IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

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doubtingthomas said:
If CR was carring her this way he would definitely know if she was breathing. She would be breathing in his ear. I can see the scenario where she has expired while he is carring her to 5N. He puts her down by the dumpster to go get help.(hense the area the dogs last pick up her scent). MB is not home because he is at JR's. They get together to plan how they are going to handle this. Calls are made with no answers. They find someone whose car is parked out by the dumpster or across the street to take her away. Now they have time to put their stories together. CR is up pretty early for some one that has been drinking all night, got punched in the face, threw up and then went to bed. My bet would be none of them went to bed till they knew she was gone. Just my opinion.
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Bingo.

The back of 5N offers cover and it would be easy to put her in a vehicle unseen. It is not well lit, it has an overhang, cars parked along the drive that parallels the building, trees, the dumpster. I saw CR park on Morton St. and run into his apartment from there before and saw JR parked across the street in that little lot.
 
Jacobite said:
I believe that I read Zoe Camp was asleep when Lauren and Corey knocked on her door. Their visit to her place was likely discovered by LE reviewing video from a hard drive.
The video from her hallway might be pretty clear because it was likely lighted in there.
However the video from outside is mostly infrared and it won't be clear unless you are near the camera.
And, I was told that the tracking dogs lost Lauren's live scent in the area of the alley going towards Morton Street. So, it is likely that something happened there. She died. She passed out. Or, she was put in a car.
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What about if she was still alive but waning? For example, if her organs were shutting down do you know if that would be detected or is it an either/or thing?
 
In a few previous discussions we've touched upon how these kids might have a "for hire" (my words) type of guy to clean up after them. I know some of you have problems with this theory and find it unbelievable or too much "like in the movies" but consider the antics of the fraternity and how they were busted, in part, for designing some extremely fearful scenarios to haze the newbies. Someone involved in that sort of thing could be tapped for a job such as what we have here. And that someone could be a townie, or an out-of-townie, not necessarily a friend or a frat guy.
 
akh said:
The problem with that scenario is connecting why someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong would want to make themselves a part of a crime/murder/manslaughter/etc.. Not just seeing something and vowing to never speak of it, but to actually become a participant and transport the body to a hiding place?

To even allow their vehicle to be used?

Sure it's possible... but is it plausible?

It only becomes plausible IMHO if they can be connected to the crime beforehand someway. And even with that, if it was a matter of drug supplying that would still be a leap to take on a larger role in the crime rather than just leave.
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The reason the CR/MB/JR scenario has never sat right with me, is that they never seemed all that 'connected'. Why would JR involve himself? I don't buy because of drinking/drugs. And I still don't believe that if all of these people were involved, someone would not have spoken up yet. Maybe not to LE, but to someone, somehow. Drunk, high, nothing has ever slipped to someone? I, for some reason, cannot wrap my head around that. At least one of them should be suffering immense guilt and should have broken to someone. MB gave CR a pass, right? "He passed out, I put him in bed." And JR gives MB a pass, "yep, he brought her to me, in my sweatpants." Yet, Corey is the only one that didn’t speak to the PI’s. Am I making the argument for a cover-up by these three despite my objections? MB and JR basically completely absolve Corey, what could he have on them?

OTOH, JR and DB are VERY connected. Maybe it was only DB visiting, or maybe DB and his brother? I can wrap my head around that possibility and the Michigan scenario. These are lifelong friends, now business partners (although, did DB move to IL to work in real estate, the family business? is there a crack in the partnership/friendship now?). But then, I go back to the polygraph and dogs, and police interviews and PI interviews.

There is not a crack in the stories that neither the police nor the PI’s can break open? MB and JR spoke with the PI’s. JR met with her parents. That seems like a HUGE risk if you know you are guilty. Again, these are spoiled college students, not hardened criminals. And they had to know the risk thru their lawyers, that anything they said could be used in a civil trial. And apparently is being used since we know a few new details based on the complaint.

Now what about JW? In Sept. 2010, both him and LS are arrested for public intox, with JW receiving an additional disorderly conduct. JW freaks when she isn’t at home and starts the whole process in motion. He (and his dad) have an outburst at CR’s apt. There is a later outburst the next year at a football game threatening JR. There is the OUTBURST by his parents. Yet, no one has really accused him of anything, He lawyered up and got the heck out of dodge quickly, which doesn’t mesh with his outbursts. He could have known/been informed where LS was that night, and been waiting parked below. The PI statements at Lohud say JR saw her walking toward College. He could have waited until JR went in and caught up with her. Am I changing my theory?
 
try as i may, I can't find any reports anywhere that says how long it was after David Rohn took Lauren to 5n - that he left and went back to Smallwood.

Did he leave by himself or did he leave with CR and LS and split off at Smallwood?

As I said before, I'm trying to map everyone's routes and whereabouts and it would be helpful to know the specifics on DR's return to Smallwood.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Chuz Life said:
try as i may, I can't find any reports anywhere that says how long it was after David Rohn took Lauren to 5n - that he left and went back to Smallwood.

Did he leave by himself or did he leave with CR and LS and split off at Smallwood?

As I said before, I'm trying to map everyone's routes and whereabouts and it would be helpful to know the specifics on DR's return to Smallwood.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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AFAIK his latetwhereabouts have not been shared, other than he returned to Smallwood. Long time ago I heard he may have been there with HT for the rest of the night.
 
Jupiter812 said:
I was looking for some photos I took of the entrance where CR knocked on the door to the girls' apt at 10 & College but can't find them. I posted them once before. I did find my capture of this. At least it's real evidence. Really, the only thing new to discuss about this is the time stamp. I don't tweet so I don't know if time stamps are rounded off the nearest full hour, which time zone displays, etc.

34zjepx.jpg
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This is a little off the conversation in these recent posts, but does concern DB visiting that night: Does anyone else find the time of this tweet to be a little odd? It appears that times aren't rounded on tweets (thanks, Jupiter and bx2). The tweet reads 12 noon versus a more random time, say 12:03. Could it have been a prearranged time? I realize this is a stretch, but it's seldom that I send a text, for example, that reads exactly 12:00. IDK ... it just caught my eye.
 
imkeylime said:
This is a little off the conversation in these recent posts, but does concern DB visiting that night: Does anyone else find the time of this tweet to be a little odd? It appears that times aren't rounded on tweets (thanks, Jupiter and bx2). The tweet reads 12 noon versus a more random time, say 12:03. Could it have been a prearranged time? I realize this is a stretch, but it's seldom that I send a text, for example, that reads exactly 12:00. IDK ... it just caught my eye.
Click to expand...

Yes. I don't think it is a stretch at all given the context.
 
Chuz Life said:
try as i may, I can't find any reports anywhere that says how long it was after David Rohn took Lauren to 5n - that he left and went back to Smallwood.

Did he leave by himself or did he leave with CR and LS and split off at Smallwood?

As I said before, I'm trying to map everyone's routes and whereabouts and it would be helpful to know the specifics on DR's return to Smallwood.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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This report says that Rohn was back home by 12:30 am

His attorney, Ron Chapman, confirms to IM that Rohn left Smallwood with Spierer, and that surveillance footage shows Rohn returning at about 12:30 a.m., June 3, and remaining there until around 11 that morning.
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http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

This has always confused me a bit, since it was said that Lauren and DR went to JR's together, but Lauren's mom made a point of saying that Lauren last used her phone from Smallwood at 12:16 am.
 
Ixchel13 said:
But it is confusing, Abbey, especially if the video accounts are accurate because it has her coming out of the alley right at 3 a.m. or close to that, making it hard to be also hitting her head at 3:38 and the mystery man putting her over his shoulder UNLESS she did double back, and that's totally possible, because then you have a different mystery man, as the "witness" says, is not CR. That would make CR's story of being passed out at that time correct. Doubling back to 10th and College takes a mere minute, yes, one minute to turn around and return to 10th and College from 5N.
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From the very beginning, LE made it clear that there wasn't a mystery man. Here's the original response to Gatto's article on his blog:

Qualters addressed a blogger’s report of a “mysterious man” in the area of 10th and College at about 3:38 a.m. June 3. He said investigators have reviewed video evidence that does not support that either Spierer or anyone unknown to police was in that area at that time.

“What I’m here to tell you is that we have reviewed the video, not only the timeline that we have been using, ... and where Lauren does in fact appear ... she does appear in that video with someone that is already known to investigators. We have also reviewed it during the time period where it has been reported, essentially an hour later (at 3:38 a.m.), and we do not find any evidence that supports that information ,” Qualters said.

Qualters was addressing a blog post on TonyGatto.com. It says a female local bar manager reported seeing a mystery man throw an inebriated Spierer over his shoulder at 10th and College at 3:38 a.m.

While Qualters said he had not spoken to this witness, he acknowledged the witness had been interviewed by police: “We had spoken with someone.” He said investigators “do not have any video evidence that supports what had been reported by that particular witness.” Witness accounts can be off, he said.

“I can’t say that she didn’t see Lauren,” Qualters continued. “It does not appear that she saw Lauren at the time that was reported by other sources.”

Police have reviewed an estimated 300 hours of video footage, Qualters said, and there’s still more to review.
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So,
- there is a witness who saw Lauren and a man
- the man is not a 'mystery' but known to LE
- there is no video of Lauren and a man at 3:38 am.
- there is video of Lauren from that location an hour earlier

Once we know the time is wrong it totally makes sense that the man the witness saw is Corey. If there's any doubt, this is confirmed by the PIs in the Lohud video, and Gatto confirmed they were talking about the same witness account.
 
One thing I thought was interesting looking back was that Gatto 'broke the news' about the 'mystery man' on the same day that LE released a timeline of the night. This is kind of significant since this story had a huge effect on challenging the timeline and took the focus off the POI and on to a 'mysterious stranger'. Somehow, he managed to find and interview a key witness in this case, and broke the story when LE was hardly releasing any information at all.

The witness account appears again in the accounts from the PIs in the Lohud video, but it's confirmed that the man is Corey. So there are two details that stand out in Gatto's account, and that he deliberately emphasized, which are different: the description of the man as 'dark skinned' and the 3:38 time. Obviously it's possible the witness just got these things wrong -- witnesses are often bad at describing people, it was late at night, etc. But then, I wonder: Why did Gatto keep insisting on these details and how sure the witness was? Was the witness herself really certain? Did he think LE got it wrong?...

When we asked what she meant by the description of 'dark skinned', Gatto had no idea if she even meant tanned or black. He wasn't sure about the round-pointy sideburns. But, he emphasized that the person was not any of the POI and definitely not Corey Rossman. He says the witness said this, on the basis of looking at photos -- As Jupiter mentioned above, I'd be curious to know who showed her the pictures, and when, considering she was also working with an LE sketch artist. If the mystery man wasn't a POI, I wonder why he didn't try to get a more detailed physical description -- wouldn't this be the important part?

Unfortunately, Gatto couldn't answer questions like whether 'dark skinned' referred to skin tone or race, or why she was certain of the exact time, because he said the witness wouldn't speak to him again (Someone had gotten to her -- he doesn't explain this). That also means he couldn't show her pictures of anyone else to see if it might fit her description. But if you re-read the posts here, you can see the theory of the 'mystery man' evolve. First the guy who found the keys was considered as a potential candidate, but then someone suggested ZO's roommate, which fit in nicely with the internet campaign that was focusing on ZO at PT. This person didn't match the height or weight description, but was 'dark skinned' and had sideburns. He then posted pictures and tweets of this person and their friends, none of whom were POI, not so subtly allowing people to 'connect the dots'. He did not, however, manage to confirm the rumors about ZO, or whether the potential 'mystery man' was in Bloomington, let alone out that night. He also didn't make any direct allegations, but there's no question that his blog was considered a source of information, and these guys names still pop up in theories here, and are mentioned as 'POI', even though there doesn't appear to be a shred of evidence pointing to them having anything to do with Lauren's disappearance.

So, I know, I've pointed this out before, but every time I go back to a Gatto post, I find it curious how every single piece of 'breaking news' that Gatto uncovered himself was about Corey not being involved:

- Lauren was at the bar by herself, and not with Corey Rossman
- The 'mystery man' was definitely not Corey Rossman
- Corey ran out of Smallwood by himself, and Lauren followed him later
- He also described Corey as being the most 'forthcoming' of the POI, which is a little odd considering the whole amnesia thing...

And they were all wrong, but no corrections or updates were made to his blog, as far as I know. I know I sound critical, but Tony himself responded to people's questions about his blog by drawing attention to himself not as a 'blogger' but as an award-winning journalist, so that invites the same kinds of questions you would ask of any investigative reporting. He was contacting people closely involved with the case, people on PT and here, offering anonymity in exchange for information, so it really makes me wonder who may have influenced his theories about this case. I'd also like to know how he found the bar manager witness, whether his info came entirely from his meeting with her, and whether he verified the sources he was getting information from somehow, since he said he only spoke to one source in person. (I wish I could read his notes!)
 
Jupiter812 said:
What about if she was still alive but waning? For example, if her organs were shutting down do you know if that would be detected or is it an either/or thing?
Click to expand...

I have no medical knowledge of long QT, but based on what others have said here, perhaps she started seizing. If so, that should have been readily noticeable. That would have been an immediate thing, though. If her organs began shutting down after that, I'd think she would go into cardiac arrest and lose bodily function and temperature. Perhaps someone with medical training could substantiate or elaborate?
 
imkeylime said:
I have no medical knowledge of long QT, but based on what others have said here, perhaps she started seizing. If so, that should have been readily noticeable. That would have been an immediate thing, though. If her organs began shutting down after that, I'd think she would go into cardiac arrest and lose bodily function and temperature. Perhaps someone with medical training could substantiate or elaborate?
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

From the above link:
Rosenbaum told investigators that either Spierer or Rohn told him they'd crushed up and snorted Klonopin, a drug used for seizures and panic attacks

Would this have kept her from having seizures if she had not taken her medicine?
 
Yes, assuming Lauren unfortunately became deceased, isn't vomiting very common??

It seems to me that someone who was perishing due to drug/alcohol overdose there would be vomiting or even foaming at the mouth while seizing (UGH sorry for the visual)

As imkeylime stated above also typically when people die their bowel and bladder release.

Where are all of these bodily fluids?? You would think that if Lauren died within either JR or MB/CR's apartments at 5N, LE would have discovered evidence of these fluids, right? I know it has been said that CR vomited in the apartment.

There has been talk of CR stashing Lauren behind the dumpster. Since it is rumored that dogs alerted at this dumpster, (if that is true) I would imagine this paved area was also examined.

Hmm just thinking.
 
Chuz Life said:
Hey BX2, your comment reminds me of something. It may have been brought up before. But why walk barefoot up the alleyways?

The only reason doing so makes sense to me.... is that CR and LS did not want to be seen by Lauren's boyfriend (Jesse Wolff).

Most all of the news reports and police reports point to the alleys as their most frequented path... but I agree with you about the speculation.

I wish we had some more hard evidence.

Edited to add that some of the times that CR was carrying Lauren may have been because they were walking on gravel and he was trying to protect her bare feet. This also would go against the claim that it was Lauren who was helping him.[/QUOTE]

BBM I've tried to tell people that the alley often has glass and rough gravel,
and very hard to walk on in bare feet.
Click to expand...
 
Wondering Aloud said:
Random Thoughts:

If police had any indication this was random, I believe a sterner warning would have been issued to local women to be on the lookout. Wishful thinking on my part (since I live here)?According to reports, DR passed (or at least showed no deception) on an FBI administered polygraph. Can we assume they asked him 'do you know what happened to LS?'? Can we assume that if he took the test, he cooperated in other ways, i.e. gave up his cell phone? I think so.

I ask the above because he is still friends with JR on FB. Good friends and he believes JR is innocent or watching his posts? Is that a female mindset that it has to be either or? Men, can you answer?

So JR claims he saw her (insert which verbiage you believe). According to reports (thru his atty), he went out with the police in the area, gave 2 statements, and shared his phone. Later, same atty reports he also, met with CS and RS, gave DNA and his appt was searched. So, he is either our sociopath, or.........
back to my original theory, someone followed her...MB? What bothers me, IF JR saw her round the corner, is no camera pick up (that we know of), and remember the homeless guy and the scream, did the white truck guys see anything?

The apt. searches by dogs. Didn't search until June 29th. So I wonder, warrant, or consent, or lease ended and property management gave consent? Why did it take so long?

JW, still friends with LS cousin (?) on FB...same question as above. But mostly a rant about his P's. I wouldn't have thought twice had that outburst come from the parent's of any of our other usual POIs. But this is someone their son loved, for quite some time. They should be out demanding the truth. Instead, AW shows more concern for how his dog was treated (i can give it equal...just not more) and NW is all peace, love and harmony except when it comes to LS.
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BBM, actually, the newspapers won't even reveal the name of a bar when a woman has been rufied and raped while leaving!
 
doubtingthomas said:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

From the above link:
Rosenbaum told investigators that either Spierer or Rohn told him they'd crushed up and snorted Klonopin, a drug used for seizures and panic attacks

Would this have kept her from having seizures if she had not taken her medicine?
Click to expand...


A side effect of klonopin can be new or worsening seizures.

Indications of overdose include loss of coordination, drowsiness, confusion, swelling of the face. (some of which Lauren was experiencing... however with the addition of alcohol and possibly cocaine(?) it's hard to attribute her condition to any singular factor)

http://www.drugs.com/klonopin.html

http://www.medicinenet.com/clonazepam-oral/page3.htm

I wonder how many times in the past Lauren had taken klonopin. Doubtful that this was the first time, but if so she may have been caught off guard by side-effects.
 
AbbeyR said:
This report says that Rohn was back home by 12:30 am
http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
Click to expand...

Very good. Thank you!

AbbeyR said:
This has always confused me a bit, since it was said that Lauren and DR went to JR's together, but Lauren's mom made a point of saying that Lauren last used her phone from Smallwood at 12:16 am.
Click to expand...

That's barely possible but it is possible. I wonder how the Mom knows the last use was actually placed from Smallwood.

5N is only a few minutes walk from Smallwood. They might have to hustle, but a person could call on the way out of Smallwood (12:15 am) - then walk to 5N and back in 15 - 20 minutes.
 
Dixie811 said:
Yes, assuming Lauren unfortunately became deceased, isn't vomiting very common??

It seems to me that someone who was perishing due to drug/alcohol overdose there would be vomiting or even foaming at the mouth while seizing (UGH sorry for the visual)

As imkeylime stated above also typically when people die their bowel and bladder release.

Where are all of these bodily fluids?? You would think that if Lauren died within either JR or MB/CR's apartments at 5N, LE would have discovered evidence of these fluids, right? I know it has been said that CR vomited in the apartment.

There has been talk of CR stashing Lauren behind the dumpster. Since it is rumored that dogs alerted at this dumpster, (if that is true) I would imagine this paved area was also examined.

Hmm just thinking.
Click to expand...

BBM

I've read this dozens of times. Just now made me wonder.

Why give this information, and who gave it?
Was it because "fluids" had been freshly cleaned, from carpet, or rugs?
Did police test to see if it was indeed CR's fluids? On the stairs right? Going up to the apartment or stairs going up inside the apartment?
Maybe MB didn't walk her to JR's but carried her unconscience?
Calls were made to DR, JW, maybe even HT or
DB, (which I have discovered is a very viable scenario) pulled his car around front, she was "walked" to the car, and JR did "see" her round the corner, just not walking. Still able to pass a polygraph if asked the right questions.
DB takes care of the problem by noon and tweets as previously planned.
..?
 
Mahouston69 said:
DB takes care of the problem by noon and tweets as previously planned.
..?
Click to expand...

The thing I still can't totally get past about DB is, why was he never named a POI or mentioned by the Spierers or anyone else?

After reading the rumor about the ping in Martinsville, this stood out to me in an article about Jim Voyles, JR's lawyer -- He has defended at least 3 clients in murder trials that involved cell phone data:

But Voyles’s folksy style belied a shrewd understanding of the evidence and how to spin it to a jury. It might have been just a coincidence that Tunks was at the scene of the murder, close to the time when the murder might have occurred. But that’s some coincidence. So Voyles challenged the prosecution’s assumptions about where Tunks was and when the victim was killed. One of the state’s detectives produced a lengthy report showing what cell towers Tunks’s phone signal “hit” while he was in New Jersey. In cross-examination, Voyles, who had previously tried two other cases involving cell-tower data, countered with some research of his own. “Nowadays, they can attempt to track your movement,” he says. “And what you have to do is try to explain to a jury that these things are not perfect, that the cell-tower information can have flaws. It doesn’t mean you’re standing under the tower when you’re using the phone. You very well could be in a different area, and the phone call has in fact bounced off one tower and is being recorded by another tower that it is not close to. My job was to say, ‘Let’s look beyond the tower as being authoritative.’”
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http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/Story.aspx?id=1447543

Even if cell phone data isn't involved, the bolded part above is worth remembering.
 
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