IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

Ros said:

I think that it is odd that no charges were ever filed on ZO and that CR does not remember what happened before or after he was punched (although that can happen with a genuine concussion). He was not hit hard enough to be knocked out, since he left with LS soon afterward. Makes me think that someone did not want the witnesses testifying about the event in court; they might not all give the same story.

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Who needs the hassle of pressing charges and court, when you can turn someone into a convicted felon with a single anonymous post on the internet?

mfunky said:

AGREED! While I definitely believe CR and JR are aware of what happened that night, I feel like people are focusing on them (as they should), but not focusing enough on MB.

I also find it interesting that DR and MB have the same attorney, and the attorney let DR speak to LS's parents/PI/take an administered polygraph, but didn't have MB do that.... While I know it doesn't mean anyone is guilty/not guilty, it's definitely interesting, and to me it speaks volumes that the SAME attorney (who DEFINITELY knows what he's doing) has two different approaches for the SAME case.

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That's an interesting point about the lawyer's treatment of DR and MB. Considering the DR wasn't with her when something probably went down, it makes sense that he wouldn't have as much to consider in the case.

imkeylime said:

That's an interesting point about the lawyer's treatment of DR and MB. Considering the DR wasn't with her when something probably went down, it makes sense that he wouldn't have as much to consider in the case.

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Right - lawyers aren't usually opposed to all cooperation with police, only the aspects that their clients risk incriminating themselves with. I don't think DR had to worry about taking an LE polygraph... I guess MB does.

On an unrelated note -- Does anyone know why Tony Gatto became involved in Lauren's case? Was he working for or affiliated with a person or company, or working as an independent journalist?

Wait, is he even a journalist? He appears to have a news blog, and I know he worked in news (I think he was the general manager of a radio station or network in NY?) but I don't see any other cases that he has investigated or written about... Just wondering why this case was of particular interest.

Looking back at his blog, I also have a couple of questions about his posts and sources. I'm not sure if he still checks in here or would be willing to answer. I know he has since moved on, but since his blog had a lot to do with shaping the information about this case, it would be useful to clear a few things up...

doubtingthomas said:

Need a clarification. Did the altercation between CR and ZO happen outside of LS room? I know it was stated outside the elevator doors but how close to her room. If it was outside her room, were there anyone still in the room? If so, how could they not here all the commotion? Would they not have opened the door to see what was going on? I was also thinking about the statement HT made about LS went a little to far this time. I'm sure JR told her he saw her leave and round the corner. Is this the kind of statement you would make if you thought a possible abduction happened? Makes me think she knows what happened.

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I don't know if anyone still has the link to the video where HT says this, but I remember her following this up by talking about how she did think it was a random abduction. I think it's possible she chose some unfortunate words that have taken on a different meaning because of some of the theories that people have about the case. Then again, I guess it's possible she does know more and this slipped out... It's hard to tell.

Either way, she's probably one of the people with the most insight about what happened that night. (I really don't think she was involved in anything directly though). I always thought it was too bad that people were so harsh about her interviews because she was the only person in that group who was actually coming forward with information and speaking openly to the media. In a short interview with a reporter a few weeks after Lauren went missing, she seemed unsure of what happened, and said she didn't know what to think about the fact that some of the POI weren't talking to her, even though she still thought it was probably an abduction. I would love to know what she thinks now.

AbbeyR said:

Right - lawyers aren't usually opposed to all cooperation with police, only the aspects that their clients risk incriminating themselves with. I don't think DR had to worry about taking an LE polygraph... I guess MB does.

On an unrelated note -- Does anyone know why Tony Gatto became involved in Lauren's case? Was he working for or affiliated with a person or company, or working as an independent journalist?

Wait, is he even a journalist? He appears to have a news blog, and I know he worked in news (I think he was the general manager of a radio station or network in NY?) but I don't see any other cases that he has investigated or written about... Just wondering why this case was of particular interest.

Looking back at his blog, I also have a couple of questions about his posts and sources. I'm not sure if he still checks in here or would be willing to answer. I know he has since moved on, but since his blog had a lot to do with shaping the information about this case, it would be useful to clear a few things up...

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awesome questions AbbeyR

AbbeyR said:

I don't know if anyone still has the link to the video where HT says this, but I remember her following this up by talking about how she did think it was a random abduction. I think it's possible she chose some unfortunate words that have taken on a different meaning because of some of the theories that people have about the case. Then again, I guess it's possible she does know more and this slipped out... It's hard to tell.

Either way, she's probably one of the people with the most insight about what happened that night. (I really don't think she was involved in anything directly though). I always thought it was too bad that people were so harsh about her interviews because she was the only person in that group who was actually coming forward with information and speaking openly to the media. In a short interview with a reporter a few weeks after Lauren went missing, she seemed unsure of what happened, and said she didn't know what to think about the fact that some of the POI weren't talking to her, even though she still thought it was probably an abduction. I would love to know what she thinks now.

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She may know somehow that Lauren did leave JRs, and then somehow knows that the key players didn't abduct Lauren or hide her. She has never really said where she was all this time; Maybe the mystery guy who watched the game at HT 's apt was watching it with others and not HT. don't trust HT.

AbbeyR said:

I don't know if anyone still has the link to the video where HT says this, but I remember her following this up by talking about how she did think it was a random abduction. I think it's possible she chose some unfortunate words that have taken on a different meaning because of some of the theories that people have about the case. Then again, I guess it's possible she does know more and this slipped out... It's hard to tell. Either way, she's probably one of the people with the most insight about what happened that night. (I really don't think she was involved in anything directly though). I always thought it was too bad that people were so harsh about her interviews because she was the only person in that group who was actually coming forward with information and speaking openly to the media. In a short interview with a reporter a few weeks after Lauren went missing, she seemed unsure of what happened, and said she didn't know what to think about the fact that some of the POI weren't talking to her, even though she still thought it was probably an abduction. I would love to know what she thinks now.

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BBM Abbey, again, you make a presumption. I in no way base my thoughts of an abduction on what HT had to say.
Do you really, honestly think the police are ruling out a random abduction? If you think that, than I am going to have to say that it's unfortunate on your part that you can only see within that circle of the last people who saw her.
If these POIs didn't do it, then someone else did. It's that simple. And I guarantee you LE doesn't think a live abduction is "cray-cray" to use your expression.
I have said many times it could also be not-so-random, in otherwords, I don't believe she expired from drugs and then her friends hid her body. That doesn't mean someone in this large circle, or on the edge of the circle, or even on the outside looking in, didn't abduct her.

@Ixchel,

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I was responding to DoubtingThomas, pointing out that HT did think it was a possible abduction. The unfortunate choice of words was that people assume (I think) she was talking about an OD or something else where the POI were involved. I don't think she was.

doubtingthomas said:

I was also thinking about the statement HT made about LS went a little to far this time. I'm sure JR told her he saw her leave and round the corner. Is this the kind of statement you would make if you thought a possible abduction happened? Makes me think she knows what happened.

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Also, I did not say any theory of this case was 'cray cray'. Only one post But, you're right, I don't think it was a random abduction, and neither LE or the Spierers have given any indication that they do. If anything, the Spierers have been totally clear that they believe it was not a random abduction.

Lauren Spierer's Parents Tell Katie Couric: It Wasn't A Random Abduction

According to ABC News, police said only one of Lauren's friends voluntarily came forward to share information in the investigation.

Robert Spierer, Lauren's father, said he's "frustrated and angry" with their daughter's male friends, who were the last to be seen with Lauren on June 3, 2011 -- the night she disappeared. "Despite their claims of doing whatever they could do," Robert said, "the fact of the matter is they refused to meet with us except for one of the boys."

"I truly don't think it was a random abduction," Charlene Spierer, Lauren's mother, said in her interview with Couric. "I think that somebody that Lauren knew was responsible for the events of that evening.”

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AbbeyR said:

@Ixchel,

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I was responding to DoubtingThomas, pointing out that HT did think it was a possible abduction. The unfortunate choice of words was that people assume (I think) she was talking about an OD or something else where the POI were involved. I don't think she was.



Also, I did not say any theory of this case was 'cray cray'. Only one post But, you're right, I don't think it was a random abduction, and neither LE or the Spierers have given any indication that they do. If anything, the Spierers have been totally clear that they believe it was not a random abduction.

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OK AbbeyR, the last thing I want is to be banned for arguing. When you said I was "cray-cray", it was because I went into a sappy thing about all my life
wanting to live in Bloomington, etc.
Let's go OT and discuss Bloomington. One of the bombers of the World Trade Center was born here while his parents were going to grad school.Serendipity. Bill and Emily Harris, who kidnapped Patty Hearst, graduated from here and Emily Harris was an elementary school teacher here.
Serendipity? Marc Cuban, billionaire, went to school here. The SDS, or Students for a Democratic Society, began here. The Underground Weathermen, another radical group, had a most important
headquarters here. In the late 60s/early 70s, Bloomington was the main Hub
to get thousands and thousands of sheets of blotter acid to sale.
How many people know about Cyclotron, possibly misspelled, but it's a nuclear facility that gets millions upon millions of funding per year and is on campus?
Yet the entire campus practically is run by coal. Coal? How can that be? But it's true. Not that it has anything to do with this case, but just showing the anachromatic things we are dealing with. No one knew they had the
bubonic plague stored here until someone stole it from a top secret
laboratory on campus here a few years ago! Now the bubonic plague could be replicating at will but we don't know where. OOps, Bloomington!
All that aside, what I really want to get across is that anything, and I mean anything, could happen here.

10pm EST tonight Lifetime Women channel running repeat episode of Vanished w B Holloway..Lauren
Episode..fyi

AbbeyR said:

I don't know if anyone still has the link to the video where HT says this, but I remember her following this up by talking about how she did think it was a random abduction. I think it's possible she chose some unfortunate words that have taken on a different meaning because of some of the theories that people have about the case. Then again, I guess it's possible she does know more and this slipped out... It's hard to tell.

Either way, she's probably one of the people with the most insight about what happened that night. (I really don't think she was involved in anything directly though). I always thought it was too bad that people were so harsh about her interviews because she was the only person in that group who was actually coming forward with information and speaking openly to the media. In a short interview with a reporter a few weeks after Lauren went missing, she seemed unsure of what happened, and said she didn't know what to think about the fact that some of the POI weren't talking to her, even though she still thought it was probably an abduction. I would love to know what she thinks now.

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I definitely agree with you. I don't believe HT was involved, but I do think people are taking the inch she provided in her interviews and turning it into a mile.

HT was good friends with both JR and LS.....I can't imagine making sense of one of my BFFs/roomies going missing, and having another good friend be a POI. There's a good chance she was probably in denial, and not wanting to believe JR could be involved, hence her thoughts on a random abduction....not wanting to believe he could be involved, so believing him.

I too would definitely be interested in knowing what her thoughts are now. Just saying- a really good way to keep LS's story out there would be to have her friends/roommates (yes, I'm referring to non- POIs) interviewed on either TV or for a newspaper/magazine. Its almost been 2 years since they were all interviewed from various reporters/stations to generate attention to the case- a lot has changed, the reality of the situation has long set in, and LS would be graduating from IU this spring. It would be really interesting to hear if HT and JR remained good friends after returning to IU in fall 2011, or if he avoided her, or she came around and ended up avoiding him.

Ixchel13 said:

Now the bubonic plague could be replicating at will but we don't know where. Oops, Bloomington!

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Most or all of the Yersinia pestis used in the biology labs at IU has been modified so that it cannot cause plague. I don't think its presence on campus is or was a secret. They use it in the microbiology lab classes.

Also, the cyclotron is a research facility, not an energy-generating nuclear reactor. Considering the amount of coal in southern Indiana, it is not surprising that IU runs on coal. A nuclear power plant was left unfinished in southern Indiana (Marble Hill), partly because of the amount of opposition this project received after the Three Mile Island incident.

Finally, in a town the size of Bloomington with a university the size of IU, you would expect to find some people who are at the extreme ends of just about any human spectrum. I think the SDS started in New York but eventually reached Bloomington.

Ros said:

Most or all of the Yersinia pestis used in the biology labs at IU has been modified so that it cannot cause plague. I don't think its presence on campus is or was a secret. They use it in the microbiology lab classes.

Also, the cyclotron is a research facility, not an energy-generating nuclear reactor. Considering the amount of coal in southern Indiana, it is not surprising that IU runs on coal. A nuclear power plant was left unfinished in southern Indiana (Marble Hill), partly because of the amount of opposition this project received after the Three Mile Island incident.

Finally, in a town the size of Bloomington with a university the size of IU, you would expect to find some people who are at the extreme ends of just about any human spectrum. I think the SDS started in New York but eventually reached Bloomington.

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seriously? you really think I was suggesting that we use nuclear power to
run the campus? The sign in front of it states "Nuclear Research Facility."
I was alluding that if they can spend millions researching nuclear power, why can't they spend some of that $$ on clean energy? The coal plant causes lots of pollution and illnesses.And you are wrong about the bubonic plague scandal. This was not the watered down germ and people here were "mostly" unaware of its existence in a high security, always under lock and key lab until it was stolen from this secured lab, not a biology classroom; and this was reported on the front page of our newspaper, causing quite a sensation.
Let's not argue about Bloomington. They should not be running the university on coal, so what?
BBM you expect to find those extreme ends of the human spectrum here,
and your expectations are rarely disappointed. This is what I was saying.
And for its size and the university, I still think the ratio of unpredictability
is unbalanced. Little jerks sometimes tell the truth even when they seem like they should be lying.

Thanks for correcting my misunderstandings.

Okay, I have a bunch of observations about Gatto's blog after re-reading it, but I'll start with one.

Most of the posts about Lauren's case were just summaries of other articles that had already been published. As far as I can tell, there are 3 pieces of 'insider' info that Gatto revealed about the case:

1) The witness/ "Mystery Man":

TonyGatto.com has spoken to the witness who says she saw an extremely inebriated Lauren Spierer with the man at 3:38 a.m on Friday, June 3 at the corner of 10th St. and College Ave. in downtown Bloomington. At one point the man slung Lauren over his shoulder. Police have not acknowledged the incident. According to the witness, who works as a manager at a local bar, Lauren Speirer was incoherent, her eyes nearly closed and at one point she fell and banged her head.The witness describes the mystery man as dark-skinned, about 5 feet, nine inches, 160 pounds, defined facial bone-structure and pointed, thin, rounded sideburns. She says he was wearing a polo-style shirt.

The witness has viewed a photo of Corey Rossman, the Indiana University student who was with Spierer at Kilroy’s Sports Bar and at both their apartments that night, and she says she does not believe Rossman is the man who she saw with Spierer that night.

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http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

2) Lauren was by herself at Kilroys and kicked out

A person close to the case says Spierer was in a “stupor” and that she “was pouring her heart out” about being drunk and high on Cocaine and Xanax. This same person says Spierer was at Kilroy’s Sports for at least 45 minutes alone, not with her friend Corey Rossman. News reports to this point had placed Rossman with Spierer at the bar, but sources who were at Kilroy’s Sports at that time say they never saw Rossman. This source says Spierer was ejected simply because of the state she was in.

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http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

3) Corey was attacked at Smallwood, and he ran out by himself. Lauren followed. (this was here, not on his blog)

I am hearing that it wasn't actually an "altercation" and that CR "bolted" as soon as he sees these guys. Not sure exactly when he takes the punch. ...And "altercation" is the wrong word. It seems like it was a one-sided attack. My feeling is that CR ran out of the building and toward home, perhaps with LS following behind. Our vision of them leaving the building should not be two people walking normally shoulder to shoulder. And yes --11 minutes later she is in the alley on video with a man, perhaps CR...
[another post:] I think CR exited the building and quickly made his way north. Clearly LS followed. But she was not able to keep up. She's slow to move but wants to follow CR to where she know he is going, 5 North, where she knows, she too, is welcome. Due to her condition it takes her 11 minutes to leave the building and orient herself, thus reaching the alley at 2:51. As the theory goes, she meets up with a man, not CR. She probably is with the same man at 10th and College sometime after that. He either helps her up there or she gets up to 11th St. herself. We believe she enters the building and meets up with CR/MB/JR. The theory ends there.

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So, with the benefit of hindsight -- There's no doubt that there were pieces here that were legit. He was the first to tell us about the bar manager witness, and Lauren's condition at that time. But why? The rest of it, we've since learned, was not true. We now know that mystery man = Corey Rossman. Lauren was at the bar with CR. She left the bar with CR. She left Smallwood with CR, and CR carried her, semi-conscious down the alley. CR was identified as the person the witness saw, and the last person to be seen on video with LS. But all of these reports have 'insiders' claiming Lauren and CR weren't together. Instead, Lauren is randomly talking about doing drugs by herself, and wandering around alone or with mysterious dark skinned strangers...

Anyone think Tony's anonymous source might have been... oh... someone connected to CR?

I have a feeling Tony's blog was pretty reliant on the PT defense team -- "Ray" and others, who were getting the stories of the POI out to the public, and that this led him down the road to certain theories, like the ZO/ AB scenario. (I'll do that one next)

MOO

AbbeyR said:

Okay, I have a bunch of observations about Gatto's blog after re-reading it, but I'll start with one.

Most of the posts about Lauren's case were just summaries of other articles that had already been published. As far as I can tell, there are 3 pieces of 'insider' info that Gatto revealed about the case:

1) The witness/ "Mystery Man":


http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

2) Lauren was by herself at Kilroys and kicked out



http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

3) Corey was attacked at Smallwood, and he ran out by himself. Lauren followed. (this was here, not on his blog)




So, with the benefit of hindsight -- There's no doubt that there were pieces here that were legit. He was the first to tell us about the bar manager witness, and Lauren's condition at that time. But why? The rest of it, we've since learned, was not true. We now know that mystery man = Corey Rossman. Lauren was at the bar with CR. She left the bar with CR. She left Smallwood with CR, and CR carried her, semi-conscious down the alley. CR was identified as the person the witness saw, and the last person to be seen on video with LS. But all of these reports have 'insiders' claiming Lauren and CR weren't together. Instead, Lauren is randomly talking about doing drugs by herself, and wandering around alone or with mysterious dark skinned strangers...

Anyone think Tony's anonymous source might have been... oh... someone connected to CR?

I have a feeling Tony's blog was pretty reliant on the PT defense team -- "Ray" and others, who were getting the stories of the POI out to the public, and that this led him down the road to certain theories, like the ZO/ AB scenario. (I'll do that one next)

MOO

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Your reasoning is superb.

With all of the gang rape news lately I did some research.
It appears that group or gang rape is suddenly dramatically increasing.
What this type of rape shares with most kinds of rape is that the incidence is is very highly correlated with alcohol. But this type of rape has a much higher correlation with not only alcohol but drugs as well. 47% of cases involve both victim and perps being under the influence of one or both.

I was also thinking heavily this past week about motivators for the apparent 5N conspirators. When I considered gang rape (which I didn't want to think about) I realized it would be one of the most powerful motivators to keep mouths shut. Can you see the sentences being handed down for gang rape and covering up her death? If everyone that knew, participated, they would all be pretty much equally guilty. The prospect of spending 20 years in prison would keep their lips this tightly sealed.

Some other interesting facts about gang rape.
Like other types of rape, the victims often knew at least 1 if not all of the rapists. The victims tend to fight back more. The victims are more likely to report the rape. There are only 200,000 or so reported cases of rape annually in the USA. The real number is at least 2 Million. Unfortunately we all know that in its various forms, rape is horribly common, even so, according to the FBI, forcible rape has declined 85% in the past few decades. The peculiar thing is that gang rape has actually been increasing.
In almost 1/3 of the cases the gang rape occurred in the home of one of the perps.

Unfortunately, we can't rule out gang rape. One other thing that clicked and caused me thinking this way, was MB's lawyer saying that Lauren wanted to party more, etc... and also before I had noted this made it sound like LS was asking for it, similar to how victims of rape are treated. It occurred to me that maybe that is indeed what happened. And then the statements about LS wanting to leave but MB trying to convince her to stay the night. Turning this around from the victim's point of view in a rape scenario... I could see how MB would NOT want LS to leave. First she wants to "party", and then there are attempts to contain her. There are only so many ways I can play that scenario. Unfortunately covering up gang rape is plausible given what we know. I still think she died accidentally. But the idea that it may have involved rape, gang rape, attempted rape, attempts to restrain her, are quite infuriating.

Previously I'd really had a hard time buying these POI's as capable of such a horrific thing. But I'm past it. I'm reminded of a trip I took to Cancun a couple years ago and for fun took the MTV bar hop tour bus with my then significant other. I can't tell you some of the things we saw, but it was positively things you would never imagine is going on during "Spring Break". It totally shocked us and we were expecting to see something wild. Mardi gras flashing is lame by comparison. And mind you, these were wealthy, intelligent and attractive women from the good ole USA that I was observing. One of the more silly and unexpected things was in a bar with all neon, everything glowing, black lights. On the bar itself there were little metal holes every few feet. And on the outside of the bar counter were metal buttons. When you push the button a jet of air would blast out straight up. At first I was totally naive thinking why would you have something like that? But then... girls in the bar(not paid dancers) got up on the counter not wearing underwear under their skirts and guys started pushing the buttons. crew came out with unlimited shots for everyone. Ok, I've never brought myself to watch "girls gone wild" videos, but having seen this stuff first hand, I'm sure what I've seen in real life tops that. The contests I saw...I can't even type... My point here is that maybe these POI's (And I have no idea about LS, and certainly not implying anything there) had been to such places and/or had such a mindset. The fact is when people are so intoxicated on alcohol and drugs, inhibitions are dramatically lowered. (2% of gang rapes actually occur in bars.)

CR and MB both submitted DNA samples.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-indiana-student-dna-collected-men-allegedly/story?id=13819375

They could have refused to do so until ordered to do so by a judge, but they (probably with legal advice) cooperated. So if they participated in a gang rape, they must have been very sure that her body would not be found.

By the way, we know that the police took computer equipment from Smallwood. What about the computers at 5N? It seems that the LE computer forensic experts would have checked to see if any of them had been used to look up "how to dispose of a body" or "how long does forensic evidence persist."

Still on my list of Tony Gatto questions (I sent him a message to ask him personally, but he hasn't responded yet).

- In the post I quoted above, who does "we" refer to? (last sentence: We believe she enters the building...)

- Tony mentioned that both the bar manager witness and the Kilroy's witness stopped talking to him because "someone got to them". Who does he think 'got to them' and why?

- In previous posts here, it seems Tony's not very confident about his sources and thinks some of the info may be incorrect. Why were no corrections on the blog published?

- Finally, he mentions that he feels the bar manager witness is the most reliable because "[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6805985&postcount=218"]this is the one witness who actually spoke to me[/ame] -- I give her details more credence." Where did the other sources come from then? Emails? Anonymous posts? What was Tony's criteria for judging or verifying reliable sources?

I hope I don't come across as picking on TG -- I'm just curious about how some of this info came about. After all, here we are almost two years later, and there are still a lot of people out there who think that someone who has never even been named in the case is a POI because they were named on his blog and match a description of a 'mystery man' that seems, at least, to have been discredited by both LE and the Private Investigators hired by the Spierers.

As someone with a strong background in news, I would think he'd be prepared to answer these kinds of questions. Or, if the information or his theories have changed, I wish he would revisit it with us!

AbbeyR said:

Still on my list of Tony Gatto questions (I sent him a message to ask him personally, but he hasn't responded yet).

- In the post I quoted above, who does "we" refer to? (last sentence: We believe she enters the building...)

- Tony mentioned that both the bar manager witness and the Kilroy's witness stopped talking to him because "someone got to them". Who does he think 'got to them' and why?

- In previous posts here, it seems Tony's not very confident about his sources and thinks some of the info may be incorrect. Why were no corrections on the blog published?

- Finally, he mentions that he feels the bar manager witness is the most reliable because "this is the one witness who actually spoke to me -- I give her details more credence." Where did the other sources come from then? Emails? Anonymous posts? What was Tony's criteria for judging or verifying reliable sources?

I hope I don't come across as picking on TG -- I'm just curious about how some of this info came about. After all, here we are almost two years later, and there are still a lot of people out there who think that someone who has never even been named in the case is a POI because they were named on his blog and match a description of a 'mystery man' that seems, at least, to have been discredited by both LE and the Private Investigators hired by the Spierers.

As someone with a strong background in news, I would think he'd be prepared to answer these kinds of questions. Or, if the information or his theories have changed, I wish he would revisit it with us!

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Kilroys closed down for remodelling right after Tony G. got those employees to talk.....