Patsy Ramsey

RANCH said:

It's okay. I think that one can say that the bed-wetting doesn't have anything to do with this case when looking at the intruder evidence and the overall picture.

I don't disregard the points you make about this being evidence of abuse. At the same time I do have to say that I disagree with your conclusions.

MOO.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion! But I do have to ask what you mean by intruder evidence and the overall picture? I appreciate you fully reading and comprehending how i arrived at my opinion!

SuperDave said:

I'll add this, Meara: I know that there ARE people who have tried to make Patsy out to be a monster. I think that's very unfair. Justice must have room for compassion, or it is not truly justice.

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Thank you, SD. You have said a wise thing, and eloquently.

In case this needs to be said..... Rest assured that my focus was the characterization of the GJ proceedings. I myself see Patsy not as a monster but as a very wounded and disordered person. If the Borderline diagnosis is correct, the psychological damage was done in the first 18 months of her life. She never had a chance.

RANCH said:

If a kid has an accident when awake does that mean they where abused?

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Not necessarily. But it does raise the question.
The only experience I've ever had with toilet trained children who wet or poop themselves has been when they are ill, or denied access to a toilet for a long period of time, or are abuse victims.

I'm sure there are a few reasons for encoporesis, and for wetting one's self when awake. But very few of them are natural reasons.

This is a new one for me; Feces was observed to be smeared on a basement wall, near the TOD, according to ___________?...

i always wonder if any teachers from JB's school were interviewed?

the toilet training seems to be an issue, i am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that JB would also have had accidents or needed help with wiping herself at school but this has never been mentioned

here is a link,via CIAP, re: encopresis and enuresis,on point 4 there is a table with physiological and psychological reasons for why a child might develop one or both of them.


http://www.mdconsult.com.acs.hcn.co...50062-5&isbn=1-56053-418-4&uniqId=448837372-2

from the same article, advice in how to deal with soiling:

11. Should the child be reminded to toilet?

Normal children and adults perceive when their rectum is full, but chronic constipation causes stretching and desensitization of the lower gastrointestinal tract. Psychological reluctance and constitutional inattention also may contribute to the child’s failure to initiate trips to the bathroom. It is therefore recommended that the child be gently reminded to adhere to scheduled sittings on the toilet after breakfast and dinner either until a bowel movement has occurred or until 10 minutes have expired. To take full advantage of the gastrocolic reflex, 5–30 minutes after eating is optimal. Bending forward while sitting, relaxing the anus and buttocks, and pushing gently with the abdomen may help. For shorter children, a foot stool is recommended to enhance pushing leverage and to provide a greater sense of security. If recurrent soiling occurs (indicating a full rectum) or if the child complains of stomachache, cramping, or feeling blocked up, a more intensive program of sitting on the toilet is indicated. On weekends and after school, 10 minutes of every hour should be dedicated to sitting on the toilet until a large bowel movement has been produced.

Individuals in the child’s other significant environments (e.g., school, day care, family relatives) should be advised to allow the child unfettered access to bathrooms and to offer gentle reminders when there are indications of flatulence, abdominal cramping, or frank soiling. Lectures, harsh criticism, and shame induction should be avoided.

12. How should a caregiver respond to soiling?

Evidence (either olfactory or visual) of soiling should be met with an immediate, firm but restrained request that the child clean him- or herself and put on fresh clothing. Spare undergarments should be available at school or at day care. The child should be involved in scraping off (e.g., with a spatula or spoon) solid waste and then washing the soiled underwear in the toilet. A bucket of water with bleach and a lid can be left for this purpose in the bathroom. This procedure reinforces the message that soiling is not catastrophic but neither is it to be tolerated.

i am not sure that a child needs to be involved in removing the waste from her/his underpants as i think she or he would be embarrassed and upset enough, you can let them help if they want to,with the washing but my approach with my kids was more of : accidents do happen as it wasn't severe or something that happened frequently.

how severe were those issues with JB?

pukasonqo2 said:

i always wonder if any teachers from JB's school were interviewed?

the toilet training seems to be an issue, i am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that JB would also have had accidents or needed help with wiping herself at school but this has never been mentioned

here is a link,via CIAP, re: encopresis and enuresis,on point 4 there is a table with physiological and psychological reasons for why a child might develop one or both of them.


http://www.mdconsult.com.acs.hcn.co...50062-5&isbn=1-56053-418-4&uniqId=448837372-2

from the same article, advice in how to deal with soiling:

11. Should the child be reminded to toilet?

Normal children and adults perceive when their rectum is full, but chronic constipation causes stretching and desensitization of the lower gastrointestinal tract. Psychological reluctance and constitutional inattention also may contribute to the child’s failure to initiate trips to the bathroom. It is therefore recommended that the child be gently reminded to adhere to scheduled sittings on the toilet after breakfast and dinner either until a bowel movement has occurred or until 10 minutes have expired. To take full advantage of the gastrocolic reflex, 5–30 minutes after eating is optimal. Bending forward while sitting, relaxing the anus and buttocks, and pushing gently with the abdomen may help. For shorter children, a foot stool is recommended to enhance pushing leverage and to provide a greater sense of security. If recurrent soiling occurs (indicating a full rectum) or if the child complains of stomachache, cramping, or feeling blocked up, a more intensive program of sitting on the toilet is indicated. On weekends and after school, 10 minutes of every hour should be dedicated to sitting on the toilet until a large bowel movement has been produced.

Individuals in the child’s other significant environments (e.g., school, day care, family relatives) should be advised to allow the child unfettered access to bathrooms and to offer gentle reminders when there are indications of flatulence, abdominal cramping, or frank soiling. Lectures, harsh criticism, and shame induction should be avoided.

12. How should a caregiver respond to soiling?

Evidence (either olfactory or visual) of soiling should be met with an immediate, firm but restrained request that the child clean him- or herself and put on fresh clothing. Spare undergarments should be available at school or at day care. The child should be involved in scraping off (e.g., with a spatula or spoon) solid waste and then washing the soiled underwear in the toilet. A bucket of water with bleach and a lid can be left for this purpose in the bathroom. This procedure reinforces the message that soiling is not catastrophic but neither is it to be tolerated.

i am not sure that a child needs to be involved in removing the waste from her/his underpants as i think she or he would be embarrassed and upset enough, you can let them help if they want to,with the washing but my approach with my kids was more of : accidents do happen as it wasn't severe or something that happened frequently.

how severe were those issues with JB?

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It depends on who you ask...

"On the record", reliable testimony doesn't lend much credence to theories involving chronic encopresis. (JMHO.)

RANCH said:

If a kid has an accident when awake does that mean they where abused?

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Don't be ridiculous. All kids have accidents. You know exactly what the difference is in this case. JB didn't have accidents. She wet and soiled her pants EVERY day- while awake- and this is after being fully potty trained at age 3.

DeeDee249 said:

Don't be ridiculous. All kids have accidents. You know exactly what the difference is in this case. JB didn't have accidents. She wet and soiled her pants EVERY day- while awake- and this is after being fully potty trained at age 3.

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I don't think my question is ridiculous. I didn't know that JBR wet and soiled her pants every day. Sorry I asked.

Mama2JML said:

This is a new one for me; Feces was observed to be smeared on a basement wall, near the TOD, according to ___________?...

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otg, there is a request for the 1998 section of the interview that refers to the smear on the wall outside of the basement's bathroom entry. UKGuy and I discussed it on another thread elsewhere but I don't recall where. He clued me in to the basement's wall but he made me find the source. So, there are two sources available out there, apparently.

From the Just Patsy, Only Patsy thread:

otg said:

The toilet was disassembled to look for evidence that might have been flushed. If I'm not mistaken (it does happen occasionally), blood evidence (if present) will show up with luminol.

The area with a crumpled towel is where a section of carpet was removed by CSIs because of something that showed up (it's circled in red). So my guess is that the towel was something brought by CSIs for their purposes (since it's laid on top of the removed carpet area).

Just to add to your list of "deplorable" conditions, there was a discussion in the 1998 interview that indicates (IMO) there may still have been some fecal smearing on the wall just outside this toilet. If you don't remember it, let me know and I'll post it.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10353409

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"...when ordinary people are confronted with the horror of naked evil -- their tendency is to deny the evidence of their reason and senses; sometimes -- often, perhaps -- to an irrational degree.”
Dr. Zugibe

A person with voluntary encopresis has control over when and where bowel movements occur and chooses to have them in inappropriate places. Constipation is not a factor, and the feces is usually a normal consistency. Often feces is smeared in an obvious place, although sometimes it is hidden around the house. The APA classifies voluntary encopresis as encopresis without constipation and overflow incontinence.

In young children, voluntary encopresis may represent a power struggle between the child and the caregiver doing the toilet training. In older children, voluntary encopresis is often associated with oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), conduct disorder, sexual abuse, or high levels of psychological stressors.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Encopresis.html

If your child reaches the age of 6 years and is still regularly wetting the bed, this is known as ‘Primary Enuresis. If your child starts to wet the bed after a period of being dry (e.g. for 6 months), this is known as ‘Secondary Enuresis.’

In either case you should seek advice.

If the bedwetting started after your child has been dry at night for a period of time (secondary enuresis), and physical problems have been ruled out, your GP or school nurse might suggest that you see someone from your local child and adolescent mental health service.

If your child is not constipated, the cause may be emotional or psychological. If they start to soil or to smear faeces after no previous difficulties, they may be emotionally upset. If you can find out what is upsetting them and sort it out, the soiling may then improve. If it carries on, your GP may suggest specialist help from the local child and adolescent mental health service.

[snip]

The parents were told that a setback in normal development when previously dry was more likely a reaction to psychological (or in some cases physical) stress.

Bedwetting may mean that your child misses out on sleepovers, holidays or trips away. They may feel embarrassed or ashamed that they still wet the bed. This can affect the child’s self-esteem.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/parentsandyouthinfo/parentscarers/soilingorwetting.aspx

Encopresis and enuresis may be behavioral indicators of abuse. Some victims have never managed to control elimination or their bladders, but other children, who were toilet-trained, become enuretic or encopretic with the onset of abuse. The former situations often are ones of chronic family dysfunction and chronic sexual abuse. In the latter, the incontinence is a regression to an earlier developmental stage.

The encopretic or enuretic behavior may be related to regression, anxiety, and misperceptions about the abuse and how the body functions. This behavior may also be an attempt to make the victim unappealing to protect against future assault.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/treatmen/treatmenf.cfm

The basement bathroom being dirty is talked about in PR's June 1999 interview.



TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What do you mean that they had
15 not flushed that toilet, what do you mean by that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think someone had gone
17 to the potty and hadn't flushed it. It was there for
18 several days.
19 TOM HANEY: Are we talking urine?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It was just
21 reported to me. It was, mom, the bathroom is pretty
22 yucky, and Linda took care of it is the way I think it
23 went.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: How common was it for Evan and
25 Burke to not flush?
0410
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Burke is pretty well
2 trained, because that is one of my big pet peeves, but
3 Evan I don't know about.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: What does that mean, Patsy,
5 when you say you don't know about?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether he
7 flushes regularly.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: That could imply, I don't know
9 about him because he doesn't flush, or I wanted to
10 clear that up.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I would believe
12 it was Evan that used it and didn't flush rather than
13 my son. I would like to believe that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Was it a more than one-time
15 occasion in this bathroom down there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember that one.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that? It doesn't have
18 to be precise, I mean how long before Christmas?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know
20 exactly. I just remember it happening.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Right before Christmas?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't remember. I just
23 remember the event that there was a dirty bathroom bowl
24 and obviously the boys were down there using it and not
25 flushing.
0411
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, did Linda clean it
2 up, do you know?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I am sure she did, but I
4 didn't go down there and double check it.
5 TOM HANEY: Is she usually pretty confident
6 if you give her something?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Had you been in this bathroom
9 at all prior to Christmas of '96?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I hadn't been in there.
11 You can tell I haven't been in there since '94.
12 TOM HANEY: Anything else? The tissue of
13 some kind.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
15 TOM HANEY: 246 now.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Is that the hall
17 from here? No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is a closer picture of the
19 wall.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, is it? Okay. It looks
21 dirty to me, that close up.

I just am hysterical over the lengths people will go to make something out of nothing. So the kids did not flush. Kids don't always flush.

Bathroom issues are normal in kids. That is just a fact.

DeeDee249 said:

Don't be ridiculous. All kids have accidents. You know exactly what the difference is in this case. JB didn't have accidents. She wet and soiled her pants EVERY day- while awake- and this is after being fully potty trained at age 3.

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No we don't know that. She had accidents. If she was doing it everyday that lends to the biological not abuse.

What is the most amusing to me is that we have DNA that says someone else assaulted her. There is nothing, nada, zilch that says PR was abusive in anyway to this child.

Abuse is a word that gets thrown around like water these days. There was no abuse here. None. None reported by anyone. None shown in the Autopsy except for the abuse suffered at her death. There is no link to that death and PR.
Nothing.

Wow. :facepalm:

DeDee said:

otg, there is a request for the 1998 section of the interview that refers to the smear on the wall outside of the basement's bathroom entry. UKGuy and I discussed it on another thread elsewhere but I don't recall where. He clued me in to the basement's wall but he made me find the source. So, there are two sources available out there, apparently.

From the Just Patsy, Only Patsy thread:

otg said:

The toilet was disassembled to look for evidence that might have been flushed. If I'm not mistaken (it does happen occasionally), blood evidence (if present) will show up with luminol.

The area with a crumpled towel is where a section of carpet was removed by CSIs because of something that showed up (it's circled in red). So my guess is that the towel was something brought by CSIs for their purposes (since it's laid on top of the removed carpet area).

Just to add to your list of "deplorable" conditions, there was a discussion in the 1998 interview that indicates (IMO) there may still have been some fecal smearing on the wall just outside this toilet. If you don't remember it, let me know and I'll post it.

Click to expand...

"...when ordinary people are confronted with the horror of naked evil -- their tendency is to deny the evidence of their reason and senses; sometimes -- often, perhaps -- to an irrational degree.”
Dr. Zugibe

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Sorry I didn't get to this before Venom had to go to the trouble of looking it up, DeDee (Thanks, Venom.). (BTW, I love that quote from Zugibe, but you know that.) She got it right, except that I think it came from the June 23, 1998, interview ([ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945"]Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 - Forums For Justice[/ame]).

First let me say that I looked at my original post referred by you (and inserted within your quote) and think I may have been wrong about something (I know, I know... hard to believe, but it does happen -- as I had noted in the above post). The red circled area of bare floor is not where the carpet was removed by CSIs. Rather, I think now that it is where the toilet fixture had been affixed to the floor. After they removed the contents ( uke: ), they unfastened the toilet bowl and moved it to the side (as shown in this photo). They most likely placed something over the open hole (the "crumpled towel") in the floor to prevent anything from falling in.


Now on to the basement toilet. I've copied the interview as follows with my comments indented in green (I hate looking red text all through a written piece):

But that does not mean that is what it was at all. There is no testing to say that is what it was no lab results. It is just a guess and nothing to substantiate it.

In my bathroom right now there is a brown smear.. Know what it is from Hair color. on the other wall and the door are two more smears.

Dirt from my kids running in to use the bathroom after playing and helping dad in the garden.

There is no way to tell what was on the wall unless it was tested.

Is that the best you can do?

Prove it was fecal matter. Prove it. Not guess about it..

This case has real evidence. And plenty of it that points to an intruder but here were are again trying to make points with supposition and guessing.

While I was reading the basement bathroom discussion I was about a third of the way through and asking myself why is he trying so hard to pin Patsy down on the toilet? If she saw the state it was in, if she told the housekeeper, if the housekeeper was usually reliable in her cleaning, if Patsy checked to make sure it was clean.

The first thought that crossed my mind was the the bathroom was dirty, housekeeper claims she didn't clean it but it was clean at the crime scene. It sounds like no one can account for the state of the toilet...whatever that was. Interesting

And yet the toilet had nothing to do with the murder. go figure.