GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #15 *appeals denied*

Wanted to address this in a separate post because, well, I think it deserves one:

What if the rest, or a portion of the rest, of Lauren's remains should be discovered, under circumstances in which, normally, there would be media coverage (after notifying the family, etc., of course). If LE is barred from speaking to the media about the case, how would that be handled?

Just crossed my mind and now I'm really wondering.

Hot dang, interesting question. I started to answer it with an "educated" guess before I realized how little I knew.. so bear with me as I explain it back to myself like I'm 5.. (I assume you know the basics, which I did not)

The main thing is that LE isn't completely barred from speaking to the media (nor any other trial participants). Georgia has one of the more loosely defined standard of measure as to what they are barred from saying: "Insofar as it restricts extrajudicial comments by trial participants, the order is evaluated under the less stringent standard…the ‘substantial likelihood of material prejudice’ standard."

From Atlanta Journal-Constitution v. State as mentioned in the gag order pdf.

So in speaking extrajudicially, which they still can, they have to determine if their comments contain any of the following:

I. implications about the defendant's character, credibility, reputation, or criminal record
—ie, facebook comments linking childporn and McDaniel's guilt
—Same standard by which admissibility is determined in the first place
II. an opinion as to their client's or the accused guilt or innocence
III. remarks about evidence the lawyer knows will be inadmissible
—presumably doesn't apply to LE?

Based on that I would at least hope to conclude that any additional remains discovered would be fair game in terms of discussion, for the most part. They're in the same evidentiary category as the torso, which hasn't been and won't (IMO) be a source of controversy barring any comments that link it to other evidence (torso related browser history.. idk).

Something that suggests the presence of remains would be barred, like blood or DNA found on his grandpa's property, if the Macon Telegraph's brief luminol test confusion is anything to go by. So I think "how did you find it?" could be a tricky question, especially if it was done with SM's help. I wonder how often pseudo-confessions happen when the "not guilty" plea has already been filed? Is that even possible? Seems like it's usually done in tandem with a guilty plea in exchange for a lowered sentence.. so potentially disregard that scenario.

So, IMO, possible clarifications not forbidden by the gag order:
—The ME confirming the identity
—The "completeness" of the remains, i.e. 4 limbs vs different quantity

vs..

Questionable inquiries:
—Crime scene specifics and animal scattering concerns
—How long they've been there (IMO it's a leading question that hints at the possibility of a different culprit, so however both sides answer could be seen as confidence in SM's respective guilt or innocence)

What your question made me curious about is what the discovery of the remains would do to the status of the case itself. We've seen delays occur because of computer forensics, which obviously doesn't hold comparable weight at trial (JMO). But even with the worst case scenario brought about by an evidence issue, if the case is dismissed it can be refiled with supplementary evidence. The gag order would not expire or have to be re-issued. I THINK.

Bringing me to something I can't find an clear answer to..

What about the wrongful death suit?

"A parallel civil and criminal case can be an avenue for civil discovery that is not available in the criminal case, a fact which often prompts a prosecution application for a stay of the civil case so as to protect its witnesses from exposure to civil discovery."

I could be wrong, but Lauren's family, as civil plaintiffs, would also be witnesses in the jury trial. Since a civil case doesn't technically issue a verdict it's not trying to prove what the state is or in the same manner, so despite the overlap of experts and witnesses, separate topics and arguments could still be presented during the proceedings. So, point being: if there are participants unique to the civil trial, depending on who's asked and how, could this be a sort of gag order loophole until a separate order is issued, assuming the participants were somehow known? I think I'm being absorbed into the quicksand of ridiculous hypotheticals now so I'll stop. Interesting stuff though.. definitely a highly unique case. Normally a missing body muddles the degree of the murder charge, but who knows what issues will come up with missing body parts, apart from COD?
 
Hot dang, interesting question. I started to answer it with an "educated" guess before I realized how little I knew.. so bear with me as I explain it back to myself like I'm 5.. (I assume you know the basics, which I did not)

The main thing is that LE isn't completely barred from speaking to the media (nor any other trial participants). Georgia has one of the more loosely defined standard of measure as to what they are barred from saying: "Insofar as it restricts extrajudicial comments by trial participants, the order is evaluated under the less stringent standard…the ‘substantial likelihood of material prejudice’ standard."

From Atlanta Journal-Constitution v. State as mentioned in the gag order pdf.

So in speaking extrajudicially, which they still can, they have to determine if their comments contain any of the following:

I. implications about the defendant's character, credibility, reputation, or criminal record
—ie, facebook comments linking childporn and McDaniel's guilt
—Same standard by which admissibility is determined in the first place
II. an opinion as to their client's or the accused guilt or innocence
III. remarks about evidence the lawyer knows will be inadmissible
—presumably doesn't apply to LE?

Based on that I would at least hope to conclude that any additional remains discovered would be fair game in terms of discussion, for the most part. They're in the same evidentiary category as the torso, which hasn't been and won't (IMO) be a source of controversy barring any comments that link it to other evidence (torso related browser history.. idk).

Something that suggests the presence of remains would be barred, like blood or DNA found on his grandpa's property, if the Macon Telegraph's brief luminol test confusion is anything to go by. So I think "how did you find it?" could be a tricky question, especially if it was done with SM's help. I wonder how often pseudo-confessions happen when the "not guilty" plea has already been filed? Is that even possible? Seems like it's usually done in tandem with a guilty plea in exchange for a lowered sentence.. so potentially disregard that scenario.

So, IMO, possible clarifications not forbidden by the gag order:
—The ME confirming the identity
—The "completeness" of the remains, i.e. 4 limbs vs different quantity

vs..

Questionable inquiries:
—Crime scene specifics and animal scattering concerns
—How long they've been there (IMO it's a leading question that hints at the possibility of a different culprit, so however both sides answer could be seen as confidence in SM's respective guilt or innocence)

What your question made me curious about is what the discovery of the remains would do to the status of the case itself. We've seen delays occur because of computer forensics, which obviously doesn't hold comparable weight at trial (JMO). But even with the worst case scenario brought about by an evidence issue, if the case is dismissed it can be refiled with supplementary evidence. The gag order would not expire or have to be re-issued. I THINK.

Bringing me to something I can't find an clear answer to..

What about the wrongful death suit?

"A parallel civil and criminal case can be an avenue for civil discovery that is not available in the criminal case, a fact which often prompts a prosecution application for a stay of the civil case so as to protect its witnesses from exposure to civil discovery."

I could be wrong, but Lauren's family, as civil plaintiffs, would also be witnesses in the jury trial. Since a civil case doesn't technically issue a verdict it's not trying to prove what the state is or in the same manner, so despite the overlap of experts and witnesses, separate topics and arguments could still be presented during the proceedings. So, point being: if there are participants unique to the civil trial, depending on who's asked and how, could this be a sort of gag order loophole until a separate order is issued, assuming the participants were somehow known? I think I'm being absorbed into the quicksand of ridiculous hypotheticals now so I'll stop. Interesting stuff though.. definitely a highly unique case. Normally a missing body muddles the degree of the murder charge, but who knows what issues will come up with missing body parts, apart from COD?

Whoa, bettiepageturner -- I sure hope all of THAT is not the basics you assumed I knew, LOL! (Because -- naw. I sure didn't.)

Lot of beans in that bowl!! May have to chew on them for a while...

But regarding the part about what the scope of the gag order actually is (or is allowed to be) in Georgia: Looks like you did a lot of homework. I didn't get that far. But what I think is, your interpretation may very well be correct, if it got to the point of the Macon media mounting a legal challenge or someone defying the order -- or maybe even just asking the judge for further clarification on what may and may not be done.

However -- on 13WMAZ news late last night, they related a bit more that the attorney with the Georgia First Amendment Foundation told them; I don't think this little snippet ever made it to the print version on the 13WMAZ web page. They said he also said that the order was too-something -- too broad, or too non-specific, I forget the term -- and that, as it stands, it would not allow those restricted even to share such things as the dates of upcoming hearings, court calendar, etc.

I really don't know!
 
Also bettiepageturner -- you referred to the Telegraph's "brief luminol test confusion." I guess you are meaning what the judge wrote of in his order: an instance in December when the Telegraph reported that a luminol test had shown the possibility of blood on something when, in actuality, the test had not indicated the possibility of blood on whatever-that-thing-was.

So -- what WAS the item/spot, whatever? Because I think I must have missed that particular goof. (Order says reporter corrected it very quickly after being made aware of the mistake.)
 
Did I do a poor job of skimming or is it known where it would get moved to? High profile cases always get moved to my county in GA for some reason, lol. I've never even been inside of a courthouse so I have no idea how trial spectating works, if that's the case again..

Simms hasn't approved it yet I think I read, but I didnt' note where either
 
I could be wrong, but Lauren's family, as civil plaintiffs, would also be witnesses in the jury trial. Since a civil case doesn't technically issue a verdict it's not trying to prove what the state is or in the same manner, so despite the overlap of experts and witnesses, separate topics and arguments could still be presented during the proceedings. So, point being: if there are participants unique to the civil trial, depending on who's asked and how, could this be a sort of gag order loophole until a separate order is issued, assuming the participants were somehow known? I think I'm being absorbed into the quicksand of ridiculous hypotheticals now so I'll stop. Interesting stuff though.. definitely a highly unique case. Normally a missing body muddles the degree of the murder charge, but who knows what issues will come up with missing body parts, apart from COD?

No, that wouldn't provide a loophole here. The attorneys in the civil case would still have an obligation, under Rule 3.6 of the Ga Rules of Professional Conduct, not to disseminate that kind of info, even if it had been obtained in a corresponding civil claim: "A lawyer who is participating or has participated in the investigation or litigation of a matter shall not make an extrajudicial statement that a person would reasonably believe to be disseminated by means of public communication if the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that it will have a substantial likelihood of materially prejudicing an adjudicative proceeding in the matter."
 
I doubt if the post-city/county merger reorganization described in the linked article will impact Lauren's case much, if at all, but ya never know... and besides, this will serve to bump Lauren's thread:

Crime lab reorganization underway with Macon-Bibb merger

...The sheriff’s office now operates two labs, one in the old GBI Division of Forensic Sciences at the corner of Oglethorpe and Second streets, which the county took over in 2010. The other is the former Macon Police Crime Lab, which shares a building with the old precinct office on Houston Avenue. ...


...A mammoth job will be to go through dozens of boxes of evidence files collected over decades.


Hagerman said once everything is reviewed, he can appeal to a judge to allow for some items to be destroyed or sold. ...

read more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/01/27/2901993/crime-lab-reorganization-underway.html

Very quiet in the local media about the case. I've been trying to check (not with a fine-tooth comb but pretty regularly) for editorials/letters to the editor (these most often won't show up in my Google searches) on macon.com to see if The Telegraph and/or community has voiced a view on the gag order -- but I have not seen anything.

Did Judge Simms go with the gag order rather than consider a change of venue? If so, I don't think that's a good move -- it comes too late in the game, I'm afraid. Has he ruled on the change of venue -- will we EVER even know??
 
Monday will be Feb. 3, the date, I believe, the trial was to have begun -- before all "the latest" put it on hold.

I'm hoping that date will prompt at least a bit of media coverage, even if it is mostly just a recap of the "latest" -- belated computer evidence, request for continuance, motion for change of venue, gag order.

I find myself wondering just a bit if a plea deal of some sort might be in the works....
 
The Telegraph/macon.com also ringing in about the motion...and a bit more:

Prosecutors, defense want McDaniel jurors to visit scene

...Bibb County Superior Court Judge Howard Simms has yet to issue a decision on where the trial will be or when it will begin. It wouldn’t be unusual, though, for the case to be heard in Macon by jurors brought in from another part of the state. ...

more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/02/04/2916483/prosecutors-defense-want-mcdaniel.html
 
Nothing really new in this report, but posting it since it is more from Lauren's home area, from CBS Baltimore (seems AP has picked up the story of the latest developments):

Prosecutors Want Jurors To Visit Ga. Apartments Where Slain Law Grad From Md. Lived

...Defense lawyers have requested a change of venue, saying there’s been extensive publicity in central Georgia....
more at: http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2014/...partments-where-slain-law-grad-from-md-lived/

ETA: Also, from another Macon television station:

41NBC/WMGT - McDaniel Trial Motion - 2.05.14 - YouTube
 
What happened to Lauren seems so surreal. Like a bad nightmare. I can hardly believe this happened to her.
 
Trial is set to begin on April 28...


McDaniel trial date set; Giddings family ‘prays for justice’

...Bibb County Superior Court Judge Howard Simms set the date Friday but did not announce where the case will be heard. ...
read more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/02/14/2937375/mcdaniel-to-go-to-trial-in-april.html


McDaniel murder trial scheduled for April

...
Last week, Bibb District Attorney David Cooke filed a motion asking that the jury be allowed to view the alleged crime scene, the Barristers Hall apartment complex where McDaniel and Giddings both lived, before the trial. Simms has not ruled on that motion either. ...

more at: http://www.13wmaz.com/story/news/local/macon/2014/02/14/mcdaniel-trial-april/5485177/




One Macon area TV station quotes Hogue as saying the judge has granted the motion to change venue but has not chosen the location (to move to or from which to import jurors, I guess) -- but this is not specified in the other media reports, so IDK:

Stephen McDaniel Murder Trial to Start in April

...Hogue says the defense's motion to change the venue was granted, but he's not sure where it is going....

more at: http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/31906-trial-date-set-in-stephen-mcdaniel-murder-trial


McDaniel Trial Set for April
more at: http://www.wgxa.tv/story/mcdaniel-trial-set-for-april-20140214
 
Trial is set to begin on April 28...

McDaniel trial date set; Giddings family ‘prays for justice’

...Bibb County Superior Court Judge Howard Simms set the date Friday but did not announce where the case will be heard. ...
read more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/02/14/2937375/mcdaniel-to-go-to-trial-in-april.html
McDaniel murder trial scheduled for April

...
Last week, Bibb District Attorney David Cooke filed a motion asking that the jury be allowed to view the alleged crime scene, the Barristers Hall apartment complex where McDaniel and Giddings both lived, before the trial. Simms has not ruled on that motion either. ...
more at: http://www.13wmaz.com/story/news/local/macon/2014/02/14/mcdaniel-trial-april/5485177/
Stephen McDaniel Murder Trial to Start in April

...Hogue says the defense's motion to change the venue was granted, but he's not sure where it is going....
more at: http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/31906-trial-date-set-in-stephen-mcdaniel-murder-trial
McDaniel Trial Set for April
more at: http://www.wgxa.tv/story/mcdaniel-trial-set-for-april-20140214
 
McDaniel trial could be moved to Henry County

The murder trial of accused dismemberment killer Stephen McDaniel, scheduled to begin April 28, may be held in McDonough.


Henry County has received consideration, officials there said, though Bibb Superior Court Judge Howard Simms has yet to issue a venue change order. ...


...Bibb County has expressed interest in using Henry County’s largest courtroom, which seats about 100 people.


There is an overflow room nearby that seats 80 or so that would enable spectators to view a closed-circuit television feed of proceedings. ...


read more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/02/21/2950398/mcdaniel-trial-could-be-moved.html
 
I see that several media outlets in other parts of the country have picked up the AP version of The Telegraph story I linked just above -- since all are pretty much alike, not linking any of them. Seems one area TV station, however, may have done a little probing on the Henry County angle on its own, so am linking that, though nothing new really:

McDaniel Murder Trial Could be Held in Henry County
...
Bibb County Superior Court Judge Howard Simms tells 41NBC Henry County is one of the locations they are considering to hold the trial. ...

...McDaniel's attorney Frank Hogue tells 41NBC he expects a decision on the location soon. ...


more at: http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/32069-mcdaniel-murder-trial-could-be-held-in-henry-county
 
I think it's really not likely that skeletal remains located in Banks County, Georgia, are related to Lauren's case -- still, whenever bones are found in Georgia, I cannot help but think of Lauren:

Human remains recovered in Banks County



BANKS CROSSING, Ga. — The Georgia Bureau of Investigation says human skeletal remains have been found in a wooded area of northeast Georgia. ...

more at: http://www.macon.com/2014/02/25/2958561/human-remains-recovered-in-banks.html



Authorities searched Banks Co. woods where human remains found

State and local law enforcement officers continued searching on Tuesday some woods behind a hotel where human skeletal remains were found late Monday...


...The GBI has not said if they think the remains are that of a man or woman.


Authorities also have not released how the bones were initially discovered. ...

more at: http://onlineathens.com/local-news/...ched-banks-co-woods-where-human-remains-found
 
More on the Banks County skeletal remains -- whoever this is, I hope an ID can be made and he or she can go home:

Skeletal remains from Banks County taken to State Crime Lab for analysis

The partial skeleton of a human found this week in Banks County was transported to the State Crime Lab on Thursday....


“We don’t have any tentative identification right now and I don’t know what we’ll be able to get in terms of the manner of death,” Georgia Bureau of Investigation Agent Mike Ayers said. ...


...“It does appear (the bones) have been there for a long time and they are scattered over a large area. ...


The skeleton was found about 8:30 p.m. Monday by two men who were at a creek in the forest .... Ayers declined to say which bone the men found that made them suspicious it was human....

more at: http://onlineathens.com/breaking-ne...s-banks-county-taken-state-crime-lab-analysis
 
The missing body parts are likely in one of the Bibb County dumps (very very high probability of that).

Hogue is doing his job with the gag order.

The kiddie *advertiser censored* charges better be more than cartoons, and they had best be able to prove when he DOWNLOADED the so called illegal *advertiser censored* else that is a waste of tax payer dollars too.

Once the Telegraph comments became facebook only I stopped reading it. The comments were the reason I pulled up that site. I can still comment safely but apparently very few others can.
 

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