k4kathy
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Thank you for sharing this information. I'm sure a lot of reader's will find this post useful.
Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #10 *Arrest*
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k4kathy
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Joe, I agree with your opinion. Do you think they could be waiting on some type of forensic results from evidence collected from the impounded vehicles as well?
I might even say "unfortunately cause of death has yet to be made public"
k4kathy
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This is only a speculation, but judging from the photo's, I think CC was dumped very close to where her body was taken out of the water. The location appears to be very close to the road and the concrete surrounding that area by the water looks to be slightly slopped. From what I understand, there isn't a lot of current in this water to cause the body to move much, not to mention the fact that her body didn't ever float up to the surface of the water, which would definitely point to the possibility that her body was somehow weighted down.
I'm speculating that who ever dumped her body in that water knew this certain area well. I think it was a " think fast " solution to hiding the body.
k4kathy
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I wonder if CC's sister had made plans for her sleepover days in advance or if it was a last minute thing.
Also, it seems like a lot of perp's tend to grab whats handy to conceal/transport their victim to another location for disposal.... trash bag, laundry bag, suitecase, blanket, etc.
If there is a blanket involved, which I believe there was, I feel like this indicates that this crime was committed inside the house.
Could be the blanket was right there... who knows, already underneath the victim..how handy is that??? Then again, the perp might have felt too guilty not to "at least" wrap the body... you know, out of "respect" and all
Could be the body was wrapped in a blanket to avoid leaving evidence. And a number of liquid/bodily substances could have possibly been contained by using a blanket. Not a pleasant thought, but nothing about this little girls death is.
Also, it seems like a lot of perp's tend to grab whats handy to conceal/transport their victim to another location for disposal.... trash bag, laundry bag, suitecase, blanket, etc.
If there is a blanket involved, which I believe there was, I feel like this indicates that this crime was committed inside the house.
Could be the blanket was right there... who knows, already underneath the victim..how handy is that??? Then again, the perp might have felt too guilty not to "at least" wrap the body... you know, out of "respect" and all
Could be the body was wrapped in a blanket to avoid leaving evidence. And a number of liquid/bodily substances could have possibly been contained by using a blanket. Not a pleasant thought, but nothing about this little girls death is.
Chris_Texas
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From having known dozens or perhaps hundreds of kids who consider themselves Juggalos (I don't really want to go into HOW and WHY I have known so many) I would offer a second opinion. See below...
Shock value. There has probably never been a time, and certainly not for over a hundred years, that some musical artists and styles have not pushed the envelope in an effort to appeal to a younger generation while horrifying the old. Jazz was horrible to the respectable adults at the time, Buddy Holly and his barely noticable movements while performing were shocking, Elvis was considered damn near obscene, and so it goes with the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and KISS and Blue Oyster Cult and Ozzy and White Zombie and Marylin Manson and on and on. Rock and Roll was devil music, Punk Rock was for street criminals, Rap is for gangsters and hoodlums. It's ALWAYS this way.
The ICP (Insane Clown Posse) thing is interesting. First, they are widely mocked and ridiculed by most young people -- this is IMPORTANT to keep in mind as it is a crucial element of their appeal to their particular target demographic.
The TYPICAL ICP fan, or Juggalo, is an outcast, or at the least someone who does not feel like they fit in well with their peers. MANY have troubled or broken homes. Fifteen years ago many of them likely would have been "Goth," and instead of a T-shirt with a hatchet (the ICP logo) and perhaps clown makeup, they would have been wearing eye liner, a stupid haircut, and a trenchcoat. But the band's message is inclusion, all outcasts are welcome:
ICP - lets go all the way - YouTube
Like pretty much any youth "identity," a key ingredient is empowerment, and as is often the case, empowerment through fear. In ICP's case, their musical style is rap, and as we all know, to rural white folks and wonderbread soccer moms, rap is some seriously scary stuff. It's the same kind of music black hoodlums listen to, oh my! And with ICP you have all that, AND scary clowns, AND their logo which is like a murder weapon. Can you say SPOOKY! In other words, pretty typical teen angst and rebellion. Again, fifteen years ago most of these same kids would have been hanging around together in black trenchcoats trying their best to look scary and dark and deep.
Nor is their really any reason to believe that this particular demographic is any more inclined to violence than any other coming from a similar socio-economic background. The 1980's kid from a broken home, with his pentagram T-Shirt and listening to Ozzy, was also likely to hang with other's like him, do some drugs, break the law, get in fights, all that.
The other critical difference to keep in mind ANY time you are talking about young people today can be summed up in one word:
INTERNET.
Most adults simply fail to understand how significant this change has been (you can even see it here on this forum at times). Today's kids have the internet, or their friends do, and they have seen it ALL, and in high def video. (Note to parents: I am not referring to your kid; he or she is an innocent cherub who thinks bad things only happen in movies and babies come from a Stork -- I was talking about other people's kids.) They are posting on 4chan, they are watching decapitation videos, they have seen carnage so extreme that the authorities wouldn't have shown it in the Driver's Ed movies when we were in high school. They know more about sex at twelve than I did when I was twenty. Whatever the topic, whatever they are curious about, they've seen the pictures, they've seen the movies, they've joked about it.
Wanna know the real reason the whole anti-gay fight is over? Compared to the stuff today's kids have seen and joked about, the idea of two guys or two girls getting it on is as unshocking as putting gas in your car or eating a Cheeseburger on a friday. Shocking, to these kids, is stomping kittens, lighting them on fire, and posting a video -- that shocks them -- two guys making out not so much.
Which brings me back to ICP and the scary (to adults) kids that follow them. They are no more a "gang" than the Preps or Jocks or Stoners were when I was in school. They are no more inclined to violence or murder -- though it would please them to no end to have you believe otherwise. They are nothing more or less than one group of outcast kids of the internet age, and if their behavior seems at times a bit out there keep it in perspective.
Chris_Texas
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A Few Quick Notes On the Above Post:
* It is all generalities based upon my experience working with young people in a couple different capacities.
* Your kids are nothing at all like I described, and as a parent you monitor their internet useage and their friends and all that. I am sure you are correct, so there is no reason to discuss it.
* Another important thing to keep in mind whenever we discuss young people today is the world that they live in. Obviously, I touched briefly on the internet.
There is another critical ingredient. The economy. While the wholesale exportation of American jobs, and with it the steady erosion of middle and blue collar working class, has been going on since the early 90's at the least (largely unnoticed by the media thanks to a series of bubbles) the crash we are all familiar with that began this great recession, started with the housing crash in 2007. And while we all talk about the extinction of the middle class, the even greater devistration it caused the poor, and the unprecedented chasm that now exists between the wealthy and everyone else, we rarely talk about what effect this has had on young people.
Someone that was sixteen years old in 2007 is twenty today. They finished high school in a time when there were no jobs, and for many college went from a dream to an impossibility. Even for those solidly in the middle class who did manage to go to college, many are graduating to discover that their education is worth a part-time job at McDonald's (America's second largest employer following Walmart at number one). Most are finding employment difficult or impossible to get, many are still living at home with parents who are often balanced on the edge of bankrupsy and total financial ruin. They have no future to look forward to, no hope for things to improve. Their future looks like some dark post-apocolyptic nightmare, and the poorer they are the worst things apear. These are young people, even kids Celina's age, who can not only imagine but anticipate poverty, homelessness, hunger. Many, a shocking number, MILLIONS, have already experienced it themselves. They are inheriting a nightmare, and they know it, and often they really don't much give a ^%&@ about the values of a society that has failed them.
So when you look at the behavior of young people today, consider their REALITY, the world they live in, the things they know.
Nuff said.
* It is all generalities based upon my experience working with young people in a couple different capacities.
* Your kids are nothing at all like I described, and as a parent you monitor their internet useage and their friends and all that. I am sure you are correct, so there is no reason to discuss it.
* Another important thing to keep in mind whenever we discuss young people today is the world that they live in. Obviously, I touched briefly on the internet.
There is another critical ingredient. The economy. While the wholesale exportation of American jobs, and with it the steady erosion of middle and blue collar working class, has been going on since the early 90's at the least (largely unnoticed by the media thanks to a series of bubbles) the crash we are all familiar with that began this great recession, started with the housing crash in 2007. And while we all talk about the extinction of the middle class, the even greater devistration it caused the poor, and the unprecedented chasm that now exists between the wealthy and everyone else, we rarely talk about what effect this has had on young people.
Someone that was sixteen years old in 2007 is twenty today. They finished high school in a time when there were no jobs, and for many college went from a dream to an impossibility. Even for those solidly in the middle class who did manage to go to college, many are graduating to discover that their education is worth a part-time job at McDonald's (America's second largest employer following Walmart at number one). Most are finding employment difficult or impossible to get, many are still living at home with parents who are often balanced on the edge of bankrupsy and total financial ruin. They have no future to look forward to, no hope for things to improve. Their future looks like some dark post-apocolyptic nightmare, and the poorer they are the worst things apear. These are young people, even kids Celina's age, who can not only imagine but anticipate poverty, homelessness, hunger. Many, a shocking number, MILLIONS, have already experienced it themselves. They are inheriting a nightmare, and they know it, and often they really don't much give a ^%&@ about the values of a society that has failed them.
So when you look at the behavior of young people today, consider their REALITY, the world they live in, the things they know.
Nuff said.
PlainJaneDoe
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Chris_Texas,
Thanks for 2 very informative posts. Wow.
Thanks for 2 very informative posts. Wow.
sreshowtime
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IMHO - ICP et al, may or may not be behind this situation..or any other....But I am a firm believer of- you keep putting Garbage in, sooner or later, based on various criteria and the individual, (http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/aggression_violence.htm) you just might get Garbage out. (All listeners of such music are not just impressionable teenagers- lots of older people have grown up with this type of music, many 'outgrew' it and others haven't...absorbing that type of mindset into their lifestyles. Those are the ones I tend to worry more about) Here is one brief on a study from 2003, in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
Violent song lyrics may lead to violent behavior
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/violent.aspx
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?...7&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=Ons25b0Zcszu8zWvr0yd_Q--
If I didn't have my file cabinets packed down I could bore you with more on the subject
me saying- "Why do people 'glorify' that stuff??" was more of a rhetorical question
but the conversation regarding such can certainly be quite enlightening and full of lively debate.
Violent song lyrics may lead to violent behavior
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/violent.aspx
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?...7&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=Ons25b0Zcszu8zWvr0yd_Q--
If I didn't have my file cabinets packed down I could bore you with more on the subject
me saying- "Why do people 'glorify' that stuff??" was more of a rhetorical question
but the conversation regarding such can certainly be quite enlightening and full of lively debate.
bstnh1
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I wonder if CC's sister had made plans for her sleepover days in advance or if it was a last minute thing.
Also, it seems like a lot of perp's tend to grab whats handy to conceal/transport their victim to another location for disposal.... trash bag, laundry bag, suitecase, blanket, etc.
If there is a blanket involved, which I believe there was, I feel like this indicates that this crime was committed inside the house.
Could be the blanket was right there... who knows, already underneath the victim..how handy is that??? Then again, the perp might have felt too guilty not to "at least" wrap the body... you know, out of "respect" and all
Could be the body was wrapped in a blanket to avoid leaving evidence. And a number of liquid/bodily substances could have possibly been contained by using a blanket. Not a pleasant thought, but nothing about this little girls death is.
If she was indeed wrapped in a blanket, I think a more likely scenario would be that the perp wrapped her in the blanket to conceal her body when he removed it from the house. Carrying a dead body out uncovered and putting it in a truck would be insanely risky.
iamnotagolem
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Sorry......allegedly....
Texsun
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I can't remember exactly when it was that AAG was doing a presser, but she choked up. I'm thinking it was after Celina was found and she knew the details. I know others have said they may doubt the wrapping because AAG nor LE has confirmed, but I firmly believe with the volume of news articles and media reports, if there was no truth, then AAG or LE would have come forth to set that info straight.
As someone else also pointed out. Ms. Jane didn't elaborate or give any detail of how the other young lady was found to be and it didn't come out until much later.
I see more and more of these cases where LE does not speak anymore. They now seem to always have a spokesperson or someone else representing them. Never hear from the actual investigators anymore.
Texsun
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Chris_Texas
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I respectfully disagree. I see no reason to believe that the body was wrapped in anything -- including clothes (naked would be suspicious right?). There have been no officials confirming this or even suggesting it. I think one media source saw her being hoisted from the water in the bodybag and backboard, they misunderstood what they were seeing and reported it as a blanket, and everyone else began quoting it as well.
As for the police clearing this misinformation up... Why would they? They gain nothing by revealing what they know. Or certainly that could be said at the time when the case still looked likely to be solved.
Today things are different, sadly. It is possible that the tox report will fill in enough holes for this case to be concluded, but I am dubious. I really do not put any faith in police statements about how many awesome clues they are following up. That stuff absolutely pegs my BS meter. If they had all these super-cool clues I don't think they would have posted a cash reward begging for help. And please, don't talk about puzzles -- if this is still a puzzle then the game is over.
Hopefully I am wrong and they have a rock solid case all but wrapped up, but I seriously doubt it. This case has always needed something concrete pointing to one or more potential killers. And with so many people having access to Celina it was always a bit of a long shot unless someone in the house said, "I saw _____ do _____!"
Pensfan
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(Respectfully)Scientific studies disagree with this opinion. Scientists have not been able to find any group of people who are immune to the negative (violent) effects of media, music or video game violence. Most of the studies that have demonstrated at least a causal link between exposure to media violence and violent behaviors.
From the following article: Research on violent television and films, video games, and music reveals unequivocal evidence that media violence increases the likelihood of aggressive and violent behavior in both immediate and long-term contexts.
http://bama.ua.edu/~sprentic/672 Anderson et al. 2003.pdf
http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/~dgentile/TOC_Intro.pdf
http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/faculty/caa/abstracts/2000-2004/01ba.ap.pdf
k4kathy
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Like I mentioned in the second sentence of my post
Joe Friday
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Bolded & Bolded By Me.
If Celina's body was not wrapped or more specifically weighted down by some means she would have more than likely floated to the surface given the time she was in the water. The gases produced by a decomposing body (unless the body is riddled with bullet holes or stab wounds) will cause the body to float. Even in cold water a body should have floated given the time from when she went missing until the time she was found. Unless she was lodged in some obstruction that prevented her from floating to the surface.
As for anyone begging for help regarding the reward money. I don't think I have gotten that feeling. I think the reward is in place to entice anyone that might have more information to come forward to strengthen the case that has already been built against the person that is involved.
JMO
k4kathy
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Texsun
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That's okay Chris, I don't mind or take offense one bit with you disagreeing w/me over possible wrapping. I liked your reply and gotta admit you did get me to thinking and smilin! You make many fantastic points and I understand and respect and I gotta say, you could be absolutely correct. IMO I do not feel that the tox will reveal anything. I believe Celina will be clean. I am speaking the Tox only. Not any other tests performed at this point. I don't believe the possible perp(s) had time, took the time, nor even the decency to medicate her prior to. I wish in my heart that maybe she might not have had to suffer! but It makes me shudder. again, thx!
Texsun
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Did we not hear something pertaining to H2O in the lungs or not to determine whether she was alive or placed there after death? I thought I did. I may be assuming, but I am sure I read, (and I did a lot of reading everywhere) shortly after the discovery, that divers or LE said she was placed there? Do you have any info or thoughts on this?
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