Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%

  • Total voters
    1,173
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exactly...he went straight for it. any wealthy business person who knows to get a lawyer asap also knows better than to disturb the find, even back then. he did seem to be in a hurry to leave, like time was up lets get this show on the road.

I think JR began to worry about JB in the basement. I have always felt that the Rs expected that the police would eventually leave, and they'd be allowed to remain in the house. After LE left, I think they figured they would bring her up from the basement, call police and say "They left her on the porch - DEAD- because we were warned not to call police and we did". But they realized that LE was never going to allow them to remain in the house, so as soon as Arndt inadvertently gave JR the opportunity, he went straight to the basement and "found" her. I believe when Arndt lost track of JR at some point that morning, he was likely in the basement moving the body a little closer to the door. The livor mortis pattern on the body meant that she was placed flat on her back, legs out straight, within 20 minutes of death. After livor became "fixed", she could have been moved and there would be no further evidence of it.
The rigor mortis also determined that she was placed on her back, legs straight out, soon after death and that is how she remained. Some people have speculated that she may have been in the suitcase, or in the basement freezer, or hidden somewhere else. But rigor starts to form relatively soon after death, though it takes 12 hours to reach full rigor. Had she been bent, folded, or curled up in any way right after her death, the livor and rigor mortis pattern would have shown that.
 
I think JR began to worry about JB in the basement. I have always felt that the Rs expected that the police would eventually leave, and they'd be allowed to remain in the house. After LE left, I think they figured they would bring her up from the basement, call police and say "They left her on the porch - DEAD- because we were warned not to call police and we did". But they realized that LE was never going to allow them to remain in the house, so as soon as Arndt inadvertently gave JR the opportunity, he went straight to the basement and "found" her. I believe when Arndt lost track of JR at some point that morning, he was likely in the basement moving the body a little closer to the door. The livor mortis pattern on the body meant that she was placed flat on her back, legs out straight, within 20 minutes of death. After livor became "fixed", she could have been moved and there would be no further evidence of it.
The rigor mortis also determined that she was placed on her back, legs straight out, soon after death and that is how she remained. Some people have speculated that she may have been in the suitcase, or in the basement freezer, or hidden somewhere else. But rigor starts to form relatively soon after death, though it takes 12 hours to reach full rigor. Had she been bent, folded, or curled up in any way right after her death, the livor and rigor mortis pattern would have shown that.

that is entirely plausible. i always wondered about the arms straight overhead too.

did either of them have a tendency to fly into a rage?
 
I've heard so many excuses made up by some IDI's about the pineapple and the prior sexual abuse. For the pineapple, they say that it could really be the cooked crab that she ate at the Whites', or that she ate it prior to going to the Whites' house or right after they got home but no one noticed. And I've seen them disregard the prior sexual abuse because JonBenet was an outgoing child who would have told her Mom if someone was abusing her.
 
I've heard so many excuses made up by some IDI's about the pineapple and the prior sexual abuse. For the pineapple, they say that it could really be the cooked crab that she ate at the Whites', or that she ate it prior to going to the Whites' house or right after they got home but no one noticed. And I've seen them disregard the prior sexual abuse because JonBenet was an outgoing child who would have told her Mom if someone was abusing her.
IDI can spin the pineapple all they want, it is what it is. She had pineapple just a couple of hours before she died - there's no disputing that.

I'm not so sure they are wrong about JonBenet probably telling Patsy - but Patsy may not have believed her - not uncommon, as you already know, for mothers to go into denial mode when their children claim they are being abused (usually when the claim involves the parent's spouse or significant other).
 
I've heard so many excuses made up by some IDI's about the pineapple and the prior sexual abuse. For the pineapple, they say that it could really be the cooked crab that she ate at the Whites', or that she ate it prior to going to the Whites' house or right after they got home but no one noticed. And I've seen them disregard the prior sexual abuse because JonBenet was an outgoing child who would have told her Mom if someone was abusing her.

The contents of JB's small intestine (into which the stomach empties) was found to be PINEAPPLE that matched the pineapple in the bowl on the table. It was tested and found to be identical, down to the rind. The TRUTH is out there on these matters- it is just that people do not do the research. It was NOT cracked crab. Whatever JB may have eaten that day had been digested and was probably represented by the "soft green fecal material" found at the autopsy farther down in the digestive tract. From a medical point of view, when food is eaten, it goes into the stomach first, then to the small intestine. The pineapple took about 2 hours to get to the small intestine from the time it was eaten.
Food does NOT "leap frog" over other food in the digestive process, meaning that the pineapple was the LAST thing she ate, and it was not eaten at the White's. It came from THE BOWL on the dining area table. This means that the pineapple was NOT eaten earlier in the day before she went to the White's.
All metabolic processes STOP at death. No further digestion takes place at that point. The body does not continue to digest food after death, and it does NOT continue to move through the digestive tract. That is a FACT, I don't care HOW IDI tries to spin it.
She ate that pineapple from THAT bowl about 2 hours before she died, and the stage of rigor mortis indicates she had been dead about 12 hours when JR brought her up from the basement at 1 pm the afternoon of the 26th, placing her death at (approx) 12 midnight- 1 am. She ate the pineapple at approx 10 pm, which actually fits right in with the time the R admit to arriving home (they said around 9:30 pm) allowing for getting her ready for bed- a bedtime snack of pineapple around 10 pm (give or take 30 minutes or so) is just about right.
 
that is entirely plausible. i always wondered about the arms straight overhead too.

did either of them have a tendency to fly into a rage?

In her autopsy picture, she seems to be laying on her side with her arms to the side. I know I read somewhere that John had put her arms up before carrying her upstairs.

Looking at the autopsy photo of JonBenet's neck, I still wonder about the red mark below her chin.
http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html
Patsy first said JonBenet had the red turtleneck on, and then said she didn't. Could Patsy have been so upset that she was choking JonBenet with the shirt, twisting it and making the knuckle or ring mark from the pressure...and then banged her head hard on the counter? After taking the shirt off she sees the red marks on JonBenet's neck and those marks become the catalyst for the garrote staging.
 
In her autopsy picture, she seems to be laying on her side with her arms to the side. I know I read somewhere that John had put her arms up before carrying her upstairs.

Looking at the autopsy photo of JonBenet's neck, I still wonder about the red mark below her chin.
http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html
Patsy first said JonBenet had the red turtleneck on, and then said she didn't. Could Patsy have been so upset that she was choking JonBenet with the shirt, twisting it and making the knuckle or ring mark from the pressure...and then banged her head hard on the counter? After taking the shirt off she sees the red marks on JonBenet's neck and those marks become the catalyst for the garrote staging.

How could John have put her arms up into that position above her head , rigor mortis had set in. I have not read anywhere that he did that.

It's possible about the marks on the neck but wouldn't they have still been there? the cord of the garrote was quite thin and dug deep into the neck, I'm not sure it would have covered the marks from a strangulation? although it may have done. You say she may have "banged her head hard on the counter" - she would have had to use extreme force to produce the sort of injury that was found to the skull.
 
The contents of JB's small intestine (into which the stomach empties) was found to be PINEAPPLE that matched the pineapple in the bowl on the table. It was tested and found to be identical, down to the rind. The TRUTH is out there on these matters- it is just that people do not do the research. It was NOT cracked crab. Whatever JB may have eaten that day had been digested and was probably represented by the "soft green fecal material" found at the autopsy farther down in the digestive tract. From a medical point of view, when food is eaten, it goes into the stomach first, then to the small intestine. The pineapple took about 2 hours to get to the small intestine from the time it was eaten.
Food does NOT "leap frog" over other food in the digestive process, meaning that the pineapple was the LAST thing she ate, and it was not eaten at the White's. It came from THE BOWL on the dining area table. This means that the pineapple was NOT eaten earlier in the day before she went to the White's.
All metabolic processes STOP at death. No further digestion takes place at that point. The body does not continue to digest food after death, and it does NOT continue to move through the digestive tract. That is a FACT, I don't care HOW IDI tries to spin it.
She ate that pineapple from THAT bowl about 2 hours before she died, and the stage of rigor mortis indicates she had been dead about 12 hours when JR brought her up from the basement at 1 pm the afternoon of the 26th, placing her death at (approx) 12 midnight- 1 am. She ate the pineapple at approx 10 pm, which actually fits right in with the time the R admit to arriving home (they said around 9:30 pm) allowing for getting her ready for bed- a bedtime snack of pineapple around 10 pm (give or take 30 minutes or so) is just about right.

This is the first I have heard about the pineapple being tested from the bowl and matched to the pineapple in the stomach , where did you get that information from??
 
This is the first I have heard about the pineapple being tested from the bowl and matched to the pineapple in the stomach , where did you get that information from??
ST said it.

Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn’t canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 215
 
How could John have put her arms up into that position above her head , rigor mortis had set in. I have not read anywhere that he did that.

It's possible about the marks on the neck but wouldn't they have still been there? the cord of the garrote was quite thin and dug deep into the neck, I'm not sure it would have covered the marks from a strangulation? although it may have done. You say she may have "banged her head hard on the counter" - she would have had to use extreme force to produce the sort of injury that was found to the skull.

Rigor mortis forms slowly, builds over 12 hours (approx) remains in full force for another 12 hours, and then dissipates over 12 hours at which point wet decomposition (putrefaction) begins.
The exact position of JB's arms have long been a source of confusion. Only 2 people know for sure- JR and FW, who ALONE saw her body in situ in the wineceller.
There is an illustration (drawing) of her body that was NOT made by actually looking at her, showing her arms STRAIGHT UP over her head. They were NOT in this position. There is a crime scene photo showing JB's body on the living room rug. It depicts her arms bent at the elbow and up in front of her at approx chin level, if you can imaging the way a boxer holds his arms up in front of him. You can just see part of her hands in the brown paper bags (standard procedure) placed on her by the coroner's assistant.
One thing for people not familiar with the process of rigor mortis- it can pull the body into odd (and sometimes grotesque) positions, and the joints of the knees and elbows are particularly prone to this. JB's body was already in full rigor by the time she was brought up from the basement, and it is entirely possible that her arms had been in a different position originally and pulled into that position by rigor. They COULD have been originally straight over her head when she was placed in the wineceller BUT (this is very important) ONLY the person(s) who PUT HER IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE would know that. Because by the time JR brought her up, they were already bent at the elbow. Her parents CLAIMED not to have seen her after they put her to bed in her room until she was brought upstairs. If JR described her as having her arms up over her head, it was because that is the way he LAST saw her- on the floor of the wineceller, where she was left- and NOT the way she looked when he "found" her the next day
 
current opinion (still a lot to read up on though)--JR did it, PR helped in cover up thus all the "undoing stuff".
 
I voted that they are involved. I don't think they are only "somewhat" involved but completely. Each Ramsey is involved to a degree. I don't think there was an intruder. My possible scenarios are as follow (in no particular order):

1. Burke killed JB and his parents covered it up.
2. JB was being abused by Jon and he killed her by strangulation, got Patsy to cover-up for him and told Burke to keep his mouth shut.
3. Patsy got mad and accidentally killers JB and made it look like an intruder molested and killed her.
4. Both Patsy and Job were sexually abusing her and they either accidentally killed her by strangulation OR they decided that this couldn't go on, and killed her so JB could not tell anyone.
5. JB was involved in some sort of pedophile ring, with the parents knowledge. This isn't an original idea... I think I read it on this forum while I was still a lurker.

I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that the Ramsey's are 100% innocent. Most of the evidence seems to point at them.
#2 is my theory!
 
I never said she was not sexually assaulted. My point was not whether or not she was sexually assaulted, my point was the molestation doesn't fit the violence of the attack if that was, indeed, what the attacker was after. I believe the sexual assault on JONBENET RAMSEY the night she died was staging and that belief has absolutely nothing to do with you or any other survivor of abuse.

Please read more carefully before you attack.

wecht was on blogtalkradio recently and discussed that this could be an unintentional death due to whateverthename is for a kinky sex turnon with strangulation.

i also disagree with his theory and think it was a brutal attack.
 
aside from evidence, i'm curious about the behaviors since that night. who of the ramsey's had the upper hand in their relationship? who held the power over the others? and why?
 
And is the bedwetting that big of a deal? My daughter had some bedwetting problems even into her teens and I can tell you she was never molested. She just slept really hard. Sorry for all the amateur questions, I just want to understand.

Glad to help out, then. You see, for some of us, it's not so much the bedwetting itself that sends us in that direction. It's a lot of different things. True, by itself, bedwetting doesn't mean much. But in this case, it had gotten worse to the point where JB was soiling her bed as well, and wetting herself during the day.
 
There was a personal back and forth exchange in here that I removed. If it isn't done and over with when I get back, time outs will be issued. :nono:
 
Question: If JonBenet went to her regular doctor, WHY would he be examining a 6 year old's vaginal area?? That in and of itself is very strange indeed. The only reason I can think of is Was there a concern from someone that JB had possibly been molested? Did JB herself say something to that effect? It doesn't seem likely that either of these scenarios took place. So why was the GP looking down there?


Hmmm...could any vaginal examinations that Dr. might have been doing been in any way a result of the incontinence JonBenet had to contend with, or the results of that incontinence?

Just how in-depth were these vaginal exams? A quick visual peek of the outside area, enough to see the next infection on JB's skin in what Patsy said was a frequent occurrence? Probably. I seriously doubt it went so far as involve implements used on adult women.

This is what infuriates me the most about the Ramsey case - the needless suffering JonBenet had to endure.

If JonBenet had so many infections and Patsy knew it, even said they were hard to clear up because she always wet, WHY didn't Patsy take her to a specialist? Patsy brags about how incredible the health insurance the Rs have is in DOI - why wasn't that totally awesome amount of insurance going towards helping JonBenet stay infection-free?

Why haven't Dr. Beuf's notes ever been released?

Why did Patsy call Beuf's office three times in one hour, only to later conveniently forget why?

Why did JonBenet visit the school nurse on three consecutive Mondays in December, in the weeks just before she was murdered?

What are they HIDING? WHY???

I have to agree that either Burke or Patsy would have been the most likely culprits, but it just makes me nauseous. Did Burke have some sort of explosive disorder? And is the bedwetting that big of a deal? My daughter had some bedwetting problems even into her teens and I can tell you she was never molested. She just slept really hard. Sorry for all the amateur questions, I just want to understand.

Patsy often downplayed JB's incontinence as bed-wetting, but in JB's situation, it had gone far beyond mere bed-wetting.

While Patsy did say that if she didn't wake JonBenet up around midnight to use the bathroom, she may end up wet by morning, but she also told a friend of hers named Pam Griffin that (from PMPT, hb, page 94) "JonBenet often waited until an emergency was imminent and as a result, was still having accidents."

Bed-wetting is one thing; wetting one's self at age 6 while wide awake was another. Accident? Every now and then, sure. But...later on that same page we learn:

"Patsy complained that JonBenet had frequent infections that were hard to clear up because her underpants were always wet."

Accidents are one thing, but how many accidents does one little girl have to have before it turns not only into an infection, but an infection that is hard to clear up - because the child being treated is still sitting in wet underwear...? What mother just ignores her 6 yr old daughter having to endure that as normal, everyday, average, nothing to really be concerned about (which is how Patsy downplays it post-murder)?

The skin on that area of the body is so sensitive, especially on a child. It must have been so uncomfortable for JonBenet, and then remember she's only 6. She needed an adult to help her with it, because that is just beyond the scope of what a 6 yr old can do for herself. Having to drop her clothes and sit exposed just to let anyone look at it to help her with it, much less have to treat it, must have been at the very least uncomfortable in embarrassment alone for JB...not to mention how sore it would have been.

And then figure in how BPD said the underwear they found searching JonBenet's drawers showed that almost every pair had stains of soiling. If I may quote and link:


Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence%20of%20Prior%20Sexual%20Abuse


So Jonbenet wasn't just wetting the bed every now and then at night...she was wetting herself during the day as well, and sat around in soaking wet underwear so often that it created what her mother referred to as "frequent infections that were hard to clear up from always being in wet underpants".

And then we also know that the sex abuse expert from BPD discovered Jonbenet's underwear were stained with fecal soiling.

So she's got frequent infections from being wet and/or soiled either during the day or night or both, and it's just some bed-wetting?

No. IMO, something in JonBenet's life was extremely wrong, and the toileting issues were her best way to try to communicate how badly she was being abused. Nothing about the entire situation with the soiling or toileting issues is any way normal or average, when you compare the life JonBenet lived to the lives other children live. In any other child, no one would argue such issues denote abuse - but for some reason, the Rs are exempt, no matter how obvious it is to everyone, including the Rs.

IMO, Patsy knew JonBenet's toileting issues were the manifestation of the abuse JonBenet went through on a regular basis, and that's why she ignored them and tried to deny any of it ever existed to the full scope that it did. Sexual and physical abuse. And both JR and PR knew, cause they were each part of it. They covered up for each other, because both were equally as guilty in one way or another. IMO.
 
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