother on June 16, she'd have called the main phone number and commanded whoever answered it to get her mother on phone immediately because there was an emergency with Caylee.

Enough already. I've forgotten the topic. :blowkiss:

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OneLostGrl said:

I said it before and I'll say it again, I wish I knew half of the things you do, Friday!

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Originally Posted by JWG

I am not exactly sure if the Google ping maps were created from the spreadsheet or from the raw ATT records. Georgia PI did all of that work solo , and given the very few errors found in the ping maps, I am guessing the raw records were used. Dates, times, and latitude / longitude were needed for this work - phone numbers were not.

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• Did Casey apply the duct tape & heart to Caylee to keep her quiet until Cindy left after the possible fight between the 2 as the last event of 6/15 that ended w/ Casey going into the bedroom and closing/slamming/locking the door?

• That Casey received the call from Tony @ 11:47 after 3 hours of inactivity allows us to consider that she may have employed the duct tape to enable her to catch some z's after she uploaded the Photobucket pics.

:waitasec: That's possible. That option woulda left Casey with discovering a dead Caylee whilst George was up and about and before he left for work. Casey woulda been doing whatever she had to in order to keep George at bay. Can't rule this out entirely. George's call home @ 3:03PM coulda been to check on an allegedly 'sick' Caylee that was 'resting' in bed...not to be disturbed. FWIW, the ADD on this option doesn't give a stellar bagging date & time (mid-morning 6/19 whilst near Tony's apt.).

Consider also, during this timeframe Casey has two phone conversations w/ Tony (19 & 14mins each) and @ 1:44PM (before George woulda left for work) Casey placed a call to Amy and talked for 36mins before Casey switched over to take an incoming call from Jesse - aparrently the result of a text exchange the two had before Casey called Amy. While its possible Casey did all of this from her bedroom, it does seem she was pretty otherwise occuppied if keeping George @ bay was paramount.

IIRC, computer forensics show some surfing that afternoon ~3PM, which might be worth another look. If we look @ all of the above, once George FINALLY left the house...if Casey knew she had a dead Caylee on her hands, IMHO, it seems highly unlikely her first George-free hour to act would be spent surfing, etc. nline: Worth another look...:sleuth:...what was she interested in that afternoon?​

Searchfortruth said:

as for the cell phone pings, do you all think she disposed of Caylee on the 18th ?

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Another one, can LE put her at the area where the body was found, via cell phone pings, vs. the A home ? They are so close, I am worried about that.

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JWG said:

This may be a bit OT fftopic:for this thread, but hopefully it will clear up a lot of questions.

There are two resources out there compiled by WS'ers: a cell phone spreadsheet and a set of Google ping maps. They are different resources but were built from the same set of discovery: KC's ATT cell phone records released in late September.

** Warning - boring detail ahead **

I came into the effort very late, after all the hard work was done, as is my practice. :crazy: It is my understanding ElizaAvalon did the initial OCR (optical character recognition) work on the ATT records using a function built into the Professional version of Adobe Acrobat. I am assuming that (I have not asked her) because I have used the same function on the same records and got the same results - mistakes and all.

The program is not perfect. The scanned copies are, quite frankly, very poor. Lots of random specs and blotches, poorly alined pages, blurred pages. As a result, the software might think a vertical line is a "1", a "6" is a "G", a zero is an "O", and a whole lotta other bizarre errors. A lot of problems were due to the fact that Adobe wanted to recognize characters by column on one page and then by row on another. This caused incredible chaos when doing the 'ol cut-n-paste into Excel. :doh:

Needless to say, there were literally thousands of scan errors among the millions of characters scanned. Eliza, TexasLil, Bond, and several others AFAIK set out to manually locate and correct those errors. :sleuth: As I said, I came in late after a lot of that work was done, but I still ran into many errors on my own, typically with call records misaligned to the incorrect time and sometimes date.

The spreadsheet is more than the phone records. The team also identified subscriber information and tied it to phone numbers. This was done using a combination of discovery documents (not every media outlet redacts documents), reverse white pages, and good 'ol dial-the-number-and-see-who-answers. :highfive:

We added the detailed cell tower locations over time, and even later folded in the direction of the cell antennas. :sonar:

Bond then built a sheet that took all the sources of information and made it readable. Phone numbers were replaced with names, tower coordinates with location names, and LAC-CID ID's with compass directions. :bullseye:

All this being said, the WS cell spreadsheet is not the only one out there nor was it the first. I found several on Docstoc before finding out WSer's were passing another around. I pursued the one Eliza assembled because it seemed the most accurate, FWIW. Not sure what QS was working from back in October. :whistle:

Fortunately, in the latest discovery, the prosecution released the raw spreadsheet ATT gave to OCSO containing the phone records. Bond and I just today replaced the original raw data that had been scanned and manually-corrected with this new spreadsheet. Incredibly, this made very little difference to the details - testifying to the careful work already done by the spreadsheet team. Now, however, we can be confident in our results.:thumb:

I am not exactly sure if the Google ping maps were created from the spreadsheet or from the raw ATT records. Georgia PI did all of that work solo :clap:, and given the very few errors found in the ping maps, I am guessing the raw records were used. Dates, times, and latitude / longitude were needed for this work - phone numbers were not.

** Mercifully end of boring detail **

All that being said, both the older and latest version of the spreadsheet, as well as the Google ping map for June 15, all show KC is at Tony's from 9:15AM to 7:10PM on June 15. All pieces of discovery I can locate with cell records support this assertion. When in doubt, go back to the discovery docs. :snooty:

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BondJamesBond said:

Ask 1,000 peeps & you'll get 1,000 answers

My :twocents: 6/19 ~8PM

*snipped*

Three part answer:

a) the disposal site is 0.25mile from G&C's house. Since they are so close the cell pings can't distinguish the location of Casey's phone one vs. the other

...however...

b) the pings can & do place Casey in the area that includes these locations on a handful of occassions post-6/16

...and...

c) to establish if Casey was in this location @ the time the body was disposed the ADD (accumulated degree days) from the forensics in the trunk may be factored in if the date & time of death is determined (say, by a theory...or ultimately forensics) and the body was disposed very shortly after it was bagged (vs. driving around with it bagged for an extended period of time). This gets complicated fast...so I'll leave it at that for now. Suffice it to say, (read the 6/23 ping thread if interested), there's some decent evidence to support the body was outta the trunk pre-6/20. Other evidence that has not been released may exist to better specify both the date & time of death (e.g. blowflies) and the date of disposal (e.g. forensic botany).

Hope that helps.

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