If JonBenet's death was an accident...

DeeDee249 · Feb 25, 2011

qtc said:
DeeDee, you said that JBs prints were not on the bowl. If she gotten the snack herself, wouldnt her prints be on the bowl?

What else is known about the pineapple? Was it already in the bowl in the fridge, or was it opened the same time it was going to be eaten?

I am just trying to think about when it was possibly consumed. If JB and/or Burke got up for whatever reason, and she wanted the pineapple, would she (or they) sit in the dark and eat it? No one (the neighbors), to my knowledge, said anything about lights being on late, but I believe something was said about weird lighting (like a flashlight) was seen.

My thoughts are going every which way and I am having a hard time writing them down in a coherent way.

JB's prints were NOT on the bowl. ONLY Patsy and BR's prints were on the bowl, and BR's prints were on the glass.
There was additional pineapple in the fridge that matched that in the bowl, as well as both matched the pineapple (even the rind) of the pineapple in JB's digestive tract. This was FRESH pineapple, not canned. So it wasn't "opened".
A neighbor saw what they described as "strange moving lights" (presumed to be the someone walking or moving about with a flashlight) around midnight, the general time JB was thought to have died. The family was back home by 10 pm, and it is assumed the pineapple was not eaten in the dark, but rather in the dining area off the kitchen, where the bowl and spoon were found, sometime between 10 pm and her death, about 2 hours later. There would be nothing particularly noteworthy about seeing lights on OR off in the R house, and nothing was noted with the exception of the moving lights. I am sure JB ate the pineapple, given to her by her mother or possibly brother, as their prints alone are on the bowl.
As far as the lights, it really wasn't that late. 10 pm- midnight may be late to some, but in many households people would still be up and about at that hour, especially a holiday like Christmas with so much tidying up to do.

SunnieRN · Feb 26, 2011

MurriFlower said:
Look, Llama, I don't think you're such a bad Camelid, you are an Aussie after all, but you've just backed the wrong horse here!

MurriFlower said:
Now there was me saying what a nice little Camelid you were, and then you go off down the sarcasm route. How do we know it wasn't a group of College boys with a mini laboratory in their dorm? Perhaps they couldn't even swim. The neighbour was a qualified Pharmacist, perhaps he had a sideline in 'designer' drugs. I mean really, why would you pick on the swim team when we all know about the cyclists?

Well, it means my little Camel, that they did not FIND any drugs, not that there were none given to her. Perhaps you'd like to educate yourself about GHB and how it is a naturally occurring substance and how quickly it leaves the body and how difficult it is to trace and how you need to be looking for it specifically and using special laboratory equipment?

Well Wonderllama, you are obviously pushing buttons MF doesn't want pushed! Thank you and keep on it!!! I would be offended to be called a camel, and then be accused of sarcasm, Ah, yea, um hmm.

As for GBH, a urine test is all it takes to find presence of the drug. I think the fact that he tested her for drugs at all, was to prove they were not there. Also, GBH is mixed into drinks, to disguise the flavor. Highly unlikely that JonBenet would have eaten GBH spiked pineapple, as it would have likely been detected by her taste buds.

How do you explain away Burkes finger prints on the bowl and glass? Or Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl, but no one outside the immediate family? Oh that's right, you've told me before on other matters that you don't have to. Also, do you really think JonBenet would have silently gone out of her room, down to the kitchen, eaten pineapple with a stranger (swim team, any college team), wearing gloves? Cause otherwise their fingerprints would have been on the bowl when they got pineapple for JonBenet.

Guess what MF, WL may be backing the wrong horse, in your opinion, but you are beating a dead horse, with no results, in my opinion. Hoo Yah, cowboy up and hi yah, as it's said in TX.

wonderllama · Feb 26, 2011

I have no problem with Murri's theories or opinions, I'm just after a full explanation of things and how everyone reaches their conclusions.

As much as I don't agree with most of what Murri says, I suspect she isn't just whipping it up out of nowhere, so it's good to hear all possibilities.

Having said that, I'm still unsure how the facts presented lead to the conclusions that JB must have been drugged when no evidence has ever been found to suggest that is the case. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen, I'm saying we're taking a leap to say;

- Pineapple was found
- Pineapple was found in JB's stomach
- JB must have been subdued by drugs put in the pineapple

I suspect she was actually subdued by a blow to the head.

A + B = C (yes, we've gone from probabilities to algebra)

No point introducing a D if there's no evidence it exists.

cynic · Feb 26, 2011

MurriFlower said:
Yes, my precise point. Most clothing for children marked 12 will be for a 12 year old. HOWEVER, Bloomingdales own size chart says that size 12 is suitable for a 9-10 year old. There is NO SIZE 12/14.
That chart has no relevance whatsoever with respect to the Bloomies panties that were being sold in 1996
It has no relevance precisely because the “Days of the Week” panties that JBR was wearing on the night of her death were group sized. She was wearing size 12/14 according to the BPD.
It is not important how many size charts from other companies that you choose to post as evidence that some companies (perhaps even the company that manufactured these particular panties) do sell this size. I can post an equal number (and have already done so, so I won't waste time doing it again) with the exact same sizing of Bloomingdales. What is important is the size that was on the panties that JBR was wearing. Bloomingdales would have obtained from the manufacturer the size that theyretail as per their size chart. Just the same as any Asian company that produces clothing for the UK or Australia or Europe would size their garments and tag them according to their customers specifications.

I agree with the sentence that I bolded. There is no question, whatsoever, that she was wearing size 12/14 panties. Jayelles, who went to a NYC Bloomingdales, found that “Days of the Week” panties available in three size groupings; Small 4/6, Medium 8/10 and Large 12/14. They were rolled up and in a sealed plastic package which would require scissors or a knife to open initially.
A sworn affidavit confirms that JBR was wearing size 12/14
Patsy speaks of small, medium and large panties during the course of her interview, as well as them being rolled and in a plastic package.

MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I never purchased a pair of girl's panties. Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you do, I mean, when you do that, what do you think about as far as the person you're purchasing them for?
A. Well, you just look, small, medium, large, you know, and you pick the one you think would most likely fit.
…
Q. They came in, if you recall, do you remember that they come in kind of a plastic see-through plastic container.
A. Right.
Q. They are rolled up?
A. Yes.

The picture shown on a home made dummy (and not a very well made one either), is meaningless.

I’m still waiting for a similar effort by an IDI to refute Jayelles.

If Jayelles for example purchased a pack of panties size 6 (as per the Bloomingdales size chart) and another pair of size 12/14 (even from the same manufacturer, but using the Amazon chart you posted), then the size difference would be enormous.

I've always been amused by this picture posted by Jayelles and taken at the same time the st.eve 12/14 tag was shown.
Notice how it is only the larger panties that has the tag exposed rather than both pairs? I've always thought this is suspicious, because the smaller may not be the correct size, as JBR could have worn size 6, 6X, 7 & 8, which all fall within her age grouping, but may not support the poster's theory.

You seem to be implying that Jayelles was either deceptive or lying. Unfortunately she is not around these days to defend herself, however, she did encounter similar sentiment from a few other IDI’s.
Perhaps this quote from Jayelles is in order:
“I'm kind of past caring about the naysayers. I've encountered so many desperate counter-arguments from desperate people who simply cannot believe that Patsy would have allowed Jonbenet to wear out-sized knickers which would have been hanging down to her knees - so they come up with far-fetched explanations to try and discredit my photos. I suggest they make the trip to NYC and buy some for themselves. I have often wondered why none of the RST have done this but came to the conclusion that most likely they have and that they just couldn't bear to post that I am correct.”
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=170281&postcount=191"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Girls Size 12-14 "Bloomies" Modeled On a Six-Year-Old Like JonBenet[/ame]

BTW are you also calling me a liar?
I wanted to see for myself the size difference between a size 6 and a size 12. My wife went to WalMart and purchased size 6, 12 and 14 Hanes panties.
I posted pictures and measurements on the following thread, as you know.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124291"]The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
Of course, I didn’t expect a precise match to the Jayelles experiment, but the measurements were close and the disparity between size 6 and the two larger sizes was similarly striking.
It’s definitely interesting that no IDI’s have ever posted anything by way of a similar experiment.

I believe she put the panties on herself the previous night before going to the Whites and yes, even if she couldn't read, she could find a printed 'Wednesday' in a pack of seven day-of-the-week panties.

I’m not sure if you believe she wore any of the Bloomies, prior to Dec 25th?

So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them…
Following this logic, we are to believe that JonBenet fell under the spell of these most beautiful and irresistible panties and just had to have them.
However, if we are to believe PR, she was shopping at Bloomingdales with JonBenet and apparently JonBenet picked them out and suggested them as a gift for Jenny.
Well, my question is why didn’t JonBenet simply get a set for herself, in an appropriate size? Or did she?
Unfortunately because PR was being her usual evasive self, and refused to give a straight answer to the following questions, it remains unclear as to how many Days of the Week panties she purchased.
Q. So if I understand you correctly, you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your niece, and one for JonBenet?
A. I am not sure if I bought one or two.
Q. Do you remember what size they were?
A. Not exactly.
Moving on, let’s look at the timeline.
At least one package of Bloomies was purchased in November 1996. Without any good explanation as to why, Patsy claimed that they simply ended up in the bathroom panty drawer for use by JonBenet.
MS. HARMER: I guess I am not clear on, you bought the panties to give to Jenny.
THE WITNESS: Right.
MS. HARMER: And they ended up in JonBenet's bathroom?
A. Right.
The Ramseys turned over a package of “Days of the Week” size 12/14 Bloomies to the Boulder DA (Lacy) in 2002. Allegedly it was complete except for the Wednesday pair.
Alright then, this means that despite the mesmerizing effect that these panties had on JonBenet, she somehow managed to control herself and not wear any of them until at least a month later. Then she gets into the package and even manages to pick the correct day, “Wednesday.”
I just don’t buy it.

Evidence is right there. There were only stained size 6 panties in her drawer.

Not true.
The origin of this IIRC, were statements by Holly Smith to a reporter.
Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated.
Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy."
It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."
…
One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.
She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.
"There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.

Assuming this account is true you will note that HS merely says most panties had been soiled.
You have substituted the word “all” for “most”
Also, with respect to rest of the panties, surely you are not saying that underwear that had been soiled and subsequently washed is somehow unusable??

RDI has said it themselves.

I haven’t, and I don’t believe that that is what the evidence suggests. See above

BPD said they were all in the drawer. NO MENTION has ever been made of them finding panties (except for a dirty pair on the bathroom floor) in any other location in the house.

This has no bearing on the discussion, PR was asked about the whereabouts of the size 12/14 panties and said that they were in JonBenet’s underwear drawer, the same underwear drawer that the BPD searched, the same drawer in which they found only appropriately sized panties for a 6 year old child, and not any of the remaining size 12/14 panties.
You are free to speculate as you wish, but the fact of the matter is that PR was given every opportunity to explain, not only why JBR would have been found in significantly oversized panties, but also where specifically they were to be found in the house.
You can tell us where you think they were but PR tells us that they were to be found in JBR’s panty drawer, not in any luggage, bag or wherever you would choose to place them to support your premise.

JBR could have worn anything from a size 6 to a size 8, according to the Bloomindales size chart.

As we have established, that chart is no more relevant that any chart from any store for the simple reason that they don’t sell children’s panties at Bloomingdales anymore.
If the panties were not obviously huge for someone of JBR’s age, there would have been no questioning relating to the matter by LE.

DeeDee249 · Feb 26, 2011

Let's not forget that the Rs sent along -years later- the alleged remaining pairs of size we panties, still in the package. So right there, we know for sure they had never been opened and put in JB's panty drawer.

Toltec · Feb 26, 2011

Are you saying the panties in the panty drawer are stained??? YUCK!

I know the Ramseys decided JonBenet was too old to ask to be wiped so I gather she did not wipe herself properly. That would explain the stained panties. Someone as rich as the Ramseys would not even take the time to buy this poor child new panties.

My daughter turned 6 this month and I still wipe her bottom because I know what will happen if I don't. She is learning to wipe herself with these wet flushable wipes and hopefully she will be able to wipe herself on her own.

The size 12 panties came from somewhere...knowing now they were not in JonBenets panty drawer...my guess is that they were in the basement wine cellar.

Agatha_C · Feb 26, 2011

wonderllama said:
I have no problem with Murri's theories or opinions, I'm just after a full explanation of things and how everyone reaches their conclusions.

As much as I don't agree with most of what Murri says, I suspect she isn't just whipping it up out of nowhere, so it's good to hear all possibilities.

Having said that, I'm still unsure how the facts presented lead to the conclusions that JB must have been drugged when no evidence has ever been found to suggest that is the case. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen, I'm saying we're taking a leap to say;

- Pineapple was found
- Pineapple was found in JB's stomach
- JB must have been subdued by drugs put in the pineapple

I suspect she was actually subdued by a blow to the head.

A + B = C (yes, we've gone from probabilities to algebra)

No point introducing a D if there's no evidence it exists.

What I find troublesome about the poison pineapple, are two things. No drugs found in system and just how long the Intruder would have had to linger after she ate the fruit, for it to have digested as far as it did. The longer IDI theories have this intruder lingering the more and more it convinces me that it wasnt an intruder. I mean they have him in the house for hours upon hours, lingering and jerking around.

Also, why poison the pineapple if LS was right and a stun gun was used.

Heres a question, if an intruder used the stun gun how did he get JBR to sit quietly after and eat pineapple? And yet again, linger long enough for it to digest. Why not just leave with the stunned and drugged child?

I cannot wrap my head around it and make it make sense.

wonderllama · Feb 27, 2011

It's sort of hedging your bets.

Single intruder options.

- She knew the intruder, but they drugged her anyway?
- She didn't know the intruder, they hid while she ate pineapple which they had drugged, then they jumped out, she screamed and they smacked her in the head? So why drug her?
- She did/didn't know the intruder, they drugged her, they took her downstairs, she came to, they smacked her on the head. Not enough time for pineapple to digest, unless they took her downstairs for 2 hours, then she woke up, screamed and they smacked her.

Seems an awfully long time to be doing all this...for starters, you'd want fast acting drugs, otherwise she'd simply head back up to bed after eating them. And if she ate them when she came in, aren't we risking everyone else being drugged as well? Maybe that would have HELPED!

So she eats it, passes out after a little while, then she's taken downstairs...there still has to be around 2 hours of defiling in order for the pineapple to digest. Can 2 hours be long enough to give the impression of chronic molestation? Perhaps, I don't know, but it is still TWO HOURS. You'd certainly want to be sure nobody else is noticing her missing.

Multiple Intruder Options...

- Yeah I dunno, the idea that there's more than one person sneaking around the house seems odd. I mean, we haven't even positively established ONE intruder was in the house without him inviting a buddy to come with him. The only way I can think there were two intruders is if they were the Laurel & Hardy of murderers....one smart guy and one bumbling partner.

Frigga · Feb 27, 2011

It was the Laurel & Hardy of cover-ups, that's for sure... one smart guy and one bumbling partner. I'll go with JR as the 'smart guy' and PR as the 'bumbling partner'. MOO

Agatha_C · Feb 27, 2011

wonderllama said:
It's sort of hedging your bets.

Single intruder options.

- She knew the intruder, but they drugged her anyway?
- She didn't know the intruder, they hid while she ate pineapple which they had drugged, then they jumped out, she screamed and they smacked her in the head? So why drug her?
- She did/didn't know the intruder, they drugged her, they took her downstairs, she came to, they smacked her on the head. Not enough time for pineapple to digest, unless they took her downstairs for 2 hours, then she woke up, screamed and they smacked her.

Seems an awfully long time to be doing all this...for starters, you'd want fast acting drugs, otherwise she'd simply head back up to bed after eating them. And if she ate them when she came in, aren't we risking everyone else being drugged as well? Maybe that would have HELPED!

So she eats it, passes out after a little while, then she's taken downstairs...there still has to be around 2 hours of defiling in order for the pineapple to digest. Can 2 hours be long enough to give the impression of chronic molestation? Perhaps, I don't know, but it is still TWO HOURS. You'd certainly want to be sure nobody else is noticing her missing.

Multiple Intruder Options...

- Yeah I dunno, the idea that there's more than one person sneaking around the house seems odd. I mean, we haven't even positively established ONE intruder was in the house without him inviting a buddy to come with him. The only way I can think there were two intruders is if they were the Laurel & Hardy of murderers....one smart guy and one bumbling partner.

LOL! Sounds like the R's!!!! That tickled my funny bone.

Its like world building in Sci-fi/fantasy writing. The more you add, the more out of this world it becomes.

UKGuy · Feb 27, 2011

Toltec said:
Are you saying the panties in the panty drawer are stained??? YUCK!

I know the Ramseys decided JonBenet was too old to ask to be wiped so I gather she did not wipe herself properly. That would explain the stained panties. Someone as rich as the Ramseys would not even take the time to buy this poor child new panties.

My daughter turned 6 this month and I still wipe her bottom because I know what will happen if I don't. She is learning to wipe herself with these wet flushable wipes and hopefully she will be able to wipe herself on her own.

The size 12 panties came from somewhere...knowing now they were not in JonBenets panty drawer...my guess is that they were in the basement wine cellar.

Toltec,

The size 12 panties came from somewhere...knowing now they were not in JonBenets panty drawer...my guess is that they were in the basement wine cellar.

They may have been upstairs in Patsy's drawer? But someone other than Patsy knew of their existence!

I reckon prior to the Atlanta 2000 interview Patsy had been briefed by Lin Wood to expect questions regarding the size-12 Bloomingdale underwear. Their size had been leaked to the press before the meeting. Indirect reference to this is mentioned in the interview:

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt
Patsy Knows JonBenet Was Wearing Size-12 Underwear

5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that
0092
1 detail?
2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
3 made such a big detail.
4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --
0093
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

Patsy's explanation for JonBenet wearing size-12 underwear is that she herself purchased a set of Day-Of-The-Week size-12 underwear for her niece Jenny. Patsy unequivocally states that she opened and placed a set of Day-Of-The-Week size-12 underwear into JonBenet's underwear drawer. Who this set was originally intended for is independent of Patsy's declaration, or whether two, three or thirty-three sets sets were initially purchased. What was established is that no intruder brought the size-12's into the house.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt
Patsy States She Put Size-12 Underwear into JonBenet's Drawer

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
1 A. Right.
2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

So why would Patsy make all these claims, if it had been her who redressed JonBenet then removed the already worn size-6 pair, and the remaining new size-12's pairs?

She would know her statements were complete nonsense, note in her interview how amnesia makes a regular appearance. So is Patsy is attempting to inject ambiguity into her version of events, except when queried about her purchase of the Bloomingdale size-12's and her placement of them into JonBenet's underwear drawer!

If you buy all this then it must mean someone else restaged aspects of Patsy's staging. This I contend is why JonBenet was discovered in the wine-cellar with a barbie-doll and bloodstained barbie nightgown, all wrapped in a white blanket. Someone else had started to restage the crime not completed it and had to simply wrap JonBenet, along with the prior artifacts, in the white blanket and place her out of sight in the wine-cellar!

.

DeeDee249 · Feb 27, 2011

All the speculation of who, where, and how and with what someone drugged the pineapple doesn't change the FACT that NO drugs were found in her system. One important thing to remember- She died about 2 hours after eating it. At death, all metabolic activity STOPS. This means not only digestion, but anything that would circulate through the bloodstream (like a drug). It would not continue to "pass through" her system until it was gone or be filtered out by the liver or kidneys (where its presence would be detected anyway). These organs are all tested for drugs/alcohol at an autopsy they don't do a blood test. Just because the autopsy was more than 30 hours after her death, that does not mean any drug would have "worn off". That happens only when someone is alive and metabolism and circulation come into play.

qtc · Feb 27, 2011

DeeDee249 said:
JB's prints were NOT on the bowl. ONLY Patsy and BR's prints were on the bowl, and BR's prints were on the glass.

Click to expand...

What about the spoon, were any prints found on it?

There was additional pineapple in the fridge that matched that in the bowl, as well as both matched the pineapple (even the rind) of the pineapple in JB's digestive tract. This was FRESH pineapple, not canned. So it wasn't "opened".

Click to expand...

Ok, I didnt know it was fresh. Then somebody had to cut it. Was the other part that was in the fridge uncut, or was it cut up and in a bowl?

Seems to me that Patsy gave it to her and for whatever reason is flat out lying about it.

A neighbor saw what they described as "strange moving lights" (presumed to be the someone walking or moving about with a flashlight) around midnight, the general time JB was thought to have died. The family was back home by 10 pm, and it is assumed the pineapple was not eaten in the dark, but rather in the dining area off the kitchen, where the bowl and spoon were found, sometime between 10 pm and her death, about 2 hours later. There would be nothing particularly noteworthy about seeing lights on OR off in the R house, and nothing was noted with the exception of the moving lights. I am sure JB ate the pineapple, given to her by her mother or possibly brother, as their prints alone are on the bowl.
As far as the lights, it really wasn't that late. 10 pm- midnight may be late to some, but in many households people would still be up and about at that hour, especially a holiday like Christmas with so much tidying up to do.

Click to expand...

My thoughts were that, supposedly, they stated being in bed by about 10:30-ish. (Please correct me if I am wrong)
I was just wondering if lights were seen on after that time (to indicate that JB and possibly B had gotten back up and had tea and ate the pineapple).

DeeDee249 · Feb 27, 2011

qtc said:
DeeDee249 said:

What about the spoon, were any prints found on it?

Ok, I didnt know it was fresh. Then somebody had to cut it. Was the other part that was in the fridge uncut, or was it cut up and in a bowl?

Seems to me that Patsy gave it to her and for whatever reason is flat out lying about it.

My thoughts were that, supposedly, they stated being in bed by about 10:30-ish. (Please correct me if I am wrong)
I was just wondering if lights were seen on after that time (to indicate that JB and possibly B had gotten back up and had tea and ate the pineapple).

Click to expand...

I haven't seen anything about prints on the spoon. I'd have loved to see it tested for DNA (in saliva) as well.
Patsy said she always bought fresh pineapple already cut up from the store. My market sells it that way, too, along with other kinds of fresh fruit cut up- peaches, grapefruit, fruit cocktail, watermelon. They are sold in the refrigerated section, not the produce section.
Patsy's reason for giving it to her is simple- JB was probably hungry when they got home, kids usually do not eat much at a party, especially when there are other kids to play with.
Patsy's reason for lying about it is simple, too. The parents had a "story" to stick to about that night-they said JB was asleep when they got home, they put her to bed, and never saw her alive again. If Patsy admitted giving her the pineapple, even though that was innocent in and of itself, they would have to admit that JB wasn't asleep like they said. Then LE might wonder why they lied about it in the first place.
Remember, they already lied about BR- they said he was asleep the next morning the whole time after they found the note and called 911. Later, JR admitted they knew he wasn't asleep, but felt it was easier to just say he was asleep to "keep him out if it". Of course, BR's voice was also heard in the background during the 911 call, so that may be why JR finally had to admit he had been awake at that time.

qtc · Feb 27, 2011

DeeDee249 said:
qtc said:

I haven't seen anything about prints on the spoon. I'd have loved to see it tested for DNA (in saliva) as well.
Patsy said she always bought fresh pineapple already cut up from the store. My market sells it that way, too, along with other kinds of fresh fruit cut up- peaches, grapefruit, fruit cocktail, watermelon. They are sold in the refrigerated section, not the produce section.
Patsy's reason for giving it to her is simple- JB was probably hungry when they got home, kids usually do not eat much at a party, especially when there are other kids to play with.
Patsy's reason for lying about it is simple, too. The parents had a "story" to stick to about that night-they said JB was asleep when they got home, they put her to bed, and never saw her alive again. If Patsy admitted giving her the pineapple, even though that was innocent in and of itself, they would have to admit that JB wasn't asleep like they said. Then LE might wonder why they lied about it in the first place.
Remember, they already lied about BR- they said he was asleep the next morning the whole time after they found the note and called 911. Later, JR admitted they knew he wasn't asleep, but felt it was easier to just say he was asleep to "keep him out if it". Of course, BR's voice was also heard in the background during the 911 call, so that may be why JR finally had to admit he had been awake at that time.

Click to expand...

So we know that JB at some of it because it was in her system. You are saying that it was a harmless snack that Patsy gave her, but they had to exclude it from their story to simplify it. So what exactly would saliva prove?

Its one thing to say your son is asleep to keep him out of it, but to lie about your events that night concerning your daughter is crazy (looking from the point of view that they are innocent).

Agatha_C · Feb 27, 2011

qtc said:
DeeDee249 said:

So we know that JB at some of it because it was in her system. You are saying that it was a harmless snack that Patsy gave her, but they had to exclude it from their story to simplify it. So what exactly would saliva prove?

Its one thing to say your son is asleep to keep him out of it, but to lie about your events that night concerning your daughter is crazy (looking from the point of view that they are innocent).

Click to expand...

If they admit that Jonbenet ate pineapple before she went to bed, than they have to admit that she wasnt asleep when they got home, which they both had stated was the case. Patsy said she was "Zonked out". JR said she was so sound asleep that when he was taking her out of the car he almost dropped her and she didnt wake at all, not a grumble nor a peep. Patsy, undressed and redressed Jonbenets lower half and the child just laid there sound asleep. The entire family went to bed shortly afterwards and no one got up to feed Jonbenet.

The pineapple lie is important, because too admit she ate it is to admit they lied about her being asleep when they got home. The pineapple lie was the lessor of the two evils. Look dumb and answer fewer questions or admit you're a liar and answer many more that you would rather not have too answer.

DeeDee249 · Feb 27, 2011

Agatha_C said:
qtc said:

If they admit that Jonbenet ate pineapple before she went to bed, than they have to admit that she wasnt asleep when they got home, which they both had stated was the case. Patsy said she was "Zonked out". JR said she was so sound asleep that when he was taking her out of the car he almost dropped her and she didnt wake at all, not a grumble nor a peep. Patsy, undressed and redressed Jonbenets lower half and the child just laid there sound asleep. The entire family went to bed shortly afterwards and no one got up to feed Jonbenet.

The pineapple lie is important, because too admit she ate it is to admit they lied about her being asleep when they got home. The pineapple lie was the lessor of the two evils. Look dumb and answer fewer questions or admit you're a liar and answer many more that you would rather not have too answer.

Click to expand...

That wasn't my quote, but JB's saliva on the spoon proves she ate THAT pineapple. The Rs suggested she may have eaten it at the White's, or from a tupperware bowl found in the home. The White's have said no pineapple was served- no one at the party has said otherwise. No pineapple residue was found in the Tupperware bowl. And the pineapple itself was taken into evidence and tested for drugs as well, so that should prove once and for all that JB consumed no drugged pineapple.
And speaking of THAT bowl

Agatha_C · Feb 28, 2011

DeeDee249 said:
That wasn't my quote, but JB's saliva on the spoon proves she ate THAT pineapple. The Rs suggested she may have eaten it at the White's, or from a tupperware bowl found in the home. The White's have said no pineapple was served- no one at the party has said otherwise. No pineapple residue was found in the Tupperware bowl. And the pineapple itself was taken into evidence and tested for drugs as well, so that should prove once and for all that JB consumed no drugged pineapple.
And speaking of THAT bowl

DeeDee, Im sorry it quoted you. I dont know how that happened but I'll pay closer attention next time, again I am so sorry. How did it put your HAT on someone else's post? Never mind just figured out how to fix it.

Agatha_C · Feb 28, 2011

Agatha_C said:
If they admit that Jonbenet ate pineapple before she went to bed, than they have to admit that she wasnt asleep when they got home, which they both had stated was the case. Patsy said she was "Zonked out". JR said she was so sound asleep that when he was taking her out of the car he almost dropped her and she didnt wake at all, not a grumble nor a peep. Patsy, undressed and redressed Jonbenets lower half and the child just laid there sound asleep. The entire family went to bed shortly afterwards and no one got up to feed Jonbenet.

The pineapple lie is important, because too admit she ate it is to admit they lied about her being asleep when they got home. The pineapple lie was the lessor of the two evils. Look dumb and answer fewer questions or admit you're a liar and answer many more that you would rather not have too answer.

I have figured out how the wrong name appeared in my quote of QTC post. LOL... Yikes what a mess that could create.

DeeDee249 · Feb 28, 2011

Agatha_C said:
DeeDee, Im sorry it quoted you. I dont know how that happened but I'll pay closer attention next time, again I am so sorry. How did it put your HAT on someone else's post? Never mind just figured out how to fix it.

No problem- that happens sometimes. When I post with a quote I always have to remember to be sure I start writing after the last quote bracket, otherwise it adds what you write to the previous quote.

If JonBenet's death was an accident...

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