CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

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Denied foul play? hmm.

Is this to protect the interest of various stakeholders? i.e. Cecil Hotel reputation, LE in that vicinity, tourism to LA?
 
Two huge questions....

1. What was her state of mind, at the time of her last known sighting....
IMO, she appears to be acting strange right from the moment she walks into the elevator....why would anyone press all the buttons immediately walking into an elevator...at that point she doesn't appear alarmed or scared....
This makes me think she is hallucinating... Her odd behaviour including paranoia in the elevator may be from the hallucinations....

2. From the info that has been made available by LE and sleuthing posted by netizens.... Why and how did the body end up in the tank?

Great sleuthing everyone! Thoughts?

I think other then pressing multiple buttons, when she first entered she seems perfectly normal...not scared...not nervous...nothing just fine.

I really really think she is on an ambien sleepwalk. And for anyone who says she doesn't look like she could be under the influence of anything because she is too steady on her feet....do NOT understand what someone acts like on ambien.

The reason I think ambien is because her actions are deliberate....yet they don't seem to make much sense to us when watching it. When people sleep walk on ambien they usually have something they are trying to accomplish in their mind, even if it doesn't fit the reality that s going on around them, it makes sense to them, to them they are doing something logical. They will appear sort if normal, can carry on a conversation, though in the conversation you will realize they are not making perfect sense. But to themselves their logic is perfect.

There have been people on ambien who woke up, had a late night food craving, drove to a drive through, came home, ate the food, went back to bed. And woke up in the morning to find dings on their car, and wrappers in their trash, and no memory of driving, at all! Yet in their ambien state that sequence of events was not only neccasary bu logical to them.

If you do not think elisa lam was likely on ambien in this video, because she doesn't seem "that" messed up to be drugged, then one does NOT understand how ambien can effect people.

To me the weirdest part of the video is when she pushes buttons for the second time, pushes many, and without waiting for anything, just exits the elevator to the left and is out of sight.

I don't think she was scared by someone else, if she was why would she walk in, push buttons, and just walk out? If she's scared someone was following her, why would she just walk out like that, casually, immediately after pushing so many buttons.

Again I think ambien, for whatever reason, this whole sequence of events was making sense to her. I think she was confused why the elevator wasnt shutting, but wasnt realizing she was causing it not to shut. Because her state of mind was focused on her ambien induced agenda and not totally in the reality of the present.

Do I think she walked to the roof and climbed into a tank in this state....no, not really.....but I'd be willing to bet she caught the attention of someone who took advantage of her ambien induced state if mind.
 
The toxicology results likely are needed to explain why she ended up in the tank and to explain her odd behaviour in the elevator.... I still think there is a probability that it was freak accident.... Time will tell...

Ok, but still the initial autopsy would have been able to reveal that the cause (not manner) of death was drowning if she had entered that tank alive. And as far as we know it did not.
 
Ok, but still the initial autopsy would have been able to reveal that the cause (not manner) of death was drowning if she had entered that tank alive. And as far as we know it did not.

Oh oh oh ! I think I've got it ! Oops, sorry to alarm , not what happened necessarily . BUT I just had a thought about the autopsy unable to determine COD and wanting to wait on tox results ! Some med, especially valium, cause the lungs to become sedate. It's used in concert with other drugs during surgery / anesthestic ? Here's where I will need some help . Could someone have slipped her valium and if she did go into tank ( whether on her own or forced there) her lungs not APPEAR as if drowning occurred after the fact because they were SO SEDATED, they no longer react the same way as what a coroner was looking for as far as determining drowning or not ? I'm afraid that made no sense.
Rephrasing question.... Can drowning be determined definitively when looking at the lungs IF the person has had a BIG dose of valium? ( or some similar drug)

Thank you Think Hard, I am I am ! :)

Few years back someone I know OD'd on valium. Virtually in a comatose state and was literally DROWNING, the dr said , of Carbon Dioxide . So very little lung function was taking place that the normal process of breathing IN oxygen and breahing OUT carbon dioxide was not happening ...... the breaths were so shallow and far apart that a buildup of carbon dioxide was in the body and became a poison. Ugh , a real nightmare.
 
Oh oh oh ! I think I've got it ! Oops, sorry to alarm , not what happened necessarily . BUT I just had a thought about the autopsy unable to determine COD and wanting to wait on tox results ! Some med, especially valium, cause the lungs to become sedate. It's used in concert with other drugs during surgery / anesthestic ? Here's where I will need some help . Could someone have slipped her valium and if she did go into tank ( whether on her own or forced there) her lungs not APPEAR as if drowning occurred after the fact because they were SO SEDATED, they no longer react the same way as what a coroner was looking for as far as determining drowning or not ? I'm afraid that made no sense.
Rephrasing question.... Can drowning be determined definitively when looking at the lungs IF the person has had a BIG dose of valium? ( or some similar drug).

Snipped, thank you.

This link may shed some light on drowning given that no medical members present atm.

http://netk.net.au/Reports/DiagnosticsofDrowning.asp

Quote from above link: The best chance of making the diagnosis of drowning is when the body is not affected by putrefaction.
 
Ok, but still the initial autopsy would have been able to reveal that the cause (not manner) of death was drowning if she had entered that tank alive. And as far as we know it did not.
If a person had been in the water all that time, would the drugs, alcohol or medication still be able to be measured in the blood accurately?
 
Oh oh oh ! I think I've got it ! Oops, sorry to alarm , not what happened necessarily . BUT I just had a thought about the autopsy unable to determine COD and wanting to wait on tox results ! Some med, especially valium, cause the lungs to become sedate. It's used in concert with other drugs during surgery / anesthestic ? Here's where I will need some help . Could someone have slipped her valium and if she did go into tank ( whether on her own or forced there) her lungs not APPEAR as if drowning occurred after the fact because they were SO SEDATED, they no longer react the same way as what a coroner was looking for as far as determining drowning or not ? I'm afraid that made no sense.
Rephrasing question.... Can drowning be determined definitively when looking at the lungs IF the person has had a BIG dose of valium? ( or some similar drug)

Thank you Think Hard, I am I am ! :)

Few years back someone I know OD'd on valium. Virtually in a comatose state and was literally DROWNING, the dr said , of Carbon Dioxide . So very little lung function was taking place that the normal process of breathing IN oxygen and breahing OUT carbon dioxide was not happening ...... the breaths were so shallow and far apart that a buildup of carbon dioxide was in the body and became a poison. Ugh , a real nightmare.

Very interesting....

I'm also pretty sure that when a dead body is in water for a time, the internal bacterial go wild, releasing very similar gases....which can cause refloat......

Could explain why they are so uncertain about how she died.

The thing with Valium is its a sedative, and usually makes you tired and heavy....Are you thinking she took it and made it up there on her own? I think Valium would impair her coordination...

....or could someone else have put her in their when she was in this severe Valium state....causing the already weird lung issues .... And further confusing autopsy results?
 
To paraphrase what I see in your link ( TKS by the way ) it seems they never claim a drowning UNTIL running a toxi because many drug overdoses can look similar to drowning as far as how the lungs appear in autopsy ! Mooo of paraphrasing !
 
Very interesting....

I'm also pretty sure that when a dead body is in water for a time, the internal bacterial go wild, releasing very similar gases....which can cause refloat......

Could explain why they are so uncertain about how she died.

The thing with Valium is its a sedative, and usually makes you tired and heavy....Are you thinking she took it and made it up there on her own? I think Valium would impair her coordination...

....or could someone else have put her in their when she was in this severe Valium state....causing the already weird lung issues .... And further confusing autopsy results?

I am not thinking about how she got into the tank. I can only focus on one tiny thing at once :) . I am just speculating about the failure of ME to say drowning PENDING toxi reports. I'm further speculating that if she had drugs , by her own hand or someone elses', that it might have impaired lung function. Honestly that could be the COD itself.... you could be alive and so drugged that you dont' realize you're drowning in water enough to wake up and swim. Hmmmm

As horrible as it sounds, I can say this .. if that is what happened to Elisa, she felt no pain and had no worrisome thought about her circumstances. IMHO defo.
 
Wow, I've officially given up on trying to keep up with this thread, lol. So many theories and questions are being repeated now. It would be nice if LE could make some kind of public comment. It's going to be a long 6-8 weeks....:aktion1:
 
If a person had been in the water all that time, would the drugs, alcohol or medication still be able to be measured in the blood accurately?

I don't know...which is why tox results might still be inconclusive. Presumably because she would not have had a chance to remove these toxins from her body, the might still be able to culture their presence in tissue, like liver tissue.

But culture tissue for the presence of toxins is a lot more complicated then a blood sample, which is why they take so long.

I hope they are able to conclude something, but after 3 weeks, the trace amounts that might be there may not be conclusive enough.
 
A diagnosis of drowning cannot be made without a complete autopsy and full toxicologic screening, histologic analyses of all organs including the lungs, and the diatom test. The diagnosis of drowning cannot be based solely on the circumstances of the death, nonspecific anatomic findings, and the results of biologic analyses. (Payne-James, Busuittil and Smock at p250)
It emerges that the investigation must be carried out without any preconceived idea that because a body has been found in water drowning is the cause of death. The examinations must, therefore, include a detailed examination of the clothing and the body for marks.
At autopsy, the lungs of a drowning victim commonly resemble those seen in deaths associated with severe pulmonary edema, as in cases of arteriosclerotic heart disease. (Spitz and Fisher at p 353)
The presence of pulmonary edema is of no help, as it might be present in drug overdoses, heart failure or drowning

http://netk.net.au/Reports/DiagnosticsofDrowning.asp

Link from Think Hard, tks again
 
A diagnosis of drowning cannot be made without a complete autopsy and full toxicologic screening, histologic analyses of all organs including the lungs, and the diatom test. The diagnosis of drowning cannot be based solely on the circumstances of the death, nonspecific anatomic findings, and the results of biologic analyses. (Payne-James, Busuittil and Smock at p250)
It emerges that the investigation must be carried out without any preconceived idea that because a body has been found in water drowning is the cause of death. The examinations must, therefore, include a detailed examination of the clothing and the body for marks.
At autopsy, the lungs of a drowning victim commonly resemble those seen in deaths associated with severe pulmonary edema, as in cases of arteriosclerotic heart disease. (Spitz and Fisher at p 353)
The presence of pulmonary edema is of no help, as it might be present in drug overdoses, heart failure or drowning

http://netk.net.au/Reports/DiagnosticsofDrowning.asp

Link from Think Hard, tks again

Lets add a little something to that:

1.) Diatoma tests determine, where the water comes from. Severe pulmonary edema caused by drug overdoses or certain heart diseases logically have no diatomae (algae) in the water.

2.) All those rules basically consider a relative fresh body. Depending on the degree of decomposition, not all tests can be performed or make still sense. What holds a lung tight and therefore the water in it, is all soft tissue. Which goes early in decomposition processes. Leaving holes. Water flows through holes and mixes with water already in those organs, for example lungs. Or just fill the empty room if there was no water in it. Once this point is reached, any conclusion about drowning is more or less educated guess.
 
Brought over from the last thread:
Buckeye_lady said:
Also, they're probably using the water from those unlocked water tanks to shoot drugs and if they're reusing needles and syringes, that contamination is also going into hotel and other building's water supplies.

Respectfully, there are a two things I disagree with here. TB is not transmitted through water contamination. It is aerosolized via coughing, sneezing and spitting and inhaled by someone else for transmission to occur. It's not a bloodbourne pathogen situation. Also, I can't see a junkie screwing around trying to get into an 8ft water cistern to get a teaspoon of water to shoot up with unless they were living up there and had set up a bucket system or something.
 
I don't think we're allowed to post links to people who aren't confirmed to be persons of interest in the case.

But I remember seeing that Vimeo account linked to before, and it freaked me out a little. I couldn't watch the videos (too creeped out) but there were video titles like 'waiting for the elevator' and 'secretly my hands tell messages'? Yet they were from a year ago

Maybe I'm a big scaredy cat but I'm afraid to click on those links now

edit: I clicked on the Tumblr just to peek at the titles and see if it was the same thing, be warned that on the second page of the blog some of the videos auto-play themselves. It gave me a scare and I closed it quickly. It looks as though some of the videos may have explicit content, given the tags. This is all so messed up :(

That person (maker of the "creepy" Vimeo videos) is a somewhat well known artist and performer. He makes weird short cell phone videos. Weird and creepy is his thing.
 
I do not understand why people keep thinking there is any possibility this is suicide.

In order for it to be suicide Elisa Lam would have had to have been alive when she went into that tank. She would have died of drowning. This would have been IMMEDIATELY obvious to a medical examiner. She would have had lungs filled with water. And the autopsy would have shed some light on to this fact.

The fact the autopsy report so far has revealed nothing and that they NEED toxology results to determine cause of death, tells us she was already dead when her body entered that tank.

I am confident we can rule out suicide or accidental death. None of it adds up. All other cases of bodies being found in water tanks that I have seen discussed were murders. Also she didn't have any clothes on which would point to a sexual crime or at least an attempted one.

If she was depressed and suicidal she could have just jumped off the roof. If she was psychotic, drugged, or in some sort of troubled state I believe it would have been very difficult for her to get access to the roof alone and be aware that the water tanks were indeed just that and then climb in. Just a huge stretch for me.

This was her first stay at the hotel. She would have needed an employee to open the door to the roof or have an employee/long time guest show her another way to the roof. Someone helped her up there, forced her up there, or took her up there. She was not alone on the roof.
 
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