Person doing a backbend or hanging upside down in dense foliage

No, not consistent at all. I still think it's more likely a man doing the back bend.
 
Please forgive me if I'm asking silly questions. I have said that I am new and new to hearing about this case, which is fascinating to me for many personal reasons, which I won't state here. While some of you have been studying this case for months or years, its new to me, so please have patience with me.

I am wondering if people are generally consistent with the belief that the girl dancing in the woods and with the helmet on are the same person as the one doing the back bend in the photo?

Thanks for anyone who will answer this question for me.

As the replies above indicate, no real consensus even on whether the "hanger" is female. (Shrug!) I've beat that horse enough.

Some people who see female also see "hanger" = "dancer." That's a way tougher call because the hanger picture gives you peripheral areas but not the interior of the face. That plant is just perfectly positioned to defeat all the things you usually do in asking if two pictures are of the same person. It's harder to match with just hair, forehead, eyebrows, some indirect data (a profile shadow) about chin shape, etc.

Some people see mismatches in details of head hair, eyebrows, and armpit hair. I mostly don't. For sure, all the dancer pics are the same person, but even those pictures vary from one to the other in how dark her hair looks and the exact shape of her eyebrows. I'm not sure why. Could be the lighting at the time, the deterioration of really old negatives, or differences in their treatment in the police lab darkroom. For me, most of the differences between any one dancer shot and the hanger are within the range of variation in just the dancer pics. I've tried lots of side-by-sides and they tend to snap in for me pretty well.

Setting and lighting match only so far. Both look more East Coast than West. The hanger picture has a "deep woods" look to it and is in sunny-day light dappled by tree shadows. The dancer shots are among trees on the edge of some bright green grass expanse, maybe a park or a golf course, on a cloudy day.

In the same picture that shows the open area, it looks like the sun is starting to burn through.

00394.jpg


Thus, I can imagine a scenario where all the pictures have the same person. Your mileage may vary. It does for a lot of people.
 
How do you know this photo was altered by LE? There really is no point in continuing to argue this point. What difference does it make, unless someone is trying to look through all the missing persons sites to find a match. I haven't seen much interest in that, just interest in the fact this is a rather disturbing and fascinating photograph.

I think its also worth note that LE seemed to crop photos for seemingly no reason so the photo being cropped (or not) really means nothing. One photo (the communion photo) was cropped so that you could only see that she was sitting on someones lap yet when the full photo was released she was sitting on Alcala's lap. With no rhyme or reason behind their cropping (or not) of photos we cant really assume anything about the photos, even if they appear to be altered.

Thats part of what is so annoying about trying to figure out who these people are - LE should at the very least TELL us what the gender is on the photos that are questionable if they have cropped any nudity out of so we dont have to spend time trying to figure out something they may know for certain.
 
I wonder if there was something wrong with the mouth area and photo shop put the branch there.
 
I picked this picture out to compare with unidentified and missing people because imo it is very likely he/she is no longer with us. My thinking was to look through male photos because I don't think anyone has ever associated RA with male victims. I thought it might be productive. I looked through a number of sites, looking for male missing or unid'd during the time period. My trouble was there were too many with no photograph and only vague descriptions. I realized it would take some interest by LE to go any further, and the interest just doesn't seem to be there. (Also I am a total novice). But the point I want to make to anyone interested in searching, this person may be a female, but it would be worth searching for males because it's less likely anyone has been searching.
 
Sorry.. I have to rant for a second!

Its so weird to me that we live in a world that Alcala could do so many horrible things to people and never really have to pay for it. Sure, hes in jail but Im sure he finds a lot of comfort in the fact that he knows that people are looking through his photos and trying to figure out which are his victims.

He was able to do horrible things to people for YEARS before ever even getting caught and now he gets to think about people having to look at his photo 'collection' in an attempt to find answers in his digusting little game.

He repeatedly strangled people until they lost consciousness, then revived them only to repeat the process several times before finally killing them and the punishment for that is what? To sit in a prison for years doing nothing but thinking about the things hes done with that stupid smirk on his face? To be able to eat, sleep, breathe and even write a book that further victimize the victims?

Im not typically for the eye for an eye thing but seriously, I wish someone would smash his head in - AFTER they make him identify every person he harmed. His mother and sister should be held responsible for their actions in regards to helping him, too. :furious:
 
I TOTALLY agree! But, he's definitely not the first one to live this way and won't be the last. Gary Ridgway (The Green River Killer) has probably dozens of other women he's killed and no one knows about...but he doesn't even have the death penalty. That's the way our stupid legal system works.

I personally think that every person who has killed another (especially children) should be given the same death that they gave their victims. This is only a dream on my part...would never happen. But, I bet it would curb our murder rate just a bit!
 
I TOTALLY agree! But, he's definitely not the first one to live this way and won't be the last. Gary Ridgway (The Green River Killer) has probably dozens of other women he's killed and no one knows about...but he doesn't even have the death penalty. That's the way our stupid legal system works.

I personally think that every person who has killed another (especially children) should be given the same death that they gave their victims. This is only a dream on my part...would never happen. But, I bet it would curb our murder rate just a bit!

Alcala and Ridgway seem to have a lot in common and Im sure they both have killed many more people than we assume. I dont think Ill ever understand the complete disconnect they seem to have from what they have done - Alcala and the smirking, Radar with the bragging in the victim impact video and Ridgway's gloating.

Ok.. Back on topic (sorry!!) but I find this photo the most annoying of them all - Ill look at it one day and be certain its a male then be certain its a woman the next.

Trying to think outloud -

1) Why did LE release this photo? Assuming there is a reason behind the photos they listed why would they release this photo when it clearly doesnt offer much in the way of indentifying the person? The face is upside down and mostly covered and there is nothing in the background that would really help figuring out who this person was - the only reasons I can think of that they would release this photo are as follows:

• This one photo was the only photo that showed this person in Alcala's "stash" so they had no other choice than to release the one photo they had access to. This seems unlikely given that Alcala seemed to take numerous photos of the people he photographed - not just one. (Its possible that there was a complete set but for whatever reason Alcala only kept this one in his locker.)

OR

• This photo was a part of a 'set' and this picture was the least graphic of them.

Can anyone else think of reasons why they would only release this one photo?
 
1) Why did LE release this photo? Assuming there is a reason behind the photos they listed why would they release this photo when it clearly doesnt offer much in the way of indentifying the person? The face is upside down and mostly covered and there is nothing in the background that would really help figuring out who this person was - the only reasons I can think of that they would release this photo are as follows:

• This one photo was the only photo that showed this person in Alcala's "stash" so they had no other choice than to release the one photo they had access to. This seems unlikely given that Alcala seemed to take numerous photos of the people he photographed - not just one. (Its possible that there was a complete set but for whatever reason Alcala only kept this one in his locker.)

Can anyone else think of reasons why they would only release this one photo?

I think you've hit on it there. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any other pictures of someone wearing the acid washed jeans. With so much of the persons face obscured, I doubt they could match it to anyone else. Also I would expect the event would stick in someone's mind. I mean, how often does anyone do a backbend while shirtless in foliage?
 
Hi all! I have never posted in this forum but have been following along and reading all of your great ideas.

I find this photo sooooo disturbing but I can't seem to let it go. I blew it up even larger and found something of interest that I wanted to share as I am sure you all have better trained eyes from studying these pics than myself.

I found this by enlarging the pic on post #11 of this thread. You can enlarge the pic by holding your ctrl button and pressing the plus button over and over. Use the ctrl and minus button to return to your normal size.

Anyway, I blew it up to about 300 percent and I noticed something in this persons hair that I think could be one of those plastic headbands that is hanging askew or some type of hair clip. It is difficult to see because it is brown.

Place your finger on the tip of that leaf over the eye and follow the direction of that leaf over the forehead and into the hair area and you will see circles sort of like this. O-O

ARe my eyes just playing tricks on me or does anyone else see this? It is really bothering me. TIA for you input.

MOO

wm
 
Hi all! I have never posted in this forum but have been following along and reading all of your great ideas.

I find this photo sooooo disturbing but I can't seem to let it go. I blew it up even larger and found something of interest that I wanted to share as I am sure you all have better trained eyes from studying these pics than myself.

I found this by enlarging the pic on post #11 of this thread. You can enlarge the pic by holding your ctrl button and pressing the plus button over and over. Use the ctrl and minus button to return to your normal size.

Anyway, I blew it up to about 300 percent and I noticed something in this persons hair that I think could be one of those plastic headbands that is hanging askew or some type of hair clip. It is difficult to see because it is brown.

Place your finger on the tip of that leaf over the eye and follow the direction of that leaf over the forehead and into the hair area and you will see circles sort of like this. O-O

ARe my eyes just playing tricks on me or does anyone else see this? It is really bothering me. TIA for you input.

MOO

wm

I could be seeing things too but, enlarging and turning on the lights, there's a "W" or maybe "LV" in there. Or a photo artefact.

HairClipMaybe.jpg


Edit: Or, if it's hanging upside-down, maybe an "M" or ??? It would probably flip along with the hanger. (But, then again, the picture already IS flipped but needs left and right reversed. Do that and you get something that could be "Vd" which I'm not betting on.)
 
WH, I think I am seeing something different from you which is south and west of the "W' in this pic. I do see the W or LV that you speak of, but below and to the left of that is where I am seeing the headband/hair accessory.

IDK, I may be seeing things but it reminds me of one of those plastic headbands from that time period. It isn't solid but has cutouts in the center. Kind of like a circular/serpentine design.

I was hesitant to even bring this up as I recall sleuths reviewing photos of the remains site in the Caylee case and everyone saw kittens.

I do find comfort that I am not the only person who sees something in that mass of hair! thanks,

wm

ETA After taking yet another look at the photo, could that be part of a chain that I am seeing?
 
I'm not seeing anything artificial in that area except for that funny W / LV thing. That's probably magnified noise, something that can happen when you take an old negative, develop and digitize the picture, then enlarge it and brighten it. I've been looking around for monogrammed hair clips, pendants, etc, something it might be, but doubt if it's anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-xgGX_vt2I
 
WH, I think I am seeing something different from you which is south and west of the "W' in this pic. I do see the W or LV that you speak of, but below and to the left of that is where I am seeing the headband/hair accessory.

IDK, I may be seeing things but it reminds me of one of those plastic headbands from that time period. It isn't solid but has cutouts in the center. Kind of like a circular/serpentine design.

I was hesitant to even bring this up as I recall sleuths reviewing photos of the remains site in the Caylee case and everyone saw kittens.

I do find comfort that I am not the only person who sees something in that mass of hair! thanks,

wm

ETA After taking yet another look at the photo, could that be part of a chain that I am seeing?

I see what you are seeing. I had headbands like that...back in the day, lol.
 
My guess is that Alcala is carrying this deceased victim on his back, and Alcala has lowered his knees to toss the body over a cliff perhaps into water. Since instant cameras were invented maybe Alcala timed the action. The hair seemed matted. Like the person may have died a day or so.

In some pics there is a person don/t know if male or female with bangs, dark circle around eyes and reddish blonde hair could this be the person. Or the girl in the flowery top.
 
My guess is that Alcala is carrying this deceased victim on his back, and Alcala has lowered his knees to toss the body over a cliff perhaps into water. Since instant cameras were invented maybe Alcala timed the action. The hair seemed matted. Like the person may have died a day or so.

In some pics there is a person don/t know if male or female with bangs, dark circle around eyes and reddish blonde hair could this be the person. Or the girl in the flowery top.

When I first saw this picture I reacted to it similarly. But if the legs were draped over his shoulders the body would be hanging right down his back, laying on it, not a foot and a half away. Also, with the rearward angle of his legs in that picture, he would be so off-balance he would flop right over even without the extra weight hanging off his back. When you hoist something that way, you lean forward to keep your center of gravity over your feet.

This post shows what I came up with to deal with those problems.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Man Hanging Upside Down In Dense Foliage


But most people see a backbend, or maybe a limp body supported in some way in the middle. Sometimes I do too now.
 
A few of you know that I am a professional photographer and know a lot of other photographers, including crime scene photographers. Yesterday I presented the photo that we have here of the person doing the back bend in the woods.

I just thought that I would share with you some of their perceptions and comments.

The vast majority of them believe that this is a male and every one of them believed this is a live person simply doing a back bend. It is NOT the female dancing in the woods because there is a photo of her with her arms up and there is no arm pit hair. This person had a fair amount of pit hair. They also mentioned that this person is muscular and more masculine in facial structure.

Here are a couple of the comments:

"I don't agree with the theory that this is a photo of someone dead. There would be some lividity if that were the case. The facial color looks pretty even with the exception of the reddening of the forehead, which is consistent with a live person being upside down.

As for the muscle tenseness to hold oneself up this person appears to be pretty slight in stature .. they don't tense up like fat dudes like me would need to."


"The person in question is almost certainly doing a back bend. You can see the shadows and thus the direction of the sun, and anything the person could be slung over would be casting a shadow onto the ground. The person doing the back bend is not dead. Everything to me says back bend. The flush in the face, the strain in the neck, the head is held slightly up, and the eye that we can see is looking straight forward (relative to the ground, which looks like it's looking up relative to the head). Also the position of the arms with the elbows facing forward says back bend (a relaxed position of someone dead would likely have the elbows facing more outward). I also found the theory on the web slueth website that the person to had a head gash seems unlikely. Looks far more to me like the hairline, with many hairlines cutting inward like that at the temple (combined with jpeg compression in the photo and some bad color)."

We still don't know who this person is and don't know if he is alive, but I have changed my mind about it being the girl in the woods after I talked with some others and heard some professional opinions. I hope this will help anyone struggling with this photo as it helped me.
 
This pic is quite the puzzle
In " thread called "Profile Girl Against Green Wall' I now think this person hanging, and dead is "Wilma June Nissen. No, I do not think this girl against the green wall is Wilma. Profile In the Iowa site says that Wilma had arrest records out in California where I assummed she had met Alcala before, and he went out to Iowa to maybe meet her or visa versa. One site says RA had addresses on the back of some pics, and that at least 2 of the photos had dead people photographed.
 
This new thread seems to address some points I and some others were making elsewhere regarding the "just a male doing a backbend and nothing else to see here" hypothesis. I appreciate the effort to provide some feedback. However, with one notable exception, the comments do not answer the mail on the objections we have raised but restate the original "nothing to see here" point, adding only an argument from numbers and/or authority.

The vast majority of them believe that this is a male and every one of them believed this is a live person simply doing a back bend. It is NOT the female dancing in the woods because there is a photo of her with her arms up and there is no arm pit hair. This person had a fair amount of pit hair. They also mentioned that this person is muscular and more masculine in facial structure.

I and others gave the male-female and crime-scene vs "nothing to see here" issues separate and detailed treatments on the other thread. Also the armpit hair question.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Man Hanging Upside Down In Dense Foliage

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Man Hanging Upside Down In Dense Foliage

Man Hanging Upside Down In Dense Foliage - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Man Hanging Upside Down In Dense Foliage


I want to avoid going 'round and 'round if nothing new is being said. I'll deal with the last quoted sentence as it's been a while for that argument.

side-by-side5.jpg


When I look at the above, making allowance I didn't manage to put them at exactly the same scale, hanger and dancer have the same proportions in forearms, upper arms, you name it. They also match very well to the extent you can compare features like hairline, forehead, neck, chin, etc. An army of experts can swear the photo on the left is a muscular man and it wouldn't mean a thing against my lyin' eyes.

I don't agree with the theory that this is a photo of someone dead. There would be some lividity if that were the case. The facial color looks pretty even ...

EEEP!! "Pretty even?" An argument from absence of evidence--from NOT seeing something--works best if NOBODY sees it. Once some substantial number of people are blowing up pictures of the a feature and passing them around, getting more people to say they don't see it won't help you with those who do.

I can see it, and my graphic editor software can see it. It's there even if a panel of experts, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or the State of Oregon swears on a stack of bibles they can't see it. There is lividity of some sort or other over a good bit of the face and head. (But the parts that aren't red are deathly pale. "Pretty even!!??") I put the color dropper over the tops of the cheekbones and it tested bright red.

lividity.jpg


... with the exception of the reddening of the forehead, which is consistent with a live person being upside down.

Just wrong. A well-defined, livid "down" area is strong evidence the subject is dead. Very strong evidence. The presence of such is grounds for withholding CPR and other potential lifesaving treatments. They wouldn't use it that way if it wasn't a reliable indicator. Don't take my word for it. Check the resources below.
(*** CAUTION: First link contains a gross picture. The LAST link is an image Google on "livor mortis" and is tons of gross pics.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis

http://www.vchca.org/emspolicies/0606_Determination_of_Death_in_the_Field.sflb.ashx

http://www.google.com/search?q="dep...ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7HPIA_en

http://www.google.com/images?q=livo...&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1003&bih=567


You can't just hang upside-down and get that. You have to be dead. Somewhere there's a crime-scene photographer who disagrees, but I'm not making this up.

You can have it that the red area is blood pooling under gravity, but only if the person is dead. You can have it that the person may be alive, if the red area is a nasty bruise surrounding a nastier gash. I'm not buying exertion flush for that black thing enclosed by that red thing, never mind other problems.

The person in question is almost certainly doing a back bend. You can see the shadows and thus the direction of the sun, and anything the person could be slung over would be casting a shadow onto the ground.

I looked for a shadow, too, and agree that if a support extended to the right of the subject you could expect to see a shadow for it. That side is mostly sunny. The left side is practically all shapeless shadow. If the support is on the left, or a if it's a rope attached to a belt--or the feet, assuming the legs wearing the jeans aren't the hanger's but belong to Alcala--anything off the top of the frame, the shadow would be out of the picture to the left or lost in the mass of existing shadow on that side.

The person doing the back bend is not dead. Everything to me says back bend. The flush in the face, the strain in the neck, the head is held slightly up, and the eye that we can see is looking straight forward (relative to the ground, which looks like it's looking up relative to the head).

Note that NOW somebody sees redness in the face. There are areas of redness amid the pallor, yes. I agree. But just above, somebody else made an argument from not seeing anything of the sort.

I concur now as before that the head is up a little. Maybe it's just swinging freely. Maybe a badly bruised, choked person is still alive and moving it. There is no strain that I can see in the arms or the neck.

Also the position of the arms with the elbows facing forward says back bend (a relaxed position of someone dead would likely have the elbows facing more outward).

When I try relaxing my arms and dangling them, the rest position is about 1/3 forward, which corresponds well to the picture. Directly out feels a little strain and takes a small effort to hold.

I also found the theory on the web slueth website that the person to had a head gash seems unlikely. Looks far more to me like the hairline, with many hairlines cutting inward like that at the temple (combined with jpeg compression in the photo and some bad color).

This is the first time anyone arguing the "nothing to see here" position has addressed that dark region at all. Duly noted. Doesn't work for me, though. Maybe they haven't seen the enlarged, brightned pictures?

The "cutting" angle of the dark area crosses into the sunlight. In fact, it goes WAY too far in--a third of the way over the eyebrow!--to be a male's temple hair. (Maybe on Lon Chaney, Jr. This person isn't all that hairy, whatever you think of those armpits.) More importantly, there's not a hair visible in the sunlit portion OR on the part that's in shade. It's surface color.

TheWound.jpg


What is not said is also interesting. There's no mention anywhere about why or how a "live person simply doing a backbend" would be bleeding from the nose or mouth and (it appears) the far eye, with the blood trails running up the head. No speculation of what that red stripe is across the neck. (Did they only see the original, non-enlarged picture?) It's an exercise mostly in not seeing and not addressing.
 

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