IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

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Some other hints of the rift is the service planned for Elizabeth, the news had been saying a celebration of life will be held for Lyric and Elizabeth, and that was QUICKLY corrected to say for Elizabeth, and also people have been asking on the facebook page of the celebration for elizabeth if something will be held for Lyric and heather just says we'll let you know later........

this is sooo sad you guys :(
 
If the girls were coaxed into a vehicle, the purse would have been taken as well; if the purse was left behind (as I think it was? Elizabeth's?) then they were forced, probably by someone they did not know personally but who may be known to a relative.

I keep wondering if the cell phone was found next to the purse, in the purse, 10 feet away from the purse....
 
And what REALLY creeps me out is that he was Steven Staynor's brother. I wonder if that affected him psychologically, and he might never have done what he did if Steven had never been abducted/returned.

From what I have read about the Stayner family before Steven was abducted, they weren't the most functional family I've ever heard of. There was a lot of strife in the family before Steven's disappearance. Oddly enough, Steven's disappearance may have actually acted to hold the marriage together. Most crises with children such as severe chronic illnesses, disabilities, etc, tend to lead to a much higher risk of divorce. For instance, back in the late 1990s, the divorce rate amongst couples who had a child with brain cancer was close to 95%.

It is true that the siblings in such families often suffer from neglect or the crisis atmosphere generated by things like severe chronic illness or abduction.

Remember how Ed and Lois Smart were criticised for taking their other children to Disneyland when Elizabeth was missing? I thought at the time and still think that was probably one of the best things they could have done for their children. Those children needed a break from the constant focus on that one horrible incident; their need to be children and to have happy childhoods didn't magically disappear with Elizabeth. I'm so glad for them that Elizabeth was found. I think that even had she never been found, Ed and Lois had the parental chops to raise well balanced kids under such circumstances, which is more than can be said for a lot of parents.
 
Wondering if LE knew the bodies were the girls, because LE were told where they would be found, especially as the reward for tips was recently increased.
Yes, I know hunters found the girls and that probably is true , but not necessarily...
 
The sheriff's office had asked neighboring counties, including Bremer County, to search their parks and wildlife areas for the girls after they vanished last summer, Thompson said. He said that as far as he knows, Bremer County officers did search the popular hunting and fishing spot but that the bodies would have been hard for anyone to spot.
"Even the hunters, if they had gone five feet in either direction, would not have found those bodies," he said.
http://www.southwestiowanews.com/co...cle_b2bb2f02-40a0-11e2-b799-0019bb2963f4.html

I think this is the correct location ... it appears to be very secluded and definitely some distance from the road.

sevencrimescene.jpg
 
Well, that tells me that Heather and Drew have some friends whose loyalty is greater than their compassion or discretion.

I agree. They should back off and let the parents handle it. If EC's parents want to pay for their child's funeral then they may request any donations go to another organization of their choosing. EC's parents have been very gracious with the press, the public, and even the perp(s) and I imagine they would handle this situation in the same manner.

Emotions are running high...and the friends need to check themselves, imo. God knows this whole family has enough to deal with. The poor Gma, I hope she is getting the needed support as well.
JMO
 
Anyone know the statisics for a lone perp to abduct multiple victims and murder them within 24 hours? I'm not familiar with any of the cases mentioned except for the Groene case...and they were kept for a period of time. I'm sure it has probably happened, but I tend to believe it would be rather rare. Someone that brazen, unless they were acquaintances of the victims with probable trust involved is another bird altogether imo. {{{shivers}}}

I couldn't find any statistics that would directly respond to your question, but I found some statistics (I cut and pasted from different studies) that shows that 88.5% of kidnap/murder cases death occurs within 24 hrs (regardless of the # of perps)

Here's some more info if your interested....

The typical victims in the child abduction-murder cases were white girls, about 11 years old, often described as "normal kids" from middle-class neighborhoods with stable family relationships.

The typical abductors were white males, about 27 years old and unmarried. Half of them -- 51 percent -- lived either alone (17 percent) or with their parents (34 percent.) Half of them also were unemployed, and those who were employed worked in unskilled or semiskilled jobs.

Commonly, the killers had a legitimate reason to be at the site where they first contacted their child victims. Twenty-nine percent lived near the site, 19 percent were there for some normal social activity, and 18 percent either worked in the area or were there for some other business.

Most of the children abducted and murdered by strangers -- 57 percent -- were "victims of opportunity,". In nearly two-thirds of the cases, the abductions were "snatch and grab" confrontations where a killer saw an available victim and quickly assaulted and subdued her.

In only 14 percent of cases did the killer choose his victim because of some physical characteristic.

In the majority of cases -- 53 percent -- the initial contact between the victim and the killer took place within a quarter-mile of the victim's home. And in 33 percent of the cases, the first contact occurred less than 200 feet from the victim's home.

About 1 in 5 victims of nonfamily abductions (21 percent) and less than half the victims of
stereotypical kidnappings (48 percent) were abducted by multiple perpetrators.

7 percent of the stereotypical kidnapping victims were abducted by females. Perpetrators in their twenties were the main abductors of 36 percent of children who were stereotypically kidnapped.


Homes or yards were the origination point in only a minority of the abductions of all nonfamily abducted children (23 percent) and of those who were stereotypically kidnapped (19
percent) Instead, streets, parks or wooded areas, and other public areas (i.e., generally accessible spaces) were the places from which children were typically abducted.


While most of the nonfamily abducted children were moved or taken, 35 percent were detained in an isolated location for at least an hour. The majority of stereotypical kidnapping victims were detained in addition to being moved or taken.


When children were moved, the most common modes of conveyance were carrying the child, taking the child in a vehicle, and walking with the child. Most children were taken into vehicles (45 percent) or to the perpetrator’s home (28 percent). Fourteen percent of the stereotypically kidnapped children were moved more than 50 miles.


40 percent of stereotypical kidnapping victims were killed.

In 76 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction–and in 88.5 percent of the cases the child was dead within 24 hours.
 
Quite possible someone phoned in a tip as to the location of the bodies and the discovery of the bodies was attributed to hunters so as not to "out" the one who phoned in the tip. Heather has been very passionate in addressing the person who had the girls. Maybe her pleas got through to someone?
 
Lucyoso, I totally get what you are saying. And I can see that happening quite easily. That is a great new angle! And one I hadn't considered before. An accident involving maybe a prominent community member who didn't want their rep tarnished. Or a young person who just panicked...

The girls were last seen at the entrance to the Meyers Lake park. Their bikes were found at the opposite side of the lake. There have been no reports about damage to the bikes. When would they have been in an accident with a prominent community member?

Elmer & Gilbert at 12:30

Cook_Collins_two_options.jpg
 
Some other hints of the rift is the service planned for Elizabeth, the news had been saying a celebration of life will be held for Lyric and Elizabeth, and that was QUICKLY corrected to say for Elizabeth, and also people have been asking on the facebook page of the celebration for elizabeth if something will be held for Lyric and heather just says we'll let you know later........

this is sooo sad you guys :(

no telling, it could be guilt, blame, second guessing each other etc...as to how this awful event occurred
or
it could just be a parent(s) wanting to remember their child in their own way.

I could totally understand the Collins wanting to do something just for their daughter. The realization she will not be back in their own home and family has to be daunting and maybe they just want to focus on her last memory.
 
I don't remember how much I'm allowed to share as a local.... The family really came together when the girls were missing, now that they are found.. there seems to be 2 camps forming for lack of a better way to put it.

The local news put out a request for help with funeral expenses for the girls. That angered some friends of Elizabeth's mom and they stated that Heather and her husband would bury their own daughter and help wasn't needed, and that they would probably have to end up providing the services for Lyric as well because that is how it's always been. Then Lyric's parents friends started posting some stuff. I realize it's the friends.. but they are very close friends of each of the sets of parents. It just seems now the girls are found, there is nothing holding everyone together anymore.

MOO

I think every family has division and issues to an extent, whether they admit it or are even aware of it. I know mine does. Obviously, these are latent in most families until a crisis arises. I think everyone is coping the best they can and there are bound to be various opinions on many things. In a situation like this, many people like to take the lead (usually thinking they are helping or motivated by how they need to process the grief) and it can be upsetting to others who are trying to do the same thing in different ways. Everyone means well, but all people cope differently and there will always be communication issues. Even in a natural, elderly, old-age death you see family members who want things to go different ways. That is life. I think we need to understand the family is entitled to grieve however they deem fit without our value judgements. They can only do what is best for themselves. Perhaps, we can all walk in their shoes and while we think we know how we "would" handle the situation, it usually is handled far differently then we "think" we would.
 
Ollipop, a verified local with family connections to the families, said that he had been told that their clothes were found with the bodies. I think the combination of location, physical size of the bodies that were found and the clothes made it close to 100% that these are Elizabeth and Lyric.

Whatever testing they are doing (dental records or DNA) is just closing that infinitesimally small gap to 100%. Which has been typical of this investigation from the very beginning. On Monday 16 July, Abben said that LE was close to 100% certain that the girls were not in Meyer's Lake but that the lake would be drained anyway just to be absolutely sure.

That's just the way this department rolls. They're careful and they go the extra mile to make sure there are no doubts remaining wherever they can.

This department seems to me to be doing a great investigation. If this is a solve-able crime, I am certain they will do it.

"LIEBERMAN: Yes. It`s heart-breaking when you read that quote from the family.

A couple of things that we know. I`m told by police sources that they were able to make an eyeball identification, meaning looking at the bodies and knowing in their heads that it was these two girls, very, very quickly. I`m told is that it didn`t appear that the bodies had been out exposed to the elements for the four or five months since they went missing. That`s No. 1.

I`m also told that there was some articles of clothing belonging to these two girls found at that scene, as well. And also we did some researching, and there are 18 registered sex offenders within ten miles of this 125-acre camping area. So that is something that law enforcement is looking at, as well."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html
 
Thanks GrainneDhu. Do you think its possible they have been there since around the time they disappeared? I'm hoping. But with the way things are being described/reported in the news (i know...not the best source) it sounds like they were somewhat intact.

I think they were probably left there within 3 hours of being abducted.

They could well have been somewhat intact. It's a wooded area with heavy brush cover, which tends to keep ground temperatures cool. The trees would have kept larger scavenger birds such as vultures away because such birds don't like to get caught under cover. If I'm right that it is fox territory rather than coyote territory, that means there would be no large mammalian scavengers, either.

If the perp made a minimal attempt to cover the bodies such as pulling some weeds to throw over the bodies, that can significantly delay decomposition.

A doe was hit by car a couple years ago and made it into my windbreak before dying. I was fascinated after my dogs alerted me to "something interesting over there, Mama!" so I went out there every day for awhile to watch what happened. The last time I checked was about a year ago; her skeleton was still there and most of the hide on the ground side of her body. The hide on the upward parts of her body was pretty shredded but the hair colour was still intact. I could see, for instance, the way her coat shaded from darker on the spine to sort of a cream white on her belly.

So, it seems very possible to me that the bodies still had tissue on them in some areas. Mummification isn't common in Iowa due to the humidity levels in the summer but even without mummification, a significant amount of a body can be seen after many months.
 
I think this is the correct location ... it appears to be very secluded and definitely some distance from the road.

sevencrimescene.jpg

Looking at that photo again makes me really think the perp or perps didn't walk the girls in there (whether the girls were dead or alive at the time). Maybe he/they paddled them in. The area with the police tape has a small beach area and the water line could have been closer to where those white sheets(?) are located in this photo. JMO

50c0e6e13345b.preview-620.jpg


http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_bf44da9c-4092-11e2-86a8-001a4bcf887a.html
 
Otto, I addressed the "no bike damage" a few posts back. I stated that had there been bike damage, we probably would have heard about it. But a bike accident isn't the only kind of accident that could have occurred.
 
Given the source of the info, I'm not expecting it to be borne out by LE.

I think that yes, the girls were visually identified at the scene but I believe it was a combination of the size of the bodies, the location and the clothing found that enabled the identification. That's consistent with what Ollipop, a verified local who is related by marriage to the families, posted.

I'm saying I'll believe Ollipop over some reporter who flew in for their TV show.

If Ollipop claims some clothing were found ... which you mentioned upthread ... and it is also reported by the talking heads ... is it true or not true?

Additionally, we first heard that Jessica Ridgeway had been dismembered on NG, and it was quite true. Isn't it possible that a visual identification of the bodies was made because the children were recognized? That wouldn't be true if they were in that locataion for 5 months. Clothing would not be sufficient to identify the children.
 
Last I looked there are 19 RSO's in Bremer.

So it's county land they were found on per Beacon. Bremer County Conservation Bd deed holder.
 
Some other hints of the rift is the service planned for Elizabeth, the news had been saying a celebration of life will be held for Lyric and Elizabeth, and that was QUICKLY corrected to say for Elizabeth, and also people have been asking on the facebook page of the celebration for elizabeth if something will be held for Lyric and heather just says we'll let you know later........

this is sooo sad you guys :(

Not that this holds any truth for these families, but I've been to a funeral of a murdered teen who had been "raised" primarily by his aunt because the mother was on and off the streets addicted to drugs. Although she had been clean for a few months when he passed, she was "capatilizing" on the sympathy and such that she was being given and the financial offers from people. The sister that raised him, was appalled and in a lot of ways hurt by her audacity to "put on a show" and milking the attention, but never cared enough to stay sober and raise him. Not that she shouldn't grieve the loss of her child but she often wondered if it would have been the same if his case hadn't been "public".

I think drug addiction can cause a huge riff with families
 
"LIEBERMAN: Yes. It`s heart-breaking when you read that quote from the family.

A couple of things that we know. I`m told by police sources that they were able to make an eyeball identification, meaning looking at the bodies and knowing in their heads that it was these two girls, very, very quickly. I`m told is that it didn`t appear that the bodies had been out exposed to the elements for the four or five months since they went missing. That`s No. 1.

I`m also told that there was some articles of clothing belonging to these two girls found at that scene, as well. And also we did some researching, and there are 18 registered sex offenders within ten miles of this 125-acre camping area. So that is something that law enforcement is looking at, as well."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

This is JMO, but I need more than Lieberman to believe that the girls were instantly identifiable due to other than clothing and/or size of bodies.
 
I don't mean to be insensitive because I know just thinking about the deaths of the girls is extremely hard on a lot of people, so I apologize if I come across that way. It sounds like there was some decomposition, or they would most likely have just had the parents identify them. At the same time, it doesn't sound like they were entirely decomposed or they'd more likely have said remains rather than bodies.

It was considered (I believe by a reporter) that the bodies may have been frozen until recently, and brought there recently for some reason. I wonder if they had been kept in a large freezer normally used for venison, etc. They may not have been removed to make room for meat from hunting, but hunting season may have been a time to be in an out of the way place without looking suspicious. Perhaps the person who did it was out there early in the season, or even before the season with an ATV to "set up a blind" using materials which also covered the bodies on it in case he was seen. He could have brought the bodies out there, left, and actually hunted somewhere else. Or maybe not.

This is the only reference I have seen to "frozen":

"VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, I got chills when Jon just said that these bodies had been kept somewhere, and then when they were put there in this wildlife park, they were easily identifiable. I mean, it`s horrifying to think that they were kept in some -- it implies that they were possibly kept in some kind of refrigeration or something that preserved them."
 
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