UT - Ethan Stacy, 4, Layton, 10 May 2010 - #5

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Let's say DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is what the defense uses - that means they are looking for the 'guilty but mentally ill' (GBMI) verdict. The sentencing would be the same as a 'guilty' verdict, only the criminal will be evaluated for tx. and sent to a forensic mental health prison for a possible cure. Unlike insanity, if he is ever cured, this criminal will be sent to a regular prison to serve out the rest of his sentence. If never cured he will be in the mental health prison for treatment. The forensic mental health facility is very much like a prison in that it is highly secure, maybe more so, but with tx. Hardly a piece of cake. Either way, if a GBMI verdict is issued by the jury the criminal has to serve out his sentence in one of two places - forensic mental health facility or prison or both.

IMO Nate would absolute hate the high security of a forensic mental health facility - I have a difficult time seeing him in tx for the rest of his life - his need to control and manipulate is far too great.

On the other hand: DID is difficult to treat and can take years. Medications are given based on the symptoms available to the Dr,. Taking into consideration the level of forensic psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, available for treatment in the forensic facility, IMO he would spend the rest of his life in such a facility or be begging to go into the prison system.

Either way he will serve out his sentence, Insanity would put the person into a forensic mental health prison until restored to sanity and he/she is released - sentence is over. Not the case for GBMI.

If Nate has a diagnosis of DID from a psychiatrist, hopefully board certified, experts will have to show why this type of rampage never happened prior to this and what triggered it.

Most importantly, the jury has to buy it! All just my opinions.

ETA: The APA (American Psychiatric Association) does not advocate for this defense of (GBMI), and my expectations are that the prosecution will put up some expert witnesses regarding DID - there are plenty of psychiatrists who don't feel this is a legitimate diagnosis.

TY so much eyes! This is how I thought, but feel much better that you confirmed. Do you know if the death penalty is sought AND a GBMI verdict is reached, does that nullify the death penalty? Or would they go from tx to death row (of course, if convicted). I didn't know how that worked. TIA.
 
I just do not feel that NS has clinically diagnosed multiple personality disorder. I may be wrong, maybe some medical information will come out eventually. IMO he AND SS are sociopaths. They both share equal responsibility for the death of this precious child.
Well, remember, I believe that SS said in her wedding page that, "you can always have another child". IMO Ethan was expendable to them. He was in the way of their obsessive love pact.
NS required unbridled attention and complete control - little Ethan wanted his Daddy. Therefore, NS was compelled to beat that child to have his control.
Unfortunately, poor Ethan's little body could not take it.
Nope. Not multiple personality disorder. Cruel, heartless fatal abuse from a monster.:furious:

bbm. I think someone else brought this up too, but maybe he was part of their 'pact'. NS lost his daughter, they lost the twins, so maybe it is only fair for her to lose Ethan? Then they could continue with a 'clean slate' so to speak. Jmo and I think I just :sick: a little bit. ugh.
 
bbm. I think someone else brought this up too, but maybe he was part of their 'pact'. NS lost his daughter, they lost the twins, so maybe it is only fair for her to lose Ethan? Then they could continue with a 'clean slate' so to speak. Jmo and I think I just :sick: a little bit. ugh.

I think they are both sociopathic monsters who did this to get *even* with Joe. I think it was premeditated and from the moment that took him onto that plane, poor little Ethan was doomed to be brutalized and murdered.

One thing that I think will help the prosecution is that these POSs didn't have any qualms whatsoever appearing in public during these 10 days or so. I hope LE is scouring every possible surveillance tape from every possible angle. Starting with airport surveillance when she was preparing to board in FL. Here, family and such are no longer allowed to be at the gate; ticketed passengers only. I want to know how her demeanor toward Ethan changed once she'd taken him out of Joe's sight. I want to hear from witnesses --- passengers and crew--- who flew with them to Utah. I want Mr. Rawlings to obtain videos from the courthouse the day little Ethan lay locked in that hellhole, battered and dying while those two POSs got married.

I have no doubt whatsoever this man is going to be beyond thorough, and will put it all out there, constructing a picture of pure unadulterated evil.
 
TY so much eyes! This is how I thought, but feel much better that you confirmed. Do you know if the death penalty is sought AND a GBMI verdict is reached, does that nullify the death penalty? Or would they go from tx to death row (of course, if convicted). I didn't know how that worked. TIA.

monkeymama - that's such an interesting question. I don't know! GMBI verdict is such that the guilty party receives tx as to restore or cure to normal and go on to finish his sentence. If it's life without parole, that time will be served. The DP - ?? why bother curing the criminal from a mental illness only to fry him? I'll have to Google that one. Would make no sense.

Can you imagine Nate, the guy who thinks he is so intelligent and a knight in shining armor, the soul mate, the torturer, the murderer, manipulator who must have power and control over his surroundings spending the rest of his life being tx for DID? It's not like he will have other convicted criminals to share his diagnosis with - personally, I think he would go crazy with that verdict by the jury. That's a difficult diagnosis to sell a jury especially when they see the pictures of burnt, smashed, and tortured Ethan. I'm not a death penalty advocate so I would be thrilled to have him behind bars, prison or forensic mental health, for the rest of his life. moo

Wonder what Stephanie's defense will be - that she was controlled by the different personalities of his DID? I want them both behind bars for the rest of their living, breathing days. moo
 
According to this, in Utah, the official verdict is "guilty but insane" and treatment is discretionary, not mandatory.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/states.html

What happens in states where there is no insanity defense?

Three states -- Montana, Idaho, and Utah -- do not allow the insanity defense. Defendants must still be found competent to stand trial, and they may introduce evidence of a mental disease or defect as evidence that they did not possess the requisite intent or state of mind (mens rea) to be found guilty.
------------
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/hinckleyinsanity.htm

Because psychiatric testimony played a large role in Hinckley's trial and ultimate verdict, the reliability of using such testimony came under attack in the wake of the trial. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) issued a statement after the trial acknowledging public skepticism of "the nature and the quality of psychiatric testimony in insanity trials." The APA also stated that it would not oppose laws restricting the use of such testimony in insanity cases. In 1984, Congress enacted a statute stating that:

"No expert witness testifying with respect to the mental state or condition of a defendant in a criminal case may state an opinion or inference as to whether the defendant did or did not have the mental state or condition constituting an element of the crime charged or a defense thereto. Such ultimate issues are for the trier of fact alone."

By 1986, three states had abolished the use of the insanity defense altogether. These states, Montana, Idaho, and Utah, continue to admit evidence of mental disorder for the restricted purpose of disproving mens rea, or, in other words, proving that a defendant did not possess the special knowledge or intent required for conviction under the charged offense. The American Medical Association supports the abolition of the insanity defense.

----------

An article that defends the use of the insanity defense.

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1325&context=lawfaculty

"Guilty But Mentally Ill":

The Real Verdict is Guilty


Linda C. Fentiman

Pace University School of Law, LFentiman@law.pace.edu

Assistant Professor of Law, Suffolk University Law School; B.S. Cornell University 1970, J.D. State University of New York at Buffalo Law School 1975, L.L.M. Harvard University Law School 1983.


Even before the verdict was reached in the Hinckley trial, public concern in recent years that the insanity defense was being used as a loophole by which the guilty were escaping punishment had persuaded two state legislatures, in Montana and Idaho, to eliminate the insanity defense altogether. Moved by the same concern, twelve states - Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, and Utah - enacted statutes providing for an alternative verdict of "guilty but mentally ill" whenever a defendant asserts the insanity defense.
 
As of 2002:

The authors reviewed the statutes governing sentencing of GBMI convicts in the 14 states permitting the verdict. No state requires mitigation of sentence as a result of a verdict of GBMI, and such a verdict does not prevent even the death penalty.

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/30/4/553.pdf
 
Perry v. Louisiana

"The Louisiana Supreme Court ordered an insane defendant on death row to be medicated against his will in order to render him sane, and therefore capable of being executed."

http://supreme.justia.com/us/498/38/case.html

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/1990/1990_89_5120

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=494&invol=210

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=12186078&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google


IMO, this wouldn't even apply to NS or SS. Neither fit the legal definition of "insane", and there is no evidence that either is psychotic.
 
A criminal defense asserting that at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense. U.S.C. 18


This is because willfull intent is an essential part of most offenses; and a person who is insane is not capable of forming such intent. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense; the person has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d029.htm

By their actions and statements (locking Ethan up to protect themselves from being reported for abuse, refusing to allow Joe to speak to Ethan, mutilating his dead body to prevent identification, lying to police about him being 'missing', etc.) they clearly understood "the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of [their] acts".

IMO, I don't see them being convicted of "guilty but insane".
 
I just spoke with a VERY nice lady at the funeral home.

She said the date they had been told of his death when arrangements were made was Saturday the 8th. However, as she was working to get the obit up and online, she said she thought she'd better confirm that and called the funeral home in Utah that was handling arrangements for his transfer back to Virginia. They told her the temporary death certificate stated he was found (and therefore pronounced) on May 11th. She said that when someone is found, the date they're found and pronounced always is listed on the initial (temporary is what she called it) death certificate until a definitive date is determined, if possible. She thanked me for bringing that to her attention, she'd not been aware and said that the date had been changed to reflect what the temporary certificate stated but they'd not changed the day to Tuesday. She said that she couldn't change that now, but would pass the info on to someone in the morning so they could do so.

She said Ethan was brought back home today. She said they were at the Knoxville airport at 6 am this morning to pick him up.

While talking to her, I could tell she was broken up over this, and I heard phones going off in the background. I know from my experience with funeral homes in this area, especially the smaller ones, they don't staff on weekends and nights but rather have someone on call to return calls. My prayers go out to these folks as well.

Of interest is that they were told Ethan died on Saturday May 8th. I won't state outright why I believe that to be true based upon my conversation with her, but read what I wrote above and draw your own conclusions.

BBM

This is the same way my BIL's death certifcate was here in FL. Although he died several days earlier the temporary listed the DOD as the day his body was found. In our case the date remained the same on the final one also.
 
BBM

This is the same way my BIL's death certifcate was here in FL. Although he died several days earlier the temporary listed the DOD as the day his body was found. In our case the date remained the same on the final one also.

I'm sorry for your loss, cher. I suppose if they can't determine for sure the date someone has died, then they have to stay with the date they were found. In this case, you have POSs telling police he died on Sunday, but how they describe it clearly indicates he died at the very latest the day before. I know the ME uses evidence collected, witness statements, etc., to make their determination, but for this, I wonder if they must use only physical evidence from the body itself to state time / date of death?
 
I'm sorry for your loss, cher. I suppose if they can't determine for sure the date someone has died, then they have to stay with the date they were found. In this case, you have POSs telling police he died on Sunday, but how they describe it clearly indicates he died at the very latest the day before. I know the ME uses evidence collected, witness statements, etc., to make their determination, but for this, I wonder if they must use only physical evidence from the body itself to state time / date of death?

Thanks Calliope. I wonder too if they will take the 's word for the acutal date, I know I wouldn't.

Anyone rememeber on other cases what dates were used? Seems like on another case (can't remember which) they used the date the victim was last seen alive.
 
Bumping up while waiting for further news. We will not forget you Ethan.
 
Dear Mommy,
I didn’t want to come to Utah
I’ll miss my daddy so
I don’t have any friends here
But, the judge told my daddy I had to go.

by
Stephanie Johnson-Hart
*used with permission

*snipped*
Where are the tissues? That is beautiful and heart wrenching. :(
 
Thanks Calliope. I wonder too if they will take the 's word for the acutal date, I know I wouldn't.

Anyone rememeber on other cases what dates were used? Seems like on another case (can't remember which) they used the date the victim was last seen alive.

I'm remembering a few cases where the date the body was found is the date of death. Can't imagine the ME giving any credence to what these two murderers have to say about death. I want to take Steph and Nate and push them as far away from this child's final tributes as possible. I wish they could await trial while on another planet. moo
 
I agree that they did those things….
I don't agree that they should be found guilty by reason of mental illness...
but IMO IF all the stories that are coming out are true.... especially in the one
where it states that he was diagnosed with multiple personalities…. then I
think they do have a good chance of being found guilty but mentally ill.

That is my fear….

"Guilty but mentally ill" doesn't usually have an effect on sentencing. A person found guilty but mentally ill is sent to jail the same as someone found guilty.
 
This is off topic. But I wanted to add about the date of death being the date found. In 1992 my bio father died. He was living out in the country (rural area) in a MH on his Mother's property (she had died about 5 or so yrs prior IIRC).

It was estimated that he had died in April of that year sometime. However, he was found in June. So his DC states he died on the day he was found.

But I think the difference here is that the ME will be able to tell within a few hours of when Ethan passed. They may very well modify the DC that is documented by the state? That makes sense.
 
"Guilty but mentally ill" doesn't usually have an effect on sentencing. A person found guilty but mentally ill is sent to jail the same as someone found guilty.

The GBMI verdict assumes treatment will be part of the prison term, right? Can this verdict be given to a psychopath where no treatment has ever been found to be effective? TIA MOO

Also, can the jury give the GBMI verdict along with the death penalty? And if so, why give a mentally ill person tx only to put him/her to death. I find that confusing and would appreciate any input you may have. TIA
 
Dear Mommy,
I didn’t want to come to Utah
I’ll miss my daddy so
I don’t have any friends here
But, the judge told my daddy I had to go.

But, I think that we’ll have fun together-
Maybe we can go to the park?
Maybe we can watch cartoons
Or play hide and seek in the dark.

Maybe we can bake a cake
Or we can play on the slide
Or you know I like to color and draw-
We can use chalk on the street outside.

Mommy, I didn’t mean to fall
And drop your plate and make it shatter.
I was running too fast to help clean up
I’m sorry … the reason doesn’t matter.

Mommy, please – I’m really sorry
I will always do what you say
Or I know that I’ll get slapped again.
But, he seems to do it anyway.

Mommy, I’m sorry that I can’t stop crying
I’ll go straight to bed.
I just can’t help it… I’m so tired
Please tell him to stop hitting my head.

Mom, stop taking pictures-
I just don’t feel like I can smile.
Mom, can I please have some medicine?
My head’s been hurting for a while.

Mommy I’m sorry that I got so dirty
And, I know that it’s a lesson I have to learn.
Please let me out of this bath tub
It’s hot and my legs are starting to burn.

Mom, is that my dad on the phone?
Can I please tell him hi?
I promise I won’t tell him your boyfriend hurts me-
And, I promise I won’t cry.

Mom, please let me out of here.
I’m hungry and tired and sad.
Can I please have some dinner?
Just a little bit- I promise I won’t make you mad.

Mommy, where are you?
I need you to help me please.
Mommy…PLEASE… I need your help
I am begging on my knees.

Mommy, I think I’m tired now
I have no more tears to cry.
I probably won’t wake up this time
So, this is my goodbye-

Mommy- I am just so little
And, I didn’t mean to make you mad.
I’m going up to heaven now-
And, really….I’m kind of glad.

But, mom, one thing before I go
I just need to say-
Please tell my dad I love him.
But, I will be okay.

I am going to heaven now.
And I won’t hurt anymore.
I will smile and run around
And I will be able to act like I’m four.

Please-I never got to tell my dad
And, I just want him to be sure-
That he knows, that I know, that I was his world
And he tried to protect me from who he knew you were.

Mother- I can’t stay awake anymore
My eyes are closing…I can’t see.
I wonder if you will be shown the mercy
That you were never able to show me.

Tell my dad I’m sorry I couldn’t come home.
But I am going to heaven today.
But, I’ll be watching him from up above
And I’ll show him I’m there in my very own way.

He’ll see my smile in the sunshine
He’ll feel my warmth from it’s rays.
I will wait in heaven for him.
Until it’s his time to come this way.

Please bless my dad, and those who will cry
Because I am leaving earth this way.
Please thank them for their love and ask them
To please help get justice for kids like me today.

Love,

Ethan

by
Stephanie Johnson-Hart
*used with permission



Oh My! There are no words.
 
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