Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 3

June 15th....to the 16th....the alleged nite of the fight between KC and her mom...then GA saying that he saw Kc and Caylee on the morning of the 16th going out....where? I think this is untrue. Is this the day Caylee was killed?

Agree, the 16th is the day. I think it's highly likely that Cindy put her foot down after the fight, so when Casey made her little calls the next day trying to get her or anyone else to mind Caylee the calls were ignored. Casey (still angered from what had been said and done during the fight) decided her motherhood had curbed her social life for the last time, and also decided to make the final move in her game of one-upmanship with Cindy, and the civilized world, and the rest is history.

Enter guilt and denial for Cindy.

Ty button note enough. The sixteenth is where the perfect storm to prompt the killing of little Caylee. I do not think ICA set out to kill Caylee. Unfortunately, I don't think Caylee registered on ICA's radar enough to waste the time murdering. Besides, IMO To her line of thinking, Caylee was going to come in very handy as a pawn to get what she would need down the road.

I think she expected to knock little Caylee out for her own convenience, leave her in the trunk with duct tape on her mouth (this one thing leads me to believe she had done this in the past only Calyee had come round and raised a ruccus or scared ICA enough to worry about a future possible ruccus of that sort) and come out from clubbin in her little social swirl later and go crash out somewhere, pulling little Caylee out of the trunk.

All MOO just my own feel for what brought this on. MOO ICA felt very entitled to behave in this cavelier manner towards Caylee as the brat was the reason her mom was all over her *advertiser censored**. And she didn't even see Caylee as valid enough to consider for a moment the possible consequences or intrinsic wrongness of what she was doing.

I think ICA has always had dificulty accepting "no" as an answer. I also think ICA has long been very good at manipulating her way into being able to do nothing but whatever suits ICA at the moment.

I think the 16th is crucial in that it contributed to ICA needing to go out and validate herself with socializing but needed to be unhampered by the kid. It was a nice little secret dig at CA to put Caylee in that trunk. That is moo. I don't think she cared enough about that child to kill her.

I find ICA to be very imature and whim driven

tlcox said:

Ty button note enough. The sixteenth is where the perfect storm to prompt the killing of little Caylee. I do not think ICA set out to kill Caylee. Unfortunately, I don't think Caylee registered on ICA's radar enough to waste the time murdering. Besides, IMO To her line of thinking, Caylee was going to come in very handy as a pawn to get what she would need down the road.

I think she expected to knock little Caylee out for her own convenience, leave her in the trunk with duct tape on her mouth (this one thing leads me to believe she had done this in the past only Calyee had come round and raised a ruccus or scared ICA enough to worry about a future possible ruccus of that sort) and come out from clubbin in her little social swirl later and go crash out somewhere, pulling little Caylee out of the trunk.

All MOO just my own feel for what brought this on. MOO ICA felt very entitled to behave in this cavelier manner towards Caylee as the brat was the reason her mom was all over her *advertiser censored**. And she didn't even see Caylee as valid enough to consider for a moment the possible consequences or intrinsic wrongness of what she was doing.

I think ICA has always had dificulty accepting "no" as an answer. I also think ICA has long been very good at manipulating her way into being able to do nothing but whatever suits ICA at the moment.

I think the 16th is crucial in that it contributed to ICA needing to go out and validate herself with socializing but needed to be unhampered by the kid. It was a nice little secret dig at CA to put Caylee in that trunk. That is moo. I don't think she cared enough about that child to kill her.

I find ICA to be very imature and whim driven

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I used to think it might have happened as you describe......but the placement of three pieces of duct tape and the timeline changed my mind. And then there is the less discussed 4th piece of tape. I wonder if the State will proffer a theory on its use.

I don't know what time she hooked up with T Lazarro that night only that they were together at Blockbusters at 19.58pm and she didn't leave his apartment until the afternoon of the 17th. Tony told us why. If we go with your theory, then, legally that might (if it could be proved) be considered aggrevated manslaughter.......though in my book, should be first degree murder and torture of a helpless trapped child.

Ofcourse we have no way of knowing for sure how Caylee died or where but as Jeff Ashton said the "jurors are free to draw inferences from the facts they hear." And this is why imo Casey's refusal to fess up and take the all or nothing defense route, will likely see her spend the rest of her life in prison.

I can almost believe she taped Caylee's arms and put duct tape over her mouth to keep her quiet and restrained while on the phone trying to find a babysitter (for all we know she may have done this often) then as her frustration grew with her situation she completely lost the plot with Caylee (who may have been kicking against her restraints and adding to Casey's frustration) so she placed the final two pieces of duct tape across her face until she died.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68910"]Casey Anthony's Cell Phone Records - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


No doubt in my mind the fight the night before pushed Casey into a corner in her mind, she was about to have her wings clipped massively. The thieving had been exposed to members outside the family which would have infuriated Cindy, Caylee would have been a witness to the fight, was also a witness to Casey's daily activities, and there is no doubt in my mind that Cindy had informed Casey that things were about to change around here.

They most certainly were, but Casey could create her own form of hell for Cindy too and remove a major obstacle to her own happiness at the same time.

Mrs G Norris said:

I can almost believe she taped Caylee's arms and put duct tape over her mouth to keep her quiet and restrained while on the phone trying to find a babysitter (for all we know she may have done this often) then as her frustration grew with her situation she completely lost the plot at the child (who may have been kicking against her restraints and adding to Casey's frustration) so she placed the final two pieces of duct tape across her face until she died.

Casey Anthony's Cell Phone Records - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

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That is a plausible scenario. I just havent seen enough evidence that convinces me this was a murder long in the planning. I think it was an act of rage and revenge. What sets this young woman out from the rest is how she handled it.

She imo very quickly put Caylee in the trunk then hey ho its off to Tony's.
All's well with the world. Think I'll get myself a tatto next week.

I 100% believe that there was a fight on June 15th, 2008. Cindy had every right to be livid with Casey for stealing money out of the account that pays for her elderly grandfathers (and Cindy's fathers) care. But, IMO, Cindy was mad for all the wrong reasons.

IMO, Cindy wasn't livid about Casey actually stealing money... heck, Casey had been stealing money for years. One thing that I have learned from Cindy through all these years is that she HATES to be confronted with the imperfections of her family. It was one thing for Cindy to be the VICTIM of Casey's stealing and be able to garner sympathy from her mother (and others) for her unfortunate situation, but in Cindy's twisted thinking, it is an entirely different thing for her to be CONFRONTED with Casey stealing.

Cindy has never had a problem telling people that Casey is a liar, a thief, a sociopath, etc... but notice if anyone tells HER that Casey is a liar, a thief, or a sociopath, the woman goes bat-#$^%-CRAZY!

I really hope that this all makes sense? For some reason, it is not coming out the way I want it to?

krisskross said:

That is a plausible scenario. I just havent seen enough evidence that convinces me this was a murder long in the planning. I think it was an act of rage and revenge. What sets this young woman out from the rest is how she handled it.

She imo very quickly put Caylee in the trunk then hey ho its off to Tony's.
All's well with the world. Think I'll get myself a tatto next week.

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I agree, I am not seeing much planning in this at all. If she had planned it, she would have had a plan for disposal, which obviously she did not.

krisskross said:

I used to think it might have happened as you describe......but the placement of three pieces of duct tape and the timeline changed my mind. And then there is the less discussed 4th piece of tape. I wonder if the State will proffer a theory on its use.

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*snipped*

Shameless excuse to link my favorite thread! Some very good theories on that 4th piece of tape (Q104). At some point... several months ago it was rumored that the SA was on the same track.

Starting about page 23-24 maybe?

'Beach said:

*snipped*

Shameless excuse to link my favorite thread! Some very good theories on that 4th piece of tape (Q104). At some point... several months ago it was rumored that the SA was on the same track.

Starting about page 23-24 maybe?

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Thank's for that link Beach

Will definitely go have a read.

^ Yep best thread ever, and had to laugh at some furious back-peddling I had to perform over there after being out-sleuthed! The Duct Tape thread is the kind of thread that makes WS great.

Im pretty sure there was a fight...if we go by Jean Couty, he witnesses at least two, one in April and one in June. The problem is he didn't pin it down to the night of the 15th. Allegedly that story came from Jesse Grund. But Ive never seen it in a transcript. Then there is the supposed reason for the fight. Shirley Plesea claims the theft from her husband's account happened in either April or May and would seem Cindy knew back then.

Im not saying there wasnt a fight on the 15th..... I just havent seen anything in the discovery that gives credit to this date as opposed to the 14th or the 7th or even that pesky 9th. And it seems she didnt mention anything to T Lazzaro during their lengthy phone conversations into the wee small hours. Doesn't sound like drama queen Casey ....at least to me.
:truce:

Mark Furhman talked with C&G and he reported on GVS that there had been a fight on the 15th. He said if I remember correctly that he told them you do realize that Caylee will not be coming home. This was of course two years ago when my brain cells were clearer aka not pickled. I just know he did talk to them about the fight and Caylee.

Pattymarie said:

• Fight - Part 1 thread
• Fight - Part 2 thread

June 15th....to the 16th....the alleged nite of the fight between KC and her mom...then GA saying that he saw Kc and Caylee on the morning of the 16th going out....where? I think this is untrue. Is this the day Caylee was killed?

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I've always felt that the fight between Cindy and Casey on July 15th was the catalyst for Caylee's murder. I think Casey killed Caylee that night or the early morning hours of June 16th.

I've doubted George's story of seeing Casey and Caylee leaving the house on June 16th. George stated that they left about 12:50pm as he was watching his favorite cooking program on television. He related in detail the clothing both were wearing. I highly doubt that anyone would remember in detail what anyone else was wearing on a day that at that time was not remarkable. George described it as "just like any other day." A month would go by before he or anyone else would try to remember the last time they saw Caylee.

I think there were two goals in George relating this story about seeing Casey and Caylee leave on June 16th. One goal was to make people think the fight the night before was not that big of a deal and that by the next morning all was okay. The second goal was to infer that whatever happened to Caylee, didn't happen in the Anthony home - it happened somewhere else.

sassy_texasbelle2 said:

Mark Furhman talked with C&G and he reported on GVS that there had been a fight on the 15th. He said if I remember correctly that he told them you do realize that Caylee will not be coming home. This was of course two years ago when my brain cells were clearer aka not pickled. I just know he did talk to them about the fight and Caylee.

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Thank you Sassy

Yes, I was aware of Fuhrman and IIRC he first came out with the stories about neighbours hearing a fight on the 15th. But he also IIRC said that the Anthonys denied it.

I would imagine LE did canvass the street and talk to neigbours.
My point is ......as far as discovery goes, only Jean Couty's statement has been handed over to the defense in relation to any type of fight.

So, I have to think the State are not going to be able to present evidence or testimony about a fight on the 15th to the jury.

LolaMoon08 said:

I 100% believe that there was a fight on June 15th, 2008. Cindy had every right to be livid with Casey for stealing money out of the account that pays for her elderly grandfathers (and Cindy's fathers) care. But, IMO, Cindy was mad for all the wrong reasons.

IMO, Cindy wasn't livid about Casey actually stealing money... heck, Casey had been stealing money for years. One thing that I have learned from Cindy through all these years is that she HATES to be confronted with the imperfections of her family. It was one thing for Cindy to be the VICTIM of Casey's stealing and be able to garner sympathy from her mother (and others) for her unfortunate situation, but in Cindy's twisted thinking, it is an entirely different thing for her to be CONFRONTED with Casey stealing.

Cindy has never had a problem telling people that Casey is a liar, a thief, a sociopath, etc... but notice if anyone tells HER that Casey is a liar, a thief, or a sociopath, the woman goes bat-#$^%-CRAZY!

I really hope that this all makes sense? For some reason, it is not coming out the way I want it to?

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_______________________________


BBM and respectfully quoted:
This is SO true, MO. My inlaws are the same exact way. My bro-in-law will steal and rampage through the house like a lunatic due to his drug issues and his mom will call you up (mind you, this is only when she is extremely peeved and during all the chaos) and call him every name in the book. Telling of his stealing and pledging to put him out "for good."
Of course, this never happens and if you ever bring the conversation or him stealing up again, she will look at you like you have three heads. She genuinely pretends not to remember the conversation. And this is one on one with no one else present. She will either quickly change the subject or outright deny ever saying it. She always wants to vent when she is upset but then she quickly regrets it and the second things start to normalize again, she goes right back into that pretend world with her perfect family. After that, she distances herself from the person she vented to for a long while and acts very aloof. She does this over and over again until I just completely stopped dealing with it. It she calls me to vent, I cut her short because it really is not worth all the hassle. lol. Things with them will never change.

There most definitely WAS a big fight. They just "don't remember".

Also, as they were growing up, she was very controlling, as I believe CA was.
MOO

Also (sorry) the drug use in the family is so obvious to the point where no one is blind to it (even strangers) but it will always be denied and will absolutely never be spoken out loud.
(He's been on drugs for nearly 10 years now and just a short while ago she says, "I'm starting to think maybe he's on some kind of drug". )
NO KIDDING!

Leila said:

I've always felt that the fight between Cindy and Casey on July 15th was the catalyst for Caylee's murder. I think Casey killed Caylee that night or the early morning hours of June 16th.

I've doubted George's story of seeing Casey and Caylee leaving the house on June 16th. George stated that they left about 12:50pm as he was watching his favorite cooking program on television. He related in detail the clothing both were wearing. I highly doubt that anyone would remember in detail what anyone else was wearing on a day that at that time was not remarkable. George described it as "just like any other day." A month would go by before he or anyone else would try to remember the last time they saw Caylee.

I think there were two goals in George relating this story about seeing Casey and Caylee leave on June 16th. One goal was to make people think the fight the night before was not that big of a deal and that by the next morning all was okay. The second goal was to infer that whatever happened to Caylee, didn't happen in the Anthony home - it happened somewhere else.

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BBM
Something I noticed (finally) in this interview
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHc3vyiIms&NR=1[/ame]
1:08 mark
Orlando Salinas asks George who has just spent close to an hour with ICA and has just left her, what color her shackles were, were they pink?
George hems and haws, and then says, "I can't remember."

Orlando, you genius!

^^ OMG that is a 'Barry Crocker' as we would say in Australia! Haha...

tlcox,

I read your post above, and couldn't agree more. Well said. I too think, Casey didn't love Caylee enough to kill her. She was selfish, reckless and heartless. Justice for Caylee, who will never be forgotten.:frown: :cry:

I remember very early on George saying in a television interview, that Caylee and his daughter were moving out. This was on the last day he saw them. He was the only one being interviewed. Cindy wasn't present. It wasn't a local news station but a national news source. Obviously, his story has changed since then. I wish I had the clip. I will try and located it for you all to see.