The simple answer would be he didn't want to come unannounced at 3:30AM. I'd think that would be the common thing to do. You check to see if they are awake and answering their phone... give them time to get dressed and open the door... make sure they aren't otherwise 'occupied' at the moment... etc...
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29
- Thread starter bessie
- Start date
- Status
The simple answer would be he didn't want to come unannounced at 3:30AM. I'd think that would be the common thing to do. You check to see if they are awake and answering their phone... give them time to get dressed and open the door... make sure they aren't otherwise 'occupied' at the moment... etc...
I don't think that rumor was legit. The poster says that it was her picture and her name, but misspelled. The articles about the fines to Kilroy's sounded like she had borrowed someone else's ID. http://www.wthr.com/story/15472603/excise-police-cite-kilroys-in-spierer-case
There were definitely some articles that mixed up JR and CR.
But the articles about MB were quoting witnesses who knew them: Two neighbors and a friend. I think those are more likely to be accurate.
I'm not going to assume every article got the details right, but I find it hard to very believe that reporters and MB's lawyer and witnesses are responsible for all of these discrepancies in MB's stories. The only thing people wanted to know was when he last saw Lauren. It really shouldn't have been that difficult to get a clear answer.
In either case, if she had a fake ID with her at JRs, how did it come to be used as evidence against Kilroy's?
AFAIK it's never been said in this case ....But generically speaking these two things are not in doubt:
#1 She was under 21
#2 She entered Kilroy's and apparently was served alcohol
So....
THAT is enough to fine the establishment with no actual fake ID needed. Perhaps Kilroy's volunteered she had a fake ID hoping to at least mitigate PR damages. Maybe video exists of her being ID'ed to back up that she was indeed checked.
The fake ID itself really isn't even important at that point because clearly she entered a bar, and apparently was served underage. Misread ID... fake ID... ID not checked... Doesn't matter.
But it does seem like there was some talk that she didn't match the description on her fake ID. That could be explained by someone fessing up they provided the ID that LS was known to be using. A girlfriend, cousin, friend of a friend, sister... I don't know. And once LE knew what ID she was normally using as a fake ID then they could've gotten a duplicate from the issuing state. This would've been more important to know as part of the missing person case just to see if this ID popped up somewhere, being used, at a traffic stop, etc...
IOW, it really wasn't that important to have the original ID she presented to make a case against Kilroy's. Kilroy's could even fruitlessly argue that the ID LE says she used was not the one they checked... It wouldn't matter. There'd still be no doubt she got in the bar underage. Quality of the fake ID is not a real defense.
Of course that is how it could've happened... Apparently there's no official word on how it did happen.
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,899
Yes, that is public knowledge. But "living next door" is a bit of a misnomer. In order to get from CR/MB's one would have to go down stairs, out a door then back in another door and then back up another set up stairs. At least this is my understanding from numerous conversations on the details of 5N. Even though it's "next door" it takes some effort to get there. Yet, I agree that I still would not see the need to "call" given the spin where LS is painted as being in good shape. You would just as likely "wake" JR by calling as by knocking on the door. And since MB supposedly walked her over there... even less reason to call.
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,899
I understood you. Thanks for the details about how LS's communications to JW should appear. My point was that you could see from phone records when and how LS and JW stopped communicating. And then yes you could track him - maybe... if he had it... but where would he go? If LS said she was staying home and he wanted to "check on her" then logically shouldn't he start with SW? And if he that he would have been on CAMERA. Then if someone tipped him off about CR, seems to me it would most likely go through his phone. But then where would JW go looking in such a circumstance? Seems unlikely to me that he would be hiding over on 11th or N. College... hiding waiting to pounce. Because 1) He could not know what path she might take, or even be sure of her whereabouts. 2) He also would have managed to evade all cameras in the area 3) The risk that she might be with someone and he would be seen which would be problematic. 4) he would have been acting with a level of premeditation and this would become a 1st degree murder case. What would he have done with her while in the open when there very likely could have or would have been witnesses or even LE or cameras capturing it?
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,899
the "Significance" would be EVIDENCE. If LE had such EVIDENCE that JW was tipped off, seems to me that would move him from the "cleared" list to the top "suspect" list. (essentially - MOTIVE)
Thank you! I've been thinking that for awhile too. While I agree JW and random abduction should be considered, IMO, for JW to have motive, JW would need to be aware of LS' whereabouts and/or the rumored rocky patch in their relationship would need to be true. I do not think that motive is a given for JW without speculating at least that their relationship always had some kind of element of abuse/controlling nature to it and/or at the current moment JW and LS were experiencing a rough patch and/or JW believed LS had feelings for CR. For JW to be lurking around 5N, someone would need to alert earlier and JW would need to be patient enough to wait around. During this time, JW would not have calmed down or had a change of heart about confronting LS right then and there. This would be kind of weird too -- if he was upset LS lied to him and was out with another dude, it seems more plausible that, if that angry, he would have stormed CR's place to confront the both of them. I mean, that's what JW and his dad did the next day, right? It just seems like that would be the more natural response for a hot headed dude, especially if he does exactly that the next day.
Question for anyone familiar with controlling relationships: Are the bfs more likely to confront a dude encroaching on their "territory" or would they lurk around to confront their girlfriend after the fact, possibly for hours? It would be my own guess that, in the heat of the moment, confronting both CR & LS and taking LS back with him would be the more "controlling" bf type of thing to do. I just don't see the controlling bf as waiting around, unless, as VeryVeritas has pointed out, the situation has turned from a controlling relationship to premeditated murder.
For 5N, they were already there and had a hand in the night's events. It's not as hard to put them at the scene or come up with possible motives. For JW, you could have to place him there and speculate on relationship drama giving rise to motive (whether it's finding out she lied, being told she was hooking up with CR, general relationship problems, etc.). I guess LS could have gone there too if you believe JR's account that she left, but even then, you'd have to speculate that LS made it, LS did not wake up JW's roomies and was not seen by them, and that whatever confrontation between the two was quiet enough not to wake them or neighbors up. Honestly, random abduction seems more plausible, imo. At least then you just have to take JR's word for it and assume it was bad timing that at that moment LS would stumble onto the path of her abductor.
That said, I wish it was clearer why the Spierers seem to be less supportive of JW now. I'm wondering if someone did alert him
Ixchel13
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,658
- Reaction score
- 1,146
If someone was with Lauren at Kilroys and snapped cell pics of her with CR
on her phone getting cozy this could make CR seem much more guilty to the parents, and make JW really mad if they then sent the pics to him. CS says Lauren last used her phone between 12-12:30 a.m. Again, she never states that it's the last time the phone was used. If someone was messing with her by taking her phone, people have stated that it might've been a set up by mean friends,
that could have triggered her dogged sense of purpose in getting that phone back before the pics went viral.
The idea that HT and friends didn't step in to help Lauren points to this.
And when she said that Lauren went too far this time, maybe she should have said, "WE all like to party and this time one of us went too far."
Lauren couldn't defend herself without her phone: she couldn't call for help, and she couldn't refute any accusations.
If the bartender witness is not lying about the time, then a possibly wasted Lauren wanted to backtrack from JRs down to 10th and College (2 min)
because she knew the person that had her phone, or might have her phone, was there--and, they wouldn't let her in, make that, her FRIEND wouldn't even let her in.
Or, she might've left the phone at Kilroy's, but then someone at SW, or at JR's, showed her pics that had been sent from it so she wasn't sure it was at Kilroy's, but she was sure who had it. But IMO, someone had compromised her phone.
It takes a long time to get complete phone records and I believe you need a court order. Once the Spiers got the records, if they did, then the suspicions could shift to the people phoning and texting around about Lauren.
I realize that my scenarios shift all the time, that is because I am willing to
entertain any scenario someone comes up with and follow that line of reasoning to see what could have happened.
I respect the posters that cannot fathom anything except the POIs or JW being guilty. But the POIs could just be guilty of being the worst friends ever--lazy, selfish and callous. The rumors of how messed up on drugs Lauren was came from Kilroys, started there, from people who had a lot to lose if she turned up deceased. We have not seen the videos! Because we want to believe we continually exaggerate how inebriated/high she was and then from there, we assert she couldn't possibly have left when we don't have any proof of that really.
All these self-centered, self-indulgent POIs and friends, including her roommates, could have been each in their own way contributing to the end result of Lauren being alone on a really sketchycorner at just the wrong time when someone evil who had been out at the bars, or in the sex shops a block from JR's, or working at any of these places, drove by. People think it is almost an impossibility when really, if she could leave JR's, it's very possible that someone snatched her right off the street.
During the day, the area is a business area. But just like in Mickey's case, the area becomes unsafe at night. These kids just assume it's safe, but they are never safe in that area at night if they are alone.
I am going to try to discuss this with LE, not Lauren's case specifically because they might not comment, but just in general the safety of that area and get back to everyone on that.
elmomom
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
- Messages
- 3,491
- Reaction score
- 8,117
LE has never once publicly put JW on any "cleared list" that I am aware of. If you have a link that says otherwise, please post it.
No stairs between apartments. They're multi-floor units but the front doors are on the ground floor even with the sidewalk. Door to door is probably five paces.
J..R. Said LS as carrying Fake ID When she arrived at his apt. I consider that a pretty big inconsistanty. Kilroys may have been able to be cited for serving a minor based on video but the statements made about being cited because of the obvious discrepancies in physical characteristics lead me to believe that LE has possession of the ID.
Here are some floorplans for 5N: http://currydevelopment.com/5north/5north_floorplans.html
It looks as though all of them have living/kitchen areas on the first floor with bedrooms upstairs.
So, it wouldn't have been that much of a feat for LS to have gone from one apt to the other, if she were only in the downstairs areas.
Also, with the bedrooms upstairs, I would think they would be fairly secluded from what was going on in the living areas. So, theoretically, JR could have had oot guests upstairs who never knew what was going on below them.
It looks as though all of them have living/kitchen areas on the first floor with bedrooms upstairs.
So, it wouldn't have been that much of a feat for LS to have gone from one apt to the other, if she were only in the downstairs areas.
Also, with the bedrooms upstairs, I would think they would be fairly secluded from what was going on in the living areas. So, theoretically, JR could have had oot guests upstairs who never knew what was going on below them.
I agree except we don't know if LE has the original or if they were simply able to obtain a copy of it from the issuing state.
Aren't fake ID's usually produced by counterfeiters rather than issued by states? IMHO, either LE has the fake ID or Kilroy's kept an image. If Kilroy's kept an image, then the ID could still be out there somewhere with Lauren. However, if LE has the actual ID, then she lost it before or after she went to 5N. If she lost it before, then JR is not being truthful about seeing it when she was at his apt. If JR is telling the truth, then it was lost after she left and the location and circumstances under which it found are significant enough that LE is keeping that information secret.
Not to my knowledge. The old fashioned way was to go to a license branch claiming you were a someone else (an older friend) and you'd get a license/ID with their vitals and your photo. Then in a few days that friend could claim they lost their ID and get a replacement. Then they'd again have a valid/current ID with their photo and you'd still have the 'fake' for clubs.
But that's gotten got harder to do over time so the other thing was just to get a friend, sister, cousin, etc to give you their ID and then they claim they lost their's and immediately get themselves a new one from the BMV. Now you have the old one. You memorize the address, vitals, and hope the photo looks close enough to pass...
Also, sometimes someone who is staying home that night just loans a friend their own valid ID for the evening.
As for the fake ID's that you can order and purchase that I assume you are probably thinking of (assuming that 'service' is still available these days) those vitals would all match. Those ID's would use your own photo, address, etc. They'd just insert an incorrect birthdate and fake the features of the state ID they'd be cloning.
But if she had that type of ID then the features and photo should match.
But those are expensive and it's much simpler to just get an older friend's ID. I have always assumed that's what she did. And with this being a missing person case and the nightclub figuring into the equation I can't imagine LE not trying to find out what fake ID she might have on her in case someone would be found using it or be caught with it.... a body found with that ID, etc... Since it could help in finding her (and LE would certainly drive that point home) I'd expect chances are good that someone/friend would alert LE to what ID she was using and a gf, sister, etc would admit to giving LS her ID ... If that was the case.... Then LE could obtain a copy.
So IOW... It's very possible LE could've obtained a copy of the fake ID she was known to be using.
Whether that is what happened, I don't know. But if she had a purchased counterfeit fake ID then I'd expect photo and vitals to match and LE said they didn't.
I guess there is the other possibility that she purchased one from someone who sells real ID's that they got from whatever means. But I don't know how much that 'service' really is a factor versus the friend methods I posted above.
EDIT: I just looked up an online counterfeiter and they charge 250.00 for the service. You provide photo and signature and they in turn send you two copies of the fake ID they create. This then adds to the possibility LE could've simply found the duplicate at the apartment if she was using one of these type ID's. Especially if other places also include a duplicate in the basic pkg. The place I found is called ID CHIEF if you want to look it up. But then that would mean the photo and features should've matched...
PlainJaneDoe
Verified expert in neuroscience
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,130
- Reaction score
- 29
Thinking of Lauren's dad today. :rose:
I did not turn 21 until after graduating college, so I know a little bit about using another person's ID. No judgement please! This was all in the past.
I never paid to get a fake ID from some sort of counterfeit producer... and I don't know anyone else who did either. Then again, my friends and I did not have the kind of access to money that I expect some of these kids in Lauren's circle had.
A friend's older sister gave me her old ID when she got a new one (simply because she had bent her old ID, and decided she wanted one with a new picture anyway). We would also borrow ID's from other girls who were not going out that night. Lastly, one of my acquaintances had even found a stranger's ID on the street and used it throughout her junior year of college to gain access to bars.
SO, it is possible that Lauren actually had a fake ID manufactured, but there are also many other ways to use a fake.
Perhaps one of Lauren's girlfriends had allowed her to borrow their ID, and that is how LE knew which ID Lauren used to gain access to Kilroy's? Some bars in big college towns that I am familiar with will also require the entrant to produce a second ID or credit card with the same name on it. In this case, if you were borrowing a friend's ID they would also need to allow you to borrow their credit card or student ID.
IDK. Just my experiences for what it is worth!
I hope that Rebecca and Rob can spend a nice Father's Day together, I am sure the whole family will be thinking of Lauren.
I never paid to get a fake ID from some sort of counterfeit producer... and I don't know anyone else who did either. Then again, my friends and I did not have the kind of access to money that I expect some of these kids in Lauren's circle had.
A friend's older sister gave me her old ID when she got a new one (simply because she had bent her old ID, and decided she wanted one with a new picture anyway). We would also borrow ID's from other girls who were not going out that night. Lastly, one of my acquaintances had even found a stranger's ID on the street and used it throughout her junior year of college to gain access to bars.
SO, it is possible that Lauren actually had a fake ID manufactured, but there are also many other ways to use a fake.
Perhaps one of Lauren's girlfriends had allowed her to borrow their ID, and that is how LE knew which ID Lauren used to gain access to Kilroy's? Some bars in big college towns that I am familiar with will also require the entrant to produce a second ID or credit card with the same name on it. In this case, if you were borrowing a friend's ID they would also need to allow you to borrow their credit card or student ID.
IDK. Just my experiences for what it is worth!
I hope that Rebecca and Rob can spend a nice Father's Day together, I am sure the whole family will be thinking of Lauren.
- Status