Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

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Canadian4 said:
I'm asking because I really don't know the answer. Did the clocks change in SA this weekend?
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I always thought that Daylight Savings Time was a North American thing...except for places like Arizona and Saskatchewan who opt out... just sayin'.!
 
sorrell skye said:
Going back over old articles from last year.

The snippet below is from 2/20/2013, following the bail hearing.

Police also found two iPhones in the bathroom and two BlackBerrys in the bedroom, Botha said, adding that none had been used to phone for help. Roux later suggested that a fifth phone, not collected by the police, was used by Pistorius to make calls for a hospital and help. After the hearing, Roux told journalists that Pistorius' defense team had the phone, but did not elaborate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hearing-hilton-botha-testimony_n_2725410.html

2 phones found in the bathroom (IIRC, they were found on the floor mat): neither of these were used to call for help.

2 phones found in the bedroom: neither of these were used to call for help.

5th phone: OP's legal team collected this phone, and claim this is the phone OP used to call for help.

I've always been curious about the 2 phones found on the floor in the bathroom. Since neither of these were used to phone for help, I wonder why they were in the bathroom - on the floor, no less?

I've followed this case from the beginning, but took a break the past few months. Can someone please remind me whether or not the State is in possession of this 5th phone?
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BBM in red

I think the phones will be a big part in building motive, which helps to solidify whether or not Oscar intentionally went after Reeva that night. Now we get to the heart of intention - did he have a reason to kill her.

In Samantha's testimony, she talked about how Oscar never went anywhere in the house without his phone. He'd bring it in to the bathroom, in to the kitchen, etc. He used it 4-5 times every night in bed (not talking, but messaging, etc) and kept it on the side of his bed to charge at night.

So of course that makes you wonder, why so protective of what's on that phone? Did Reeva get a hold of his phone that night and he flipped out?

The two phones on the bathroom floor that were NOT used to call for help after the shooting are big indeed. I'm waiting very anxiously to hear what's on them!!
 
minor4th said:
I wouldn't underestimate him. I believe that in certain instances where it appears that he is trying to get the witnesses to change their testimony, his actual purpose is to lock them in to their version and also to demonstrate their bias and refusal to consider possibilities that do not align with their beliefs about Oscar's guilt.

I agree he is in his element - he has a presence that suggests he is in command, even with the judge. He is aggravating for sure.

ETA: He has pretty well established that a cricket bat hitting the door can sound like gunshots, as Stipp said they sounded identical. Roux knew this would be Stipp's testimony, and I believe this is why he really got Burger to twist herself in knots over her certainty that she heard gunshots and it could not possibly be the cricket bat hitting the door -- her dogmatic insistence and refusal to admit even the possibility paints her as unreasonable and biased.
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This can easily be settled by learning how many bullets came out of that gun that evening. I dont think that has been disclosed publicly.

If there were only four bullets shot and Dr. Stipp heard more than four shots, those other "shots" need to be accounted for.

Perhaps the "shots" noise was actually from the bat then???

Roux knows exactly how many shots were fired. It is in his favor if witnesses contradict each other about what they heard.
 
Trooper said:
while Dr Stipp was trying vainly to find signs of life on Reevas body, Oscar slips upstairs...what for? Stipps instinct was the Oscar was going to kill himself. He made sure he knew if the gun was secured.. doesn't mean ALL guns in the house were secured and out of Oscars grasp.

Dr Stipp testified that at some stage while frantically checking Reeva, he asked no specific person had an ambulance been called.. Standar says yes. .. now.. he was directed to by Oscar, Oscar says..

Baba says Standar then, after telling Dr Stipp and ambulance has been called, then directs Baba to call an ambulance..

perhaps Standar meant he was in the process of having an ambulance summoned .. to delegate this job.

Ms Standar and Mr Stander were very concerned, in Dr Stipps testimony that no press, or police be involved. Dr Stipps main priority was an ambulance order, hence his interjection amid this discussion re press, police etc about the ambulance call..
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Trooper - according to Dr. Stipp's testimony on Thursday, March 6, he asked Stander specifically if an ambulance had been called and Stander told him that he hadn't called an ambulance yet. Upon hearing that bit of news, Dr. Stipp called a local hospital and requested an ambulance, but was instructed by that hospital's ER to contact an ambulance service. Then Stander finally made the call, and handed the phone over to Dr. Stipp, who gave the information to the ambulance service and the ambulance was then dispatched.

Prior to and during Dr. Stipp's arrival at OP's house, Stander would have had plenty of time to phone for an ambulance, yet did not do so until after Dr. Stipp's inquiry.

I can't help but wonder why, since in OP's BH affidavit, OP claimed that he phoned Stander & asked him to call an ambulance. At this point, I doubt the veracity of that claim.

Then there's that strange remark attributed to Mrs. Stander "I hope this doesn't get out in the papers".

It seems to me that Mr. & Mrs. Stander may have been more interested in protecting the reputation of the estate and/or protecting OP's reputation than they were in seeking medical aid for a dying woman. IDK
 
Trooper said:
thanks for that, skye.. I couldn't find the darn pic.. I wonder which side Reeva parked her car?? closest to the door? or was that Oscars preferred position?? who knows?

she went out with a load of laundry, came back.. just wonder if it was her car parked on the near side of the driveway.. near in relation to the front door.
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Scroll down - the driveway pic is there.
 
curiousjo said:
Why did Mr Stander show up with his wife and daughter? Very odd at 3:30 AM! I wonder if OP asked Stander to help with a cover up? IDK. Then Mrs Stander said something to the doctor about being worried that the media would find out....
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The whole Stander thing is bizarre. I really hope the prosecution digs in to their relationship with OP.

The fact that ANYBODY would be worried about media finding out immediately after such a sad event is disgusting. That certainly does make me wonder what they were up to.
 
minor4th said:
I agree that it is intuitively hard to grasp that 4 witnesses were mistaken about hearing a woman scream - but we already have one witness who has confirmed that she thought the screams were a woman but it was actually Oscar (whose voice her husband recognized).
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Let's be careful about this "one witness". She never said "screams". She heard what she thought was arguing, esp. a woman'a voice. This started at at about 2 am. She just wanted to sleep, put a pillow over her head, etc. Then about an hour later, she heard four loud bangs. Then silence. Then CRYING, which she thought was a female crying. But then her husband said it was OP crying. Crying is not screaming.
 
Can anyone tell me what time testimony is set to resume? (I'm in the central time zone - DST, of course)

This trial is picking up more interest and the weekly thread became too long so we are going to go to a daily trial discussion thread format. I've already generated a thread for the next day's testimony and just want to make sure it's open in time to give you guys a chance to move over.

Thanks in advance for the info! :blowkiss:
 
Trooper said:
Everyone has a bias... everyone on earth has a bias as to what they heard, what they saw.. its a given. Roux is paid to have a bias, he is employed by Oscar to maintain and present a bias.. Nel is paid and employed by the Republic of South Africa to present a bias... it is a meaningless accusation, and the bottom line here is who has the strongest reason to have a bias.... no question that platform is occupied by Oscar.. his life depends on his bias being the one that prevails.

Witnesses being catalogued as 'biased' is redundant.. Any one who is a witness for the prosecution has ipso facto a bias.. ditto for the witnesses for the defence, its intrinsic. It is the position they have been put in by Oscars shooting of Reeva.. if he hadn't shot her, would they be biased? could they be portrayed as biased? Absolutely not. This applies to both sides of the case in equal and exact measure. That is.. the witness for the defence of Oscar are and must be as biased, logically..

None of these people, the ones already testified, the ones to come, would be there , including Nel and Roux , if Oscar hadn't pulled the trigger. Oscar wouldn't be in court having his bias towards his actions being presented.

Its a huge huge stretch to conclude that Ms Burger, for example, woke up that night from the sounds she heard and instantly formed an inaccurate bias against Oscar. To assume that, there has to be some previous interchange between Oscar and Ms Burger that provoked a desire to form (a) a bias and (b) an inaccurate and malicious bias and then , astonishingly , perjure herself in a murder trial.. That is one hell of a leap of logic, so huge it cannot be even put in the rational basket..
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:goodpost:
 
Again I ask people to think for themselves and not necessarily accept either side at this point.

W.o. presentation of more witnesses, but especially forensics and ballistics, there could still be some shockers coming.

E.g., I used to think there were 3 possible events in a certain sequence as far as gun shots and "bat shots". I.e., 2 volleys of gunshots where first volley may have been just 1 shot (and heard with echoes by 1 or more witnesses--standard given the physics of these events).

The smashing of the door with the cricket bat, I used to go with OP's affi as being the last thing. Several things make it possible to me now that it may have come before any shooting. And also that this may not have been heard by neighbors at all—certainly not the more distant ones. I have given many reasons for the obvious differences in batshots from gunshots.

So there are still many possibilities, and I think some shockers and horrifics are coming.
 
beach said:
Can anyone tell me what time testimony is set to resume? (I'm in the central time zone - DST, of course)

This trial is picking up more interest and the weekly thread became too long so we are going to go to a daily trial discussion thread format. I've already generated a thread for the next day's testimony and just want to make sure it's open in time to give you guys a chance to move over.

Thanks in advance for the info! :blowkiss:
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Beach - WAT says trial will resume 2:30 a.m. ET Monday (tonight). I hope their time is accurate, since we just switched over to DST.

Daily trial threads will be fantastic!!! TY!
 
beach said:
Can anyone tell me what time testimony is set to resume? (I'm in the central time zone - DST, of course)

This trial is picking up more interest and the weekly thread became too long so we are going to go to a daily trial discussion thread format. I've already generated a thread for the next day's testimony and just want to make sure it's open in time to give you guys a chance to move over.

Thanks in advance for the info! :blowkiss:
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Beach.. if you check out the time stamp on my post, ( I have no idea what time zone that is ) and relate it to your own, it will be approx. 4 hours and 30 minutes elapsed time when court resumes.. there is also a little tiny bit of argy bargy that wasn't quite resolved on Friday afternoon, re time of resumation..

the prosecution says 10 am SAST.. add on another 30 mins, the defence says they are rocking up at 9.30 SAST to continue.
 
shane13 said:
Again I ask people to think for themselves and not necessarily accept either side at this point.

W.o. presentation of more witnesses, but especially forensics and ballistics, there could still be some shockers coming.

E.g., I used to think there were 3 possible events in a certain sequence as far as gun shots and "bat shots". I.e., 2 volleys of gunshots where first volley may have been just 1 shot (and heard with echoes by 1 or more witnesses--standard given the physics of these events).

The smashing of the door with the cricket bat, I used to go with OP's affi as being the last thing. Several things make it possible to me now that it may have come before any shooting. And also that this may not have been heard by neighbors at all—certainly not the more distant ones. I have given many reasons for the obvious differences in batshots from gunshots.

So there are still many possibilities, and I think some shockers and horrifics are coming.
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Very good advice, and also very good points, Shane.

I'm with you. :)
 
curiousjo said:
Photo of home & 3D re-creation video of incident & visual: http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/06/Dramatic-testimony-from-inside-Oscar-Pistorius-home

I think OP home is in the middle of photo - with all the shrubs around it. Which home is the doctors? The one with red on it, on corner, or behind his? Just wondering since he is the one who heard the double sets of noises and must be in closest proximity (of the neighbors who have testified).
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Towards the end of that video, they show the outline of a shot Reeva in the toilet room on the floor to the left of the toilet (from the vantage point of sitting on a toilet) with her head on the toilet seat.

Also, if you have seen the leaked bloody images of the toilet room, you will notice a big blood smear on that left side of the seat.

So that would likely mean that she was sitting on the floor next to the toilet and not on it when she was shot. That's a big deal.. stating the obvious. They need to hurry up and get to the reports! :)
 
I could make that less complex.. from the time you read this post, assuming you are reading it right now, forward yourself 4 hrs and 30 mins . whatever time zone you are located, that is the real time the thing will kick off again.

haha... maybe I have deepened the complexity.
 
minor4th said:
It doesn't matter - she heard screaming that she thought was a woman, but it was Oscar. Therefore, Oscar screams like a woman unless she is lying.
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Well, where do I begin? First, Merwe never said she heard screaming. She testified to hearing loud voices, esp a woman (as in an argument), then over an hour later, after four loud bangs, silence, then crying, which she ascribed to a female. Her husband said no, that is Oscar crying. And without prejudice I have say you too present a false dichotomy: If she's wrong, she's lying. Come now everyone, let's go easy on the lying charges.
 
sorrell skye said:
Beach - WAT says trial will resume 2:30 a.m. ET Monday (tonight). I hope their time is accurate, since we just switched over to DST.

Daily trial threads will be fantastic!!! TY!
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If trial begins at 9:30 then I believe WAT might be wrong. SA is seven hours ahead of CST now. So it would be 3:30 EST am. What time does trial start in SA?
 
it will start at 9.30 am SAST if the defence has their way.. 10.00 am SAST if the prosecution has their way.. no one seemed to agree at close of play Friday.

The Prosecution said they had a small problem about a witness , but it wasn't ventured into what the problem was, or who the witness was...
 
sorrell skye said:
Very good advice, and also very good points, Shane.

I'm with you. :)
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Great Sorrell.
If that's the case, I'll give you a chance to learn some of my thinking and writing.

You (or others) wlll have to come up with the answer to the following:
People assume Oscar was in a rage state. And that may well be true.
But I think he was also or instead in a different anomalous state during the final half-hour of events.

What do you think that was?
 
Trooper said:
it will start at 9.30 am SAST if the defence has their way.. 10.00 am SAST if the prosecution has their way.. no one seemed to agree at close of play Friday.

The Prosecution said they had a small problem about a witness , but it wasn't ventured into what the problem was, or who the witness was...
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Aha. If it starts at 9:30 then it will be 3:30 EST. If it starts at 10:00 then it's 4:00, of course. Yikes.
 
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