PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

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Well, I am glad my heirs are minding their own business and letting me waste my money on shoes and hot stone massages. And how would anyone know if RG wrote a check to Salvation Army or to a church or a homeless shelter? You don't even have to itemize those contributions for taxes. No one can buy a steak in Bellefonte for $15 bucks? Or a $5 appetizer? Or a $3 glass of wine? Times two, if a couple goes out for dinner. You can do that in Bradford, PA and Clarion and Erie and Franklin and Butler and Greensburg...Heck fire, evena Big Mac meal runs to $5 or $6 bucks. And let's not talk about Starbucks coffee.

We are talking about a guy making $129 K when he vanished. That is a few thousand Big Macks!

The current investigators say that the 1998 case was "a close call" and the NY Times reporter who wrote the article I quote in the post above states even many of the current victims did not want to go on the record now against Sandusky.

The investigator spoke after the NYT story and said that there was enough to charge Sandusky in 1998.

Thus the 2002 case is relevant to the discussion of RG's involvement, since by 2002 nearly a dozen people at PSU knew about either the 1998 case, the 2000 oral sex incident, or the 2002 rape in the showers--or all of the above.

Nobody in the administration knew about 2000. The only people that knew about 1998 and 2002 were Spanier and Schultz.

RG should have known about the 2002 case, and had he passed on prosecuting then, I would be as critical of him as I am of the PSU adminstrators and coaches. I would be as critical of him as I am of our pedophile-enabling governor, who, in whose term as AG, was content to let Sandusky run loose.

Actually, 2002 is just one witness. There is no victim as of yet. If this were just a single witness, I could understand RFG not prosecuting.

In 1998, there were two victims, three witnesses to Sandusky's admission of committing the act (which wasn't rape).

So anytime anyone wants to argue that RG "made a mistake" (hello, hindsight!) or should have proceeded on a complaint without provable sexual contact in 1998 (no eyewitnesses, no DNA, and a kid whose story was of "hugging") then I expect a full-throated condemnation of those who knew about RAPE in 2002 and oral sex in 2000 and Sandusky's continued contact with Second Mile kids and his work with camps (at Penn State branch campuses) and high schools.

Apples to oranges. I am quite critical of the administrators who had a duty to report the act in 2002. 2002, which a more serious allegation, actually has less evidence.

By using this line, you are saying it isn't a criminal act, at any level for a grown naked man to bear hug a child in the shower.

Who had the BEST chance of stopping Sandusky?

Arguably, RFG on two levels:

1. He could have prosecuted the 1998 case.

2. He could have called a grand jury to investigate in 1998.

As to Sandusky's wider reputation, for starters see the AP story from 12/11/2011 about how Sandusky failed a background check in 2010 done by Juniata College. I can't link tonight; I am on the iPad, but I will post the link tomorrow.

Sandusky fail the background check because he was being investigated. The Grand Jury had been investigating him for a year at that point.
 
As promised, here are the links regarding who knew about Sandusky outside of Centre County:

Here is the NY Times article I linked to above, quoting someone from the current investigation. It's a long article, but well worth it for detailed insight into the thinking of current investigators:

Here is what the actual investigator, Ron Scheffler, who wrote the report said:

"At the very minimum, there was enough evidence for some charges, like corruption of minors."


http://postgazette.com/pg/11352/1197680-454.stm#ixzz1gtLZhjYr

Schreffler went on to praise RFG, and I certainly praise him other cases as well. This one was possibly RFG's greatest failure. JKA actually praised Schreffler's ability as well.

The only question I have is if RFG made his decision prior to CYS making theirs.

In addition, there are dozens of mainstream articles that have raised questions about why, when Sandusky retired in 1999 as an assistant coach of the year, fresh from a National Championship with the "Linebacker U" reputation, there was no speculation about his taking a full-time position or later, coming back from retirement (as many speculated about Urban Meyer and continue to speculate about Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy and others at the top of the profession.) Of course, no one will admit to hearing rumors about Sandusky, because they won't risk being categorized along with the PSU coaches who "knew" and did nothing. But college football is a small, small world, one in which most people are at best 1 or 2 degrees of separation from each other.

The obvious reason, Paterno told him that he wouldn't be retiring. It is not relevant to the colossal lapse of judgment (at least) of Ray Gricar in neither investigating the 1998 incident nor prosecuting it.
 
We are talking about a guy making $129 K when he vanished. That is a few thousand Big Macks!



The investigator spoke after the NYT story and said that there was enough to charge Sandusky in 1998.



Nobody in the administration knew about 2000. The only people that knew about 1998 and 2002 were Spanier and Schultz.



Actually, 2002 is just one witness. There is no victim as of yet. If this were just a single witness, I could understand RFG not prosecuting.

In 1998, there were two victims, three witnesses to Sandusky's admission of committing the act (which wasn't rape).



Apples to oranges. I am quite critical of the administrators who had a duty to report the act in 2002. 2002, which a more serious allegation, actually has less evidence.

By using this line, you are saying it isn't a criminal act, at any level for a grown naked man to bear hug a child in the shower.



Arguably, RFG on two levels:

1. He could have prosecuted the 1998 case.

2. He could have called a grand jury to investigate in 1998.



Sandusky fail the background check because he was being investigated. The Grand Jury had been investigating him for a year at that point.

Did you read the NYTimes story? The statements from the investigators quoted by this mainstream reporter simply disagree with you. We aren't going to get anywhere here if the point of replying to posts is simply to rebut them without considering what the mainstream media presents. I am neither a reporter on the NY Times nor an investigator working on the current Sandusky case. What I have is what I provided, a link to a story in which the current investigators say the 1998 case was a close call (as it seems to me to be, logically). This supports Lauro's (the child welfare agent's) contention that what he learned didn't arise to child abuse. Of course RG could have gone the other way; my point (and the NY Times reporter's point, and the point of the investigators quoted in the article) is that it was a "close call," that a prosecutor could have gone either way, ethically and professionally, without abrogating his duty to the citizens of the county, one of whom was the famous and powerful Jerry Sandusky, who also deserved to be considered innocent until proven guilty, and the others who made the claims about showering, etc. It is clear, then, that a reasonable person could see either bringing the case forward in 1998--or not. It is worth remembering that a prosecution for child sex abuse is tantamount to ending an educator's career, whether found guilty or not. So it is right and fair that the accused's rights, especially in a case in which no overt sexual contact was reported by the victim, be protected along with the victim's. At that point, RG did not have any indication that a 55 year-old man revered for his work with troubled youth, had a problem with little boys. This was the first public indication of Sandusky's problem.

So we can't blame RG for not having a crystal ball to see into 2000, 2002, 2011 and know that he should prosecute. And doesn't this just make everyone who knew about 1998 and then about 2000, 2002 etc. just look worse?

We do not know who in the PSU administration knew or didn't know about the allegations in 1998, 2000, or 2002. To learn the truth about who knew what and when they knew it, there are a number of investigations under way. Two of the administrators have been charged with perjury, so they aren't all that believable. The janitor's supervisor knew in 2000, because he reported it. The PSU president knew about 1998 and 2002. That seems like enough to me.

I have no idea why anyone would think that the 1998, with no adult eyewitness, no allegation of oral sex or penetration or even "fondling," nothing more than "he said/he said," is a better case than an anal rape witnessed by an adult, reported immediately to another adult, and within one day to the most powerful man in Pennsylvania, who confirms that the witness was upset and that he (most powerful man) told those nominally above him in the food chain. So in this case, there was RAPE and a WITNESS and REPORTING. In 1998, there was he said/he said, and an ambiguous apology overheard by the police, which Sandusky has already "spun" in the media, and which will go nowhere in court. The very fact that the University Police set up a sting indicates that THEY felt they needed more. No one does a sting unless they feel they can't make a case without a confession or catching a criminal in the act somehow. Every mainstream article, every news story, reflects an awareness that the 2002 case, with the eyewitness, is the heart of the Grand Jury presentment, because it supports the allegations of Victim 1 (2008) as well as all of the other victims that were identified.

That Victim 6 (2002) has not been identified is not a plus point for anyone who knew about that rape, since it is the indifference of all of those adults that created that situation. Had Paterno or McQueary or Curley or Shultz or Spanier acted immediately, it would have been easy to identify the child, get him help and he would be able to testify.

And I have no idea if "naked hugging" is a criminal act, although it is very creepy and a clear signal (to our 21st century experiences) that an adult is far over the appropriate boundaries. To my mind, it is certainly not the same as oral sex or anal rape, which are horrific. The issue is whether a prosecutor (any prosecutor) could have nailed Sandusky in 1998, for "naked hugging and showering" while he was still working for Paterno. The current investigators say that even today it won't be easy to convict Sandusky, with all there is now. Read the article, and you will see that. There is also the fact that current prosecutors are concerned enough to ask for a change of venue from Centre County--which almost never happens.

I agree with the prosecutors and investigators as quoted by the NY Times. Others are entitled to their own opinions, although I frankly don't understand the purpose of making RG out to be the villain or of minimizing the 2002 RAPE case, other than to scapegoat RG and whitewash Paterno. RG can't speak for himself, being deceased, so I am willing to present the expert opinions of others in his defense.
 
Did you read the NYTimes story? The statements from the investigators quoted by this mainstream reporter simply disagree with you.

Schreffler didn't speak to the NYT; he did speak to the PPG. The NYT didn't have him or the report.

Now, who do I believe, a reporter that didn't see the report or the author of that report. It is pretty much a no brainer who is more familiar with what happened.

We aren't going to get anywhere here if the point of replying to posts is simply to rebut them without considering what the mainstream media presents.

The Pittsburgh Post Gazette is a major newspaper, around since 1786, that has won for Pulitzers. Sorry, but that claim is pure nonsense.

I am neither a reporter on the NY Times nor an investigator working on the current Sandusky case. What I have is what I provided, a link to a story in which the current investigators say the 1998 case was a close call (as it seems to me to be, logically).

The investigator at the time said that some charges could have been filed. Here is what JKA said about him:

And on that point, one can only hope that on Tuesday next or at least at some time in the future that Inv. Schreffler, a truly top-notch investigator, is permitted to testify to the entirety of what occurred in 1998.

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/01/3005573/where-the-buck-stopped.html#storylink=cpy

Now I didn't encourage Schreffler to talk to any newspaper and I didn't encourage JKA opine about his abilities, though I welcome both.

This supports Lauro's (the child welfare agent's) contention that what he learned didn't arise to child abuse.

Lauro claims he never knew about the interview.

So we can't blame RG for not having a crystal ball to see into 2000, 2002, 2011 and know that he should prosecute. And doesn't this just make everyone who knew about 1998 and then about 2000, 2002 etc. just look worse?

I don't. You are the one that raised 2002 and now 2000. I've said that they are not relevant and that there is no evidence RFG was ever aware of either.

I have no idea why anyone would think that the 1998, with no adult eyewitness, no allegation of oral sex or penetration or even "fondling," nothing more than "he said/he said," is a better case than an anal rape witnessed by an adult, reported immediately to another adult, and within one day to the most powerful man in Pennsylvania, who confirms that the witness was upset and that he (most powerful man) told those nominally above him in the food chain.

In 1998, there were three witnesses to Sandusky's admission of conduct (not to mention him saying it was "wrong," which could have referred to something else). We also had two victims. In 2002, we have a witness, no admission, and no victim (Amendola has claimed that he will produce the victim, who will say nothing happened.).

In 2000, we have no direct witness, and no victim.


And I have no idea if "naked hugging" is a criminal act, although it is very creepy and a clear signal (to our 21st century experiences) that an adult is far over the appropriate boundaries.

It probably does fall under the open lewdness clause of Unlawful Contact with Minor. There are 4 counts, on that. You can read about the charges in regard to the 1998 case here: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/19/2992124/speculative-reasons.html

It includes links to the statutes, you can read them for yourself and then do what I did, and look at the case law.

So let's talk about facts.

1. Sandusky is facing 4 felony charges and 7 misdemeanors on the 1998 incident, even though one victim was unable to testify. The charges were filed by the Attorney General, Linda Kelly.

2. Ron Schreffler, the investigator who wrote the report in 1998, stated that there was enough evidence in 1998 to charge Sandusky for some offenses.

3. Even with that one additional victim being able to testify in 1998, Ray Gricar chose not to file charges against Sandusky. Ray Gricar also declined, so far as we know, to request a grand jury to investigate Sandusky, a power which he possessed.

Now, those are the facts in this matter.
 
JJ, have I failed to make my argument clear? I am not saying the RG should have known or filed charges about the incidents in 2000 or 2002.I am saying that had PSU officials NOT covered up those incidents, RG or the state could have filed charges then, with far more than the he said/he said case in 1998.

Please do not lecture me about my home-town newspaper, to which I have subscribed for decades. You can surely see that Schreffler is NOT the investigator(s) or the person affiliated with the CURRENT case who commented on what THEY saw when they looked at the 1998 case ("a close call" in terms of whether or not to prosecute) as stated in the Times.

I am not at all surprised that any police investigator, convinced he has found a criminal, would like the prosecutor to file charges and move ahead. That's their job in the system. The job of the prosecutor is to determine if there is sufficient EVIDENCE, as determined not by a police officer, but by someone who must ARGUE against a defense attorney, to get a conviction. That fact is one reason why there are so many plea bargains and ARD programs: no one wants to try a case against a likely guilty individual and LOSE because a jury thinks the case wasn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Then the criminal can never be charged again.

It's also not a matter of believing or not believing Schreffler, who clearly did all he could to nail Sandusky and who was clearly correct in his instincts about the 1998 case. It's a matter of inderstanding 1) that his perspective would not have been RG's, based on their differing responsibilities; 2) That citing Schreffler to rebut the current investigators is to truly compare apples to oranges, as the current people cited in the NY Times article were not involved in 1998 and were commenting on their 2011 perspective of whether what was available in 1998 was sufficient evidence to move forward at that time. "A close call," is what these professionals said. It's not NY TImes vs. Post-Gazette. It's what we can learn when we piece the whole puzzle together, learning what we can from each source. Schreffler has strong feelings about 1998; he was involved and wanted an arrest and did more than anyone else, until 2009 or so, to stop this guy. That doesn't mean that RG would look at what he had and conclude that he could get a conviction of child sex abuse on Paterno's top assistant. And if anyone thinks that wouldn't have made a difference has not paid attention to how the eyewitness McQuery has been vilified by Paterno-defenders. Lots of people just don't want to believe that Joe Payerno can do any wrong.

Lauro was an experienced child welfare investigator. They make judgments about these cases all the time, without benefit of "sting" interviews. It would be interesting to know why Schreffler, carrying on the police investigation, didn't communicate with Lauro about the sting attempt, but the likely answer is that everybody followed their own protocols and interacted when those paths crossed. But we can't dismiss the fact that Lauro conducted an investigation, knew firsthand what the boy, the mother and others said and found no evidence of abuse. That doesn't mean there was no abuse; it means that what Lauro was able to learn didn't rise to that standard. I am not sure that hearing Sandusky say he was "sorry" and wishing he was dead (or whatever) would have made a difference when the child involved was not alleging overt sexual contact and the suspect was Paterno's top assistant.

1. The fact that there was a sting attempt and a 100-page folder on the 1998 case indicates that their were people who took the allegations seriously.
2. RG's reasoning about the 1998 case could only be available to us (the public) if he left notes or made statements to others (investigators and prosecutors) in a public context. I am not going to trust anyone else's hearsay statement about RG--too many people wanting to cover their own butts or continue to undermine RG's reputation--RG, who is, conveniently for them, not able to defend himself.
3. I am always interested in JKA's thoughts, and I agree that it will be most interesting to hear from Schreffler at trial and to read depositions from the many civil cases that will arise from this case. However, I will bear in mind the police vs. prosecutor difference when assessing his statements.
4. Whatever else went on, in 1998 police, prosecutor, and child welfare conducted investigations into the allegations. In 2000 and 2002--actual sexual assault was swept under the rug, hidden, covered up.

I watched a lot of the Casey Anthony trial last summer and thought that the prosecutors did a great job making a case against her. But a jury didn't even convict her of child abuse, let alone felony murder. And she was a very hard defendent to like, in a state where she was deeply despised. So I wonder how RG or any prosecutor would have fared against Sandusky, whose later misdeeds were covered up by the most powerful people in Centre County. In the end, the cover up of the 2000 oral sex incident and the 2002 rape may tell us a lot about what a prosecutor would have been up against in 1998, which unlike oral sex contact and RAPE, was a "close call."
 
A bizarrely bad article on the case: http://americanfreepress.net/?p=2641

I'm not sure why you think this is a bad article. The anonymous source the writer cites is pretty much channeling you, to the point where my first thought was that the source WAS you. And my second and third thought as well. Maybe there wasn't a live source--just a guy who read all the CDT blog posts, in which case you would have a serious beef with the guy.

I think it is a bad article because it raises real problems with the case but treats them as "straw men" in order to support the walkaway hypothesis, with a lot of rehashing of how much RG takes out of his bank in cash, reading Pamela West's fiction book based on the Aardsma case, etc. It relies on one source and rather predictably (given that the author is a 9/11 and New World Order conspiracy guy) presents RG as a shady figure plotting his own disappearance for years and making it look like foul play or suicide.

Now, the link to the Aardsma case that interests me is whether the child molester proposed as Betsy's likely killer in the more recent nonfiction book had any connections to Jerry Sandusky (on the general notion of birds of a feather flocking together.)
 
JJ, have I failed to make my argument clear? I am not saying the RG should have known or filed charges about the incidents in 2000 or 2002.I am saying that had PSU officials NOT covered up those incidents, RG or the state could have filed charges then, with far more than the he said/he said case in 1998.

Which is totally irrelevant to this thread. It is like saying that RFG should have used psychic powers, if he had any.

Please do not lecture me about my home-town newspaper, to which I have subscribed for decades. You can surely see that Schreffler is NOT the investigator(s) or the person affiliated with the CURRENT case who commented on what THEY saw when they looked at the 1998 case ("a close call" in terms of whether or not to prosecute) as stated in the Times.

I shouldn't have to, but you certainly didn't appreciate the value of the Post Gazette as a major newspaper. It quite clear is, and it got more information than the NYT.


"They" relied on both Schreffler and his report. We've heard from Schreffler.

I am not at all surprised that any police investigator, convinced he has found a criminal, would like the prosecutor to file charges and move ahead. That's their job in the system. The job of the prosecutor is to determine if there is sufficient EVIDENCE, as determined not by a police officer, but by someone who must ARGUE against a defense attorney, to get a conviction.

And we have seen a PROSECUTOR do just that, but her name is Kelly, not Gricar. She is doing it with slightly less evidence than he had.


It's also not a matter of believing or not believing Schreffler, who clearly did all he could to nail Sandusky and who was clearly correct in his instincts about the 1998 case. It's a matter of inderstanding 1) that his perspective would not have been RG's, based on their differing responsibilities; 2) That citing Schreffler to rebut the current investigators is to truly compare apples to oranges, as the current people cited in the NY Times article were not involved in 1998 and were commenting on their 2011 perspective of whether what was available in 1998 was sufficient evidence to move forward at that time. "A close call," is what these professionals said.

It is a matter of judgment on RFG's part, at least. Remember again, in 2011, they had less on the 1998 incident than RFG had.


It's not NY TImes vs. Post-Gazette.

Again, you are the one that raised it. The Post-Gazette is a major Pulitzer Prize winning newspaper and in this case, it got the interview.

That doesn't mean that RG would look at what he had and conclude that he could get a conviction of child sex abuse on Paterno's top assistant.

It does mean that he didn't try, which is uncharacteristic. It also means that he didn't try for seven years, during five of which Sandusky was no longer Sandusky's assistant.

Are you suggesting that RFG didn't file charges because of who Sandusky was?

And if anyone thinks that wouldn't have made a difference has not paid attention to how the eyewitness McQuery has been vilified by Paterno-defenders. Lots of people just don't want to believe that Joe Payerno can do any wrong.

Paterno had no knowledge of the 1998 incident, until the grand jury. It wouldn't involve him. And there was more than one eyewitness in 1998. I'd assume that cops are use to being vilified.

Lauro was an experienced child welfare investigator. They make judgments about these cases all the time, without benefit of "sting" interviews. It would be interesting to know why Schreffler, carrying on the police investigation, didn't communicate with Lauro about the sting attempt, but the likely answer is that everybody followed their own protocols and interacted when those paths crossed.

Probably because it was supposedly independent.

I am not sure that hearing Sandusky say he was "sorry" and wishing he was dead (or whatever) would have made a difference when the child involved was not alleging overt sexual contact and the suspect was Paterno's top assistant.

Oh, that isn't the damning part. The damning part is **I bear hugged you son in the shower,** and "maybe" his genitals touch the boy. It is the admission to the act.

You have to say that a grown naked man hugging a naked pre-teen boy is a public shower isn't criminal. I'll disagree with you on that, though maybe Amendola will want you serve on the jury.

2. RG's reasoning about the 1998 case could only be available to us (the public) if he left notes or made statements to others (investigators and prosecutors) in a public context. I am not going to trust anyone else's hearsay statement about RG--too many people wanting to cover their own butts or continue to undermine RG's reputation--RG, who is, conveniently for them, not able to defend himself.

I've never discussed his motives, only that for whatever reason, it was a colossal failure of judgment. And it might very well be RFG choice not to be here to defend himself.

4. Whatever else went on, in 1998 police, prosecutor, and child welfare conducted investigations into the allegations. In 2000 and 2002--actual sexual assault was swept under the rug, hidden, covered up.

Again, what happened in 2000, 2002, 2007, and 2011 is not relevant, to what happened in 1998. It really sounds like you are trying to deflect attention away from 1998.

As for the rest, unless something comes up indicating RFG knew about 2000 or 2002, those incidents are not relevant to RFG. You can discuss those on the Sandusky thread, where they are relevant.
 
I'm not sure why you think this is a bad article. The anonymous source the writer cites is pretty much channeling you, to the point where my first thought was that the source WAS you. And my second and third thought as well. Maybe there wasn't a live source--just a guy who read all the CDT blog posts, in which case you would have a serious beef with the guy.

No, because, first I think 20/20 Vision could be a coincidence. Second, I never gotten the information wrong on the dog. Third, I have indicated that video does not show RFG behind the Courthouse on 4/15 and think the Fenton sighting is weak. Four, I question the similarity with the site of Roy Gricar's suicide. Fifth, I would not citing the Lufkin sighting, as it was ruled out. Sixth, I never would have used SPM's "tip of the iceberg" comment to refer to information about RFG as opposed to what LE did. I would not have used "homicide is the least likely" since she pulled that back.

Seventh, and most importantly, I wouldn't note that the evidence pointed to walkaway strongly and would note that much of it circumstantial. We only have one post 4/16/05 sighting that hasn't been ruled out.

Now, the link to the Aardsma case that interests me is whether the child molester proposed as Betsy's likely killer in the more recent nonfiction book had any connections to Jerry Sandusky (on the general notion of birds of a feather flocking together.)

No, and he died in 2002; further, he was acquitted and successfully sued the employer that withdrew the job offer.
 
Who was eyewitness to Sandusky's child sexual abuse in 1998?

As to "colossal failure of judgment" on RG's part, why do you suppose the CURRENT investigators quoted in the NY Times essay say the decision about whether to prosecute was a "close call"? Not even a "failure of judgment," a "close call"?

Why would I want to deflect attention from 1998's events, as these are the ones that we know RG was involved in? What seems unfair to me is castigating RG for a "colossal" failure of judgment when career prosecutors and investigators tell the Pulitzer-prize winning NY Times 1998 was a close call? (And newspaper needn't be major prize winners to do good work on a story, somthis prize thing is silling. I am not in anynway discounting the P-G, Schreffler, or that story. Why don't the observations of those connected to the current case and investigation.

Many people who know about PSU football say it isn't credible that Sandusky would have been investigated for child sex abuse in the football locker room in 1998 (or thereafter) and Paterno would not know about it. What else explains Paterno telling him shortly thereafter that he would never become head coach? Wouldn't Schreffler, as a top investigator, or someone else have ASKED other coaches if they had ever observed or heard about the 1998
incident? If they went to the trouble of doing a sting, wouldn't someone have ASKED Paterno what he knew about this guy's activities in the PSU locker room?

Part of the problem is that we will never know exactly what went on in 1998--RG can't tell his story and the investigation was controlled by PSU, which to my mind at least has covered up for this guy for years. And I love how the walkaway scenario always works so well to trash RG's character. For all we know, he was on his way to talk to what he thought was another victim of Sandusky and was eliminated.
 
I am curious about whether those of us following the Gricar case think that RG had a chance to convict Sandusky of some sort of child abuse felony in 1998, in Centre County, while Sandusky was a 55-year Penn State defensive coordinator with a spotless record who had been written up nationally as a hero for founding The Second Mile?
 
Here is a story about a national reporter who wrote about Sandusky's retirement in 1999--a year after RG decided not to bring charges.

What I do remember about the experience was the world-unto-itself isolation of the Penn State football complex. I did a couple early-morning interviews over there (not with Sandusky) and we might as well have been on the moon. It was the perfect place for a predator like Sandusky, and it's like that on most high-profile, football-driven campuses. But I'm only thinking about the consequences of that now.
Two things in particular haunt me. By the time I wrote the story, Sandusky's showering with a youngster had already triggered a campus investigation, albeit one that never became public. And the revelations in the "Jerry Sandusky Grand Jury Report" -- I recommend that to those of you who feel that Sandusky and Penn State officials are being railroaded fire up Mr. Google and read it -- reveal that some of Sandusky's worst behavior was going on right around this time. So I wrote a favorable story about a guy who was already a sexual predator.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jack_mccallum/11/08/sandusky/index.html#ixzz1lYIfk8Aa
 
Who was eyewitness to Sandusky's child sexual abuse in 1998?

Sandusky admitted to the mother of Victim 6, with two police officers listening in, including Schreffler. Then there were the two victims.

As to "colossal failure of judgment" on RG's part, why do you suppose the CURRENT investigators quoted in the NY Times essay say the decision about whether to prosecute was a "close call"? Not even a "failure of judgment," a "close call"?

Well, because they had not interviewed Scherffler nor viewed the report (we may get the chance).

Why would I want to deflect attention from 1998's events, as these are the ones that we know RG was involved in? What seems unfair to me is castigating RG for a "colossal" failure of judgment when career prosecutors and investigators tell the Pulitzer-prize winning NY Times 1998 was a close call?

I have no idea of motivation, yours or RFG's. It seems fair to be critical when the investigator says there was enough and when Sandusky was actually charged, with less evidence than was available to Mr. Gricar.

(And newspaper needn't be major prize winners to do good work on a story, somthis prize thing is silling. I am not in anynway discounting the P-G, Schreffler, or that story. Why don't the observations of those connected to the current case and investigation.

You said the Post Gazette wasn't a major newspaper; it obviously is.

Many people who know about PSU football say it isn't credible that Sandusky would have been investigated for child sex abuse in the football locker room in 1998 (or thereafter) and Paterno would not know about it.

The people that actually had the 1998 information say they didn't tell him. His reaction to McQueary, according to McQueary's testimony, indicates that.

Part of the problem is that we will never know exactly what went on in 1998--RG can't tell his story and the investigation was controlled by PSU, which to my mind at least has covered up for this guy for years.

When the investigators when to the DA's Office and CYS, it was no longer under the control of PSU.

And I love how the walkaway scenario always works so well to trash RG's character.

Or, he decided to walk away, because he didn't want to be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. This one indicated that personal security could be one reason: http://www.phillytrib.com/newsarticles/item/2327-cops-no-closer-to-finding-missing-d-a.html

Even the "bizarre" one indicated that RFG might have discovered something too hot to handle, that would endanger him, and that prompted his departure.

I've indicated that, if RFG walked away, I would not seek a motive. http://www.centredaily.com/2010/04/30/2397346/motive-your-honor-is-something.html

Now, please explain how these "trash RG's character?" The first two are the two most recent I've seen.

For all we know, he was on his way to talk to what he thought was another victim of Sandusky and was eliminated.

A meeting is possible, though a victim would be unlikely. Further, why wouldn't he look at the 1998 case prior to the meeting?
 
Here is a story about a national reporter who wrote about Sandusky's retirement in 1999--a year after RG decided not to bring charges.

So, are you now saying RFG was part of this isolated culture? I think there is a culture of cover-up at Penn State. The implication is that RFG was part of it, if that is what you are referring to.
 
There is another factor regarding the 1998.

Normally, child abuse cases went to JKA:

In 1998, I asked Mr. Gricar to be permitted to concentrate on the prosecution of child-abuse cases, in part because of the complex issues they presented and the amount of time which was required to prepare them. He agreed, with the proviso that I also handle elder-abuse/exploitation cases and all types of cases involving juvenile offenders. This remained my assignment for the next eight years, ... .

http://www.ourcampaigns.com/CandidateDetail.html?CandidateID=213309

JKA has indicated publicly that she only had minor involvement with the case, "...a brief pre-Ray Gricar involvement with the ’98 situation."

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/28/3001551/an-interesting-approach.html#storylink=cpy

She has also indicated that the decision not to prosecute was RFG's.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/12/10/132730/sandusky-penn-state-police-chief.html

Tom Harmon, the Director of University Police in 1998, testified at the preliminary hearing for Curley and Schultz. He was specifically, Farrell:

"Did you have any communication with Karen Arnold from the District Attorney's Office?"

He answered: "I did not." (p. 128)

That supports JKA's claim that her involvement was minor. The question would be if JKA was suppose to handle all child abuse cases (and yes, she may not have started handling all of them at that point), why didn't she do this one? Why was it specifically RFG handling the case?

Edit: I'll add a third question; why did Farrell ask Harmon that particular question?
 
I am curious about whether those of us following the Gricar case think that RG had a chance to convict Sandusky of some sort of child abuse felony in 1998, in Centre County, while Sandusky was a 55-year Penn State defensive coordinator with a spotless record who had been written up nationally as a hero for founding The Second Mile?

Looking at the reaction of the community, yes.

Further, you must remember that RFG could have prosecuted the case any time before he retired.
 
There is another factor regarding the 1998.

Normally, child abuse cases went to JKA:

In 1998, I asked Mr. Gricar to be permitted to concentrate on the prosecution of child-abuse cases, in part because of the complex issues they presented and the amount of time which was required to prepare them. He agreed, with the proviso that I also handle elder-abuse/exploitation cases and all types of cases involving juvenile offenders. This remained my assignment for the next eight years, ... .

http://www.ourcampaigns.com/CandidateDetail.html?CandidateID=213309

JKA has indicated publicly that she only had minor involvement with the case, "...a brief pre-Ray Gricar involvement with the ’98 situation."

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/28/3001551/an-interesting-approach.html#storylink=cpy

She has also indicated that the decision not to prosecute was RFG's.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/12/10/132730/sandusky-penn-state-police-chief.html

Tom Harmon, the Director of University Police in 1998, testified at the preliminary hearing for Curley and Schultz. He was specifically, Farrell:

"Did you have any communication with Karen Arnold from the District Attorney's Office?"

He answered: "I did not." (p. 128)

That supports JKA's claim that her involvement was minor. The question would be if JKA was suppose to handle all child abuse cases (and yes, she may not have started handling all of them at that point), why didn't she do this one? Why was it specifically RFG handling the case?

Edit: I'll add a third question; why did Farrell ask Harmon that particular question?

Here's an answer: Had the case gone to trial, it would have been explosive, the biggest case in Centre County history. Had he left the case to someone other than himself, regardless of the typical workings of the prosecutor's office, he would have been second-guessed and criticized for NOT taking the case himself. Here's the thing you want to avoid, JJ. Bringing charges in 1998 (not today, after Sandusky has been retired for 13 years) would have been a huge story.
 
So, are you now saying RFG was part of this isolated culture? I think there is a culture of cover-up at Penn State. The implication is that RFG was part of it, if that is what you are referring to.

I have no idea what you are talking about. RG did not work for Penn State. And we agree that the university has a culture of secrecy and appears to have covered up major crimes. I was asking for posters on this board to weigh in on the chances that the case, as it stood in 1998, could have been successfully prosecuted, given the stature and influence of the accused, as well as the lack of physical evidence of child abuse.
 
I have no idea of motivation, yours or RFG's. It seems fair to be critical when the investigator says there was enough and when Sandusky was actually charged, with less evidence than was available to Mr. Gricar.

This is an absurd statement. Read the Grand Jury reports. The current case has 10 victims that we know of. Many of their allegations overlap. The 2000 incident observed by the janitor has come to light, supported by statements from his supervisor. The 2002 case has AN EYEWITNESS TO ACTUAL RAPE as well as corroborating testimony from others, including Paterno, that support the fact that the eyewitness told others in positions of responsibility. They have adults at the high school where Victim 1 was a student, on record as SEEING Sandusky lying on a map with a child.

You insist on calling the police officers running the sting as "eyewitnesses." First, they didn't see child rape or hear it as McQueary did. They heard Sandusky say things that suggest a "guilty conscience" of some kind, but he also claimed to have done nothing more than shower, hug, and make incidental contact. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that someone, perhaps RG but perhaps others as well, felt that the best shot at a conviction would be to get him to confess to the mother. Whether THAT would have held up in court is anybody's guess. For all we know, some Centre County judge could have ruled their testimony or some tape inadmissible. But to say that RG had a better case than the state is bringing today is not an accurate representation of either situation. And you stilll will not even consider what the current investigators say about 1998.

I am sure everyone in law enforcement involved in the 1998 case, even tangentially, would love to go back and change what happened, now that the cover-up has failed and the whole world can see what Sandusky was and has been. Don't we all wish that someone had stopped him in 1998? Or 2000? Or 2002? 2008? But tell me: who in this God-awful chain of events knew the least about Sandusky? The guy who punted the case to the state (where Corbett buried it for YEARS) was related to him by marriage and didn't prosecute. Any "colossal failure of judgment" for those two? RG had a claim about some very questionable behavior but no physical evidence of sexual contact (e.g., obvious fondling, oral sex or rape), no statement from the children alleging such sexual contact, and no one who SAW such sexual contact. It was a weak case against a strong, powerful man with even more powerful contacts. (Ponder on the fact that his original bail was a JOKE, with no ankle monitoring, etc--in 2011, after the world had read the GJ presentment.)
 
Here's an answer: Had the case gone to trial, it would have been explosive, the biggest case in Centre County history. Had he left the case to someone other than himself, regardless of the typical workings of the prosecutor's office, he would have been second-guessed and criticized for NOT taking the case himself. Here's the thing you want to avoid, JJ. Bringing charges in 1998 (not today, after Sandusky has been retired for 13 years) would have been a huge story.

Bringing charges 10 years ago, which was quite possible, is also an option. Remember, he could file charges all the way through 2005.

If RFG did handle it all by himself, without consulting, contrary to standard practice, that could indicate that he backed off the case for political reasons. That is the implication of your comment.

The problem is, after 2001, there are no political reasons. He wasn't planning to run for re-election; he wasn't even planning to practice law. Sandusky, while still seen as a pillar of the community, was not Paterno's heir apparent after 1999.
 
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