gitana1
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True. You may be right.
AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family
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True. You may be right.
What other statements has the father made that I've said I don't believe?
I'll believe the ASP if they say the father is factually incorrect but not until then. The article did not say the SWAT team knocked on their door or that they even spoke to the father. In fact, it states the parents were on the front porch when LE arrived.
It began on Jan. 12, when Stanley and his wife were on their front porch, and officers with the Garland County Sheriffs Department and Arkansas State Police arrived, apparently ready to raid the home.
They came out with a full SWAT team, they had snipers laying in the ditch out there, Stanley said. They had a SWAT team two miles down the road. People think, well the parents are giving drugs to their children, they should be put in jail.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ts-over-the-dangerous-miracle-supplement-mms/
gitana1
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Oh man. I don't think that's true at all. The bulk of the cases in which kids are removed from both parents for extended periods do not necessarily involve criminal charges related to the removal (abuse/neglect). I litigate child dependency cases and my parents were, and my brother is, employed by social services (County of Orange).
That's not been my experience.
Most cases of juvenile dependents involve poverty issues, addiction issues and/or mental health problems or all or a combination of all three and many of the parents who are addicted have assorted legal issues, as a result of the addiction, that often cause or add to the placement of the kids into the system. But actually being charged for whatever caused the kid to be removed? I actually haven't seen that much at all.
In fact, it seems that juvenile dependency cases are often a way to deal with neglect and sometimes abuse issues without involving the criminal justice system.
I think only about 10% or so of foster kids have a parent incarcerated, in fact, IIRC. And that would include parents of kids taken because the parent was incarcerated and there is no one to care for the kid.
No, just not any reality I've ever seen - that parents are typically arrested when kids are taken into care, due to criminal abuse or neglect charges related to the removal.
gitana1
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I'm confused. Who on here has said the system works perfectly? Didn't I already say I initially immediately believed there was a breakdown in the system and governmental overreach until an analysis of the circumstances system convinced me otherwise?
I think most people who believe there was probable cause here are critics of DCF and/or governmental overreach.
And the federal government has nothing to do with this case. I don't know of one case of political persecution motivating removal of children or criminal charges, etc., in a state that is overwhelmingly populated by the same political persuasion as the people being persecuted, and in a state where every single top elected official is on the same side of the spectrum politically as the people being persecuted and where multiple agencies staffed by people who live in the same community as the people being persecuted, all are in on the political persecution.
That is so totally illogical it makes my head spin.
Both parents:
Hal Stanley and his wife, Michelle, of Hot Springs heard a loud knock on their door on Jan. 12 only to find a crew of state and Garland County police officers standing on their porch with a search warrant. http://www.christianpost.com/news/7-...-abuse-132902/
Then weeks later, several people showed up at our door, all obviously here for the investigation and we welcomed them in.
However they desired us to step outside in order to speak privately with Hal and I and not in front of the kids. I tried to tell them it was much warmer inside and that it was nothing for the kids to go to the back of the house for us to have privacy talking. They refused and insisted on us stepping outside.
She continued: After stepping outside they issued us a search warrant and said we could not enter our house or talk to our kids until the search and the investigation was through. They said the charge was that we had a poisonous substance in our house and that the kids were being exposed to it and it endangered their welfare. http://www.wnd.com/2015/01/7-homesch...7GoWXPogw0d.99
Not how SWAT raids a home. http://people.howstuffworks.com/swat-team4.htm
I have worked for my state's DHHS and can only speak about the policies I was trained in. Police only get involved if a crime of abuse or neglect is suspected. Abuse and neglect are treated as crimes here and parents are cited if evidence is found, even if it is just a misdemeanor citation. But if no crime is found, the children don't remain in state custody for more than 48 business hours.
JMO
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Is this a case of the reports to LE not being as bad as reported? Did the children, whom I am sure have been questioned by specialists, not tell the truth? The younger children, as a rule, tell things without giving a thought to right or wrong. Has the son in college spoken to LE and told his account of living at home?
From the pictures with LE in the living area, the home looks well maintained. I did notice an organ, which is not cheap, so would assume one of the parents must play. Perhaps the organ was given to them or they bartered for it. It just sort of seemed odd to me in a house with so many children.
Please either tell us what these parents have done or let them have their children back.
My opinions only.
From the pictures with LE in the living area, the home looks well maintained. I did notice an organ, which is not cheap, so would assume one of the parents must play. Perhaps the organ was given to them or they bartered for it. It just sort of seemed odd to me in a house with so many children.
Please either tell us what these parents have done or let them have their children back.
My opinions only.
gitana1
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Wow. I believe you but that seems unusual. What happens if it is a mentally ill parent who simply can't function or care for the kid? Are they all charged or are the kids returned to a mentally ill parent who lacks the ability to provide stable care for the kids if the parent can't be charged?
I mean there are so many reasons I have seen for kids being kept in care where the police were initially called in but no criminal charges occurred.
Each state I have reviewed (of course I haven't reviewed most) has a procedure for removal into or retention into the system that does not necessitate criminal charges. Like there in Arkansas. I cited the procedure and code sections and criminal charges were not required for removal or retention at all. Only probable cause for the removal, that the children were in immediate danger and that removal or retention is necessary to prevent serious harm from his or her surroundings or from illness or injury and if parents, guardians, or others with authority to act are unavailable or have not taken action necessary to protect the juvenile from the danger.
http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2010/title-9/subtitle-3/chapter-27/subchapter-3/9-27-313/
http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2010/title-9/subtitle-3/chapter-27/subchapter-3/9-27-315/
Yoda
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Just looking into this case.
First- WOW. I just watched the interview with the older son that does not live at home. He is wise, calm, and an amazingly well spoken young man.
Second- I watched the 20 minute press release from the parents. They seemed intelligent and well spoken. From their own words, it appears that have problems raising teenagers. And mom appears disgusted by the two oldest that were at home's actions. She called it a 'betrayal'. JMO Counseling and parenting of teens classes would be helpful.
I do find it disappointing that the parents focus seemed to be on preaching 'this could happen to you'. I would think concerned, innocent parents would speak more about their innocence, how they love and miss their children, how much they want them back. Instead they speak of police tactics, this could happen to you, the children being put into public school, and betrayal.
After listening to the older son, and the fathers comment after the spanking question in the Washington post article, I think there may be some physical abuse that is happening. It might not be spanking. For some reason 'hard labor' comes to mind. Jmo
First- WOW. I just watched the interview with the older son that does not live at home. He is wise, calm, and an amazingly well spoken young man.
Second- I watched the 20 minute press release from the parents. They seemed intelligent and well spoken. From their own words, it appears that have problems raising teenagers. And mom appears disgusted by the two oldest that were at home's actions. She called it a 'betrayal'. JMO Counseling and parenting of teens classes would be helpful.
I do find it disappointing that the parents focus seemed to be on preaching 'this could happen to you'. I would think concerned, innocent parents would speak more about their innocence, how they love and miss their children, how much they want them back. Instead they speak of police tactics, this could happen to you, the children being put into public school, and betrayal.
After listening to the older son, and the fathers comment after the spanking question in the Washington post article, I think there may be some physical abuse that is happening. It might not be spanking. For some reason 'hard labor' comes to mind. Jmo
A mentally ill parent does not escape prosecution in my state if police discover evidence of child abuse or neglect in the home. That said, just because somebody is mentally ill also does not mean they are an unfit parent. There has to be concrete proof, not just allegations, to remove children from their home beyond the 48 hour emergency protection hold.
This case is different because police were involved from the beginning. Police executed a search warrant for a poison. If there is evidence it was given to the children in harmful amounts, that would be determined by a medical examination and charges would be filed.
JMO
gitana1
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The house did look very well-maintained and the children as well - healthy, clean, etc..
However, in no system in the country are juvenile dependency cases open to public scrutiny. It will never be a requirement that the public be told what the parents have done for the government to retain custody of those kids. That is because those case are totally confidential.
Nevertheless, there are varying hints and accounts in what LE and the parents have said.
1. The mother reported that their was an anonymous allegation that the children were running barefoot in the snow.
2. Both parents have stated there were allegations that MMS, a non-FDA approved supplement, was being given to the kids.
3. The sheriffs stated that:
"On January 9, 2015 the Garland County Sheriff’s Office responded to possible child abuse and neglect allegations from reports of concerned citizens to the Child Abuse Hotline. This information was provided by two concerned citizens that are familiar with, and friends of, the family.
Multiple agencies responded to the residence, located at 815 Treasure Isle Road, Hot Springs Arkansas. Upon arrival, and after an extensive on site investigation, it was determined by investigators the minor children living at the residence were at risk of serious harm due to a number of different factors. There have been a number of reports in various media outlets the decision was made to remove the minor children from the residence based on one contributing factor of a chemical known as “MMS” or “Miracle Mineral Supplement.”. This is absolutely false, as there were a number of different factors and investigators felt they had no choice but to intervene in the best interest of the minor children." http://hotspringsdaily.com/2015/01/sheriffs-update-on-children-taken-into-fostercare/
4. The father stated that they were accused of spanking the kids: "But, he noted, if spanking constitutes child abuse, most families would be guilty. 'Any parent in America would identify with me when you’re dealing with rebellious teenagers,' he said." http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ts-over-the-dangerous-miracle-supplement-mms/
5. The mom stated that someone alleged the dad had slapped one of the kids in the face.
6. The adult son defended LE and DHS while sympathetic to his parents, he said their was some truth and possibly some exaggeration in the allegations but reason for concern his parents probably need help with their parenting.
7. The dad said allegations were made by one, possibly two disgruntled teens.
Unless there are criminal charges, it is unlikely we will ever get the whole story. It is not our right to know. And it is not necessary that we know for kids to be placed or kept in the system. Public knowledge of the allegations and/or public opinion is 100% irrelevant to securing the safety and welfare of children.
Normal teens "rebel" against their parents as a means of finding their independence. This is a normal, healthy developmental milestone. The kids in question may be bucking against their parents' religious or political beliefs. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of flexibility surrounding the kids, IMO. Not saying the kids should call the shots, but parenting teens is immensely different from parenting the 12 and under set. These folks live in Duggar-land. Their lifestyle very much limits the kids' choices and futures.
Hard labor how?
I find it difficult to believe the older child in this case turned out so well if the parents are all that screwed up. They did something right with his home schooling if he's been able to go on to college and do well.
JMO
These folks do live in Duggar-land but as all children are allowed, once they become 18, they can make their own choice about religion and politics.
JMO
ETA: if the allegations are not able to be substantiated, no charges are filed but the information is entered into a data base to preserve the report so that it is flagged if subsequent allegations are made.
gitana1
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Perhaps while barefoot in the snow?
BBM.
That's not how charges are decided. I've read similar statements by you in other cases but that's not how probable cause is necessarily determined. (And BTW, as I've explained before, an arrest does not have to, and often does not, follow a finding of probable cause. You need more for charges, typically).
Of course in this case, I think if there were toxic levels in the kids' blood, there would definitely be an arrest. However, high levels of toxins in a child's system would not be required to find probable cause to arrest. If it is illegal to give a kid a certain substance and parents are caught or admit to doing so, the presence of certain levels of that substance is not necessary to find probable cause that a crime has been committed.
Yoda
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An interesting sermon. Im on ipad and it won't let me download/save.
Satan wears the parents out
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69118012/Satan Wears Out Parents.mp3
https://stanleyfamily.wordpress.com/4-morning-devotionals/
fyi if listening from the Wordpress site click the audio BELOW the sermon title.
Satan wears the parents out
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69118012/Satan Wears Out Parents.mp3
https://stanleyfamily.wordpress.com/4-morning-devotionals/
fyi if listening from the Wordpress site click the audio BELOW the sermon title.
Neither parent in this case admitted to giving the child the mineral substance seized after the 5-hour search of the home. There has to be probable cause to arrest the parents and no parent has been arrested in this case. In my state, the children would have been returned to the parents within days if no evidence of abuse or neglect was found.
It also isn't illegal to let your children play barefoot in the snow. The average annual snowfall in Hot Springs, is a whopping 3.5".
http://www.hotspringsvillage.com/infoweather.htm
JMO
He seems to believe what he preaches. The garden photos show the family has a huge, bountiful garden with a greenhouse and the children are all smiles in showing off the impressive results.
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