TH's polygraphs

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Q: Can you describe how Terri Horman handled the polygraph requests? I believe you have said to others that Terri walked out of a second polygraph, and then waited about 10 days before taking a third? Can you clarify this for us?

A: She fully cooperated and took the first polygraph then subsequently vented her failed results to all family, friends, and law enforcement at the house. A few days later she cooperated and went to take a second polygraph test but got up and walked out before the machine portion of the test could be administered... again by her own statement to family, friends, and law enforcement at the house ...She continually pushed back and refused to repeat the second test for several days (approx. 8-10) before going to take the test and then once again coming back to the house and venting to all listeners.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_describes_how_ter.html

I believe that this 2nd time, when she walked out is the time that she was interoggated for 6 hours on one question, broke down & left (before the poly was administered).

...putting comments from Mr. Moulton, Finster, Cook and Kaine together.

And if that's what happened, I would have walked out too, and it would have taken alot to get me back there. This is the point at which she should have used that statement mentioned above!

But that would have made her look more guilty, hmmmmmmmm....

Anyway, we have only Terri's word as told to us by Kaine, based on what LE told her about her results.

She could have failed, she could have come up elusive on ONE question, the one that she was grilled on for 6 hours, or she could have passed it.

LE knows that good liars can pass and truthtellers can fail. They could have told her anything to further their investigation.

Furthermore, she could have been called back to answer additional questions that were not originally asked.

So to answer the question: NO!

But I also think it's important to consider that we don't know anything about the results...so weighing whether a failed results may indicate something could be a moot point.
 
Failing the tests still means something, which is why it's used as an investigative tool. The logic for me is something like in those math exams, where they pose situations like:
Persons A and B say they saw a red truck. Person C says it was a green truck. One person has failed the polygraph. Was the truck red or green?

They call it an investigative tool. They're not automatically trusting everything else anyway, and they can still use some of the answers to help understand what's going on. They're just trying to find truth, and it appears from these reports that truth might not always be the same thing as cooperation. Which I find interesting in itself.

:waitasec:
 
The New England Journal of Medicine states that lie detector or polygraph tests record the changes in the autonomic nervous system, such as blood pressure, pulse, breathing patterns and perspiration, that occur when the test subject is lying. ~~snip~~

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5766423_drugs-affect-lie-detector-test.html

Function: The autonomic nervous system controls blood pressure, heart and breathing rates, body temperature, digestion, metabolism (thus affecting body weight), the balance of water and electrolytes (such as sodium and calcium), the production of body fluids (saliva, sweat, and tears), urination, defecation, sexual response, and other processes.

A few tidbits/examples one might consider when asked to volunteer for a lie detector test:

Class of drugs that affect the autonomic nervous system (ANS):
...Hypertensive medications - can reduce blood pressure, breathing, perspiration, and pulse.
...Drugs affecting cardiac function and stress levels, such as beta blockers (banned in the Olympics).
...Benzodiazapines
...drugs that impair memory, reasoning, judgment

A couple common drugs that increase heart rate, breathing, perspiration:
...caffeine, nicotine, OTC products, stimulants for weight loss.
...Stimulants of any kind
...Treatments for ADHD, narcolepsy

Unpredictable effects on the ANS:
...Street drugs - contaminants found in street drugs are unpredictable. ...Prescription/OTC abuse plays havoc with the ANS.
...withdrawal of any kind.
...Antidepressants
...anabolic steroids/steroids
...ethanol

Underlying disease states affecting ANS, a couple examples:
...Diabetes - hypo and hyperglycemia
...Hypo and hyperthyroidism
...Hypo and hypertension
...Hormone fluctuations (menopause, testicular problems)
...Anxiety and nervous disorders
...Disorders affecting judgment, reasoning, memory
**please know the above lists of disease states/medications are far from complete. Variables in medication/disease states are far reaching.

Variables relating to subject and examiner:
...Subject comfort level in socializing
...Subject repore with examiner
...Subject stress in taking polygraph (real or perceived)
...Training and experience of polygraph examiner
...Polygrapher knowledge of test design and test interpretation
...Polygrapher knowledge of interpreting psychological nuances
...Polygrapher interviewing skills

I found the educational requirements varied between programs and states. Most programs did require a couple courses in psychology, a course or two in physiology, maybe a course in disease states, but not a single program, that I could find, required a course in pharmacology.

Education, Training and Work Experience:
Many states require licensure or certification for polygraph examiners, which may include formal training and/or a supervised training period. Some employers may ask that you have experience in interviewing or interrogation, or prior experience administering and analyzing polygraph tests. ~~snip~~
http://www.edudecisions.com/articles/criminal-justice-careers/jobs/polygraph-examiner.php

With the above in mind, I ask: Why would anyone allow a polygrapher and a machine to play a role in determining guilt/innocence, present/future reputation? :eek:

**A video showing polygraphers who believe and don't believe - display of countermeasures. Medications aren't considered in this video.

**[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLL3wtgBiFA[/ame]

More info on the autonomic nervous system
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec06/ch098666/ch098666a.html
 
I have every reason to believe I would never pass a lie detector test if hooked up to one; not because I am dishonest, but because my nerves get jacked into the stratosphere in stressful situations. On the outside I might look calm, but on the inside, I'm a mess. Even my baseline questions would show deception because I'd probably forget my full name.

I'm hoping never to have to experience this :)
 
I worked for a company that requested you take polygraphs 3 times a year. (it was later banned). Since I worked for them for 13 years I can only imagine the tests were accurate but what I found disturbing is the man issuing the test said it was only as good as the polygrapher. That always freaked me out. They put you in the equipment to test your breathing patterns, etc. It's an odd process to say the least. After a few years the man issuing the test became rather open about a lot of facts concerning the process.

We had a girl at our branch who was a compulsive liar and she always passed with flying colors. She was finally fired when caught red handed stealing. So there you have it.

Did Terri fail? According to those around her, yes. What it means depends on the questions. As usual we are not privy to the answer. It is an investigative tool, hmmm. It becomes more than that when the masses hear the results. Since it is not accurate enough to be used in a court of law, what is the point? Giving LE a direction to go in? Another hmm...

BBM

Thank you, that is what I was going to post in regards to LDT and whether they play a role in my theory of guilt or innocence. The person administering the test and therefore evaluating the responses is key.

I think along with all the other other circumstantial things stacking up against Terri, it does carry some weight with me, but by no means does it carry enough weight to convince me of her guilt without all the other stuff stacked atop it.
 
failure of LDT:
means something to me... what it means to me depends on what questions she asked and what was failed.

moo
 
I can't give them any credit because I failed one once. It was for a company that I was applying to work.

I had only worked a few years and never, let me stress, never handled money.
The question I failed was DID YOU EVER STEAL MONEY FROM YOUR EMPLOYER.
I replied No, but after a hesitation, actually the question surprised me. I was applying for a clerical position.

The testor said I failed because I hesitated.

So i can't have any confidence in the test.
 
I'm not sure of the percentage of accuracy of these tests, but I know they are not allowed to be used as evidence. I just wonder if there were parts of the tests Terri actually passed & if the questions she failed indicate guilt about other things. For instance if she passed the question ''are you responsible for Kyron's disappearance?'', but failed the question ''have you been totally honest about your whereabouts that morning?'', makes a big difference to her guilt or not. And even though they can't be used against her it's very useful to any future prosecution of Terri, as anyone who has a TV now knows she failed 2 tests, including a future jury. I;m not so knowledgable about these tests though, so would be interesting to get other thoughts on this, particularly if other people have failed these tests, but later been proven to be innocent. Also this may sound dumb, but how many wrong questions constitutes a fail?

Frankly one of my problems with this case is if one of our foster kids went missing I'm pretty sure I'd fail on the "are you responsible" question too. Knowing what they mean I'd give the correct answer, but my heart would know it happened on my watch.

Frankly, one of the best scientific sources I've ever seen on the history and usage of the polygraph is this man: http://www.kenalder.com
 
Polygragh-- detects deception..

Deception-- lies

:angel::angel:

Incorrect.

Polygraph-- detects physiological changes

Could be deception, could be nervousness, could be indignation, could be a full bladder. It does NOT detect lies.

If you believe someone to be guilty then failing proves their obvious guilt and passing proves their obvious psychopathic nature. That is why it isnt used as evidence in court. It is a third person opinion, not a fact.
 
Also, please don't forget that LE can lie about the results...say that someone has failed, showed deception, and whatever they would like to say, simply to apply pressure on someone.

I have had several experiences with polygraphs, and that has demonstrated to me the reason they are not used in a courtroom.
I do not think that they are any kind of evidence, especially in this particular case.

Best-
Herding Cats

BBM
Could you elaborate a little on your experience in a general way? All I know about polygraphs is what I've read in Wikipedia - and, of course, what I've seen on TV. However, if talking about your experience would reveal to much personal information, than, of course, I understand.
 
Now you would think this was a simple question, right? When I happened across it while cruising the net a few days, I couldn't imagine why the question was even posed. YES! I thought to myself. Of course she did! Don't you read the news?

Following the link where the question had come up in Google led me to a page where the question didn't appear, so I forgot about it for a few days. Then something posted somewhere herein got me to realize that I couldn't remember which poly Terri had walked out of and not actually taken, so off I went Googling to find that, and as I read interview after interview, I found that Kaine never says that Terri failed the third poly. Yeah. I hate when that happens.

So I posted the question in the Q&A thread, thinking surely someone would have a link to an interview I just wasn't thinking of, but that hasn't happened, and it's driving me crazy, so I'm creating this thread.

Well okay, so that's not all there it is to it. :)

The rest of it is that there's an article that says a source says that Terri was "evasive" on a poly, and that's got me wondering if maybe rather than fail that third poly, the results were actually Inconclusive versus Passed or Failed. Not that Inconclusive means "evasive" at all - it means, actually, no opinion. That is, the examiner is able to determine neither truth nor deception on one or more poly answers, and therefore chooses to render no opinion either way. It's a big fat I Don't Know.

And the other part of the rest of it is that Desiree does, in one (and only one) interview say that Terri failed two polys, but the thing is, I don't know where she would have gotten that from. See, I did find one interview with Kaine where he says Terri came home from the third poly and vented to all who were there. (Not vented that she failed, mind you, because he never says she failed the third poly, but just that on that third one, she vented.)

So off I went looking some more (I really wish I wouldn't do it) to see if there was anything that might indicate that Desiree was there when Terri got home from the third poly, and might have heard Terri say that LE told her she failed, but... well, that didn't work out so well. In fact, it just added to my bafflement.

Because what I found was that on the day that Terri took poly #3, there was a People reporter at the house. And not only does the People reporter indicate that Desiree wasn't there, but the People reporter indicates that Terri didn't vent. You know, in front of Kaine. Or anybody.

So. Here I am starting this thread in hopes that my good fellow sleuthers will, as always, put their best efforts towards helping me figure out whether or not Terri failed that third poly.

I've got some source reference links, as well as some lovely Margaritas and platters of tasty snacks coming up in just a sec.

Thanks,
BeanE
 
Kaine: She took the first, went to take a second and walked out before the machine portion of the test could be administered, then went back 8-10 days later and completed a full test. This was information she shared openly with all friends, family, and law enforcement that were at the house at the time of the events.

http://www.katu.com/news/98654424.html



Q: Can you describe how Terri Horman handled the polygraph requests? I believe you have said to others that Terri walked out of a second polygraph, and then waited about 10 days before taking a third? Can you clarify this for us?

A: She fully cooperated and took the first polygraph then subsequently vented her failed results to all family, friends, and law enforcement at the house. A few days later she cooperated and went to take a second polygraph test but got up and walked out before the machine portion of the test could be administered... again by her own statement to family, friends, and law enforcement at the house ...She continually pushed back and refused to repeat the second test for several days (approx. 8-10) before going to take the test and then once again coming back to the house and venting to all listeners.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_describes_how_ter.html[/quote]



The father also added a bit of detail to reports that Terri Horman had taken a polygraph test twice. After Kyron disappeared, she took a first test, Kaine Horman told The Oregonian newspaper, and she "vented her failed results to all family and friends, and law enforcement at the house."

She took a second, cut it short, refused to repeat it for several days, and then, after taking the test again, she again came home, "venting to all listeners," Kaine Horman said.

http://www.kval.com/news/local/98673499.html



“I think everyone knows she took two polygraphs,” Kaine said. “She has not passed those polygraphs.”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/98077834.html



In previous interviews, Kaine Horman said Terri failed her initial polygraph, walked out of a second and waited more than a week before agreeing to a third.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/day_of_kyron_hormans_disappear.html
 
I've often wondered if Terri truly failed the first LDT. I wouldn't think that LE would reveal a pass or fail while they are conducting an investigation - but that maybe she was led to believe that she failed, or for some other reason she believed she failed. I have to think it's quite possible the 1st LDT was inconclusive.

But that's JMHO
 
This "evasive" stuff has me wondering if the third poly came back Inconclusive, rather than Failed, since Kaine never says she failed it.



* after her performance during several hours of polygraphs which, the source said, indicated that she was being "evasive"; and

http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Hormanprobelatest-97771724.html



This is 3 separate snippets:

1) KEVIN MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Jean, she`s taken two. And this in from the CNN affiliates, that her performance after several hours of polygraphs, the sources have told CNN affiliates that she`s being evasive.

2) UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A reliable source tells News Channel Eight Terri Horman has refused to answer investigator`s questions. And she`s been evasive on a polygraph.

3) KEVIN MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Also, several hours of polygraph, sources have told CNN that they indicate that she was being evasive

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1007/05/ng.01.html
 
Note how this People reporter describes when Terri comes home. She doesn't mention any venting, doesn't mention a poly, rather she says Terri barely spoke to Kaine, and went off to another part of the house. Is this when Terri came home from the third poly?

Even then, the tension between Kaine and Terri was clear. On the day of the interview in their home-where a 3-in. stack of Kyron flyers sits on a kitchen table and boxes of green rubber bracelets etched with the tip-line number rest on the floor-Terri drove off with Kiara as Kaine sat down to talk. When she returned 90 minutes later, she and Kaine barely spoke before she went off to another part of the house while Kaine gave a tour of Kyron's bedroom.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20399962,00.html



Looks like only Desiree says Terri failed the third poly. Was Desiree at the house when Terri came home? The People reporter doesn't mention her (see above).

"Law enforcement didn't need to tell us," says Kyron's mother, Desiree Young. "She was very vocal about failing those polygraphs."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html



Nope, looks like Desiree wasn't even there:

Kyron's mother, Desiree Young, who lives four hours away and spoke to PEOPLE by telephone.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20399962,00.html
 
You can take off your tin foil hat now, BeanE.
 
One thing that I've learned from following high-profile cases is not submitting to a polygraph without the advice of an attorney. People who are innocent rush to take a polygraph to clear themselves, but what happens if an innocent individual doesn't "pass with flying colors" because they're nervous under the extreme circumstances, have taken medications that might affect the outcome, are prone to anxiety attacks, etc.? Too risky, and I don't think I'd put myself in that position even when I knew that I had absolutely nothing to hide. jmo
 
Looks like only Desiree says Terri failed the third poly. Was Desiree at the house when Terri came home? The People reporter doesn't mention her (see above).

"Law enforcement didn't need to tell us," says Kyron's mother, Desiree Young. "She was very vocal about failing those polygraphs."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html

This statement by KH is what leads me to believe she failed (or at least was told she failed) the third one. The bold is by me.


Q: Can you describe how Terri Horman handled the polygraph requests? I believe you have said to others that Terri walked out of a second polygraph, and then waited about 10 days before taking a third? Can you clarify this for us?

A: She fully cooperated and took the first polygraph then subsequently vented her failed results to all family, friends, and law enforcement at the house. A few days later she cooperated and went to take a second polygraph test but got up and walked out before the machine portion of the test could be administered... again by her own statement to family, friends, and law enforcement at the house ...She continually pushed back and refused to repeat the second test for several days (approx. 8-10) before going to take the test and then once again coming back to the house and venting to all listeners.


I read that statement, like this "and then once again coming back to the house and venting to all listeners [just like she did when she failed the first one]"

The bold and brackets is me completing the thought. That's the way normal people talk. "Once again" is saying it was just like the first time. Notice that he doesn't mention her venting after the 2nd aborted poly -- because leaving is not the same as failing. jmoo.
 
One thing that I've learned from following high-profile cases is not submitting to a polygraph without the advice of an attorney. People who are innocent rush to take a polygraph to clear themselves, but what happens if an innocent individual doesn't "pass with flying colors" because they're nervous under the extreme circumstances, have taken medications that might affect the outcome, are prone to anxiety attacks, etc.? Too risky, and I don't think I'd put myself in that position even when I knew that I had absolutely nothing to hide. jmo

Please, don't even talk to LE without a lawyer. Keep practicing, I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer.
 

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