Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

SnooperDuper · Jul 20, 2014

Juballee said:
And finally, CN was charged with a crime that happened a few days after the theft, can you please explain why LE would chose to charge her with something for a later date and not bother with crimes that happened on the actual date of the murder?

Because absolutely no charges related to the murder of TB and theft of his truck would stick, because CN only drove the Yukon! If the death of TB was the unintended consequence of a robbery, CN could NOT be charged with murder, because she did not know beforehand that murder was going to occur. She may not even have known that a theft was going to occur, and LE must have no proof that she went into this knowing that there was going to be a theft, so she couldnt have been charged with that either. There were no applicable charges for what she did!

CN was only a witness, and that is not illegal. LE said that she was not involved in the murder of TB and thats fine, that fits, that seems to be correct. LE had nothing on her that could be used to charge her with the murder of TB or theft of his truck. She could have gotten off scott free. Of course, imagine the kerfuffle if LE announced that there was a witness, who had lawyered up, and they were unable to charge them with anything. Thats why they asked the public to forget about suspect #3 for a while.

Certainly LE was all over this group right from the start, because first thing in the morning on the 10th LE trailed DM all the way out to the hangar. Its reasonable to assume that LE had contact with CN on the 9th, because LE was ready to arrest within 24 hours. CN might have provided DM with a false alibi, and that made her accessory after the fact to murder, given her intimate, first-hand-witness knowledge of the crime and her lies. Then she lawyered up.

You do not face a charge with a possible life sentence for a little white lie. CN has enough knowledge of the whole situation and has lied enough to LE that LE feels that she should be locked up for at least 25 years. Her crime is big, not little.

CN should have said absolutely nothing at all to LE and she would have been free. Whatever she told LE on the 9th does not fit with the facts as LE knows them, and aided DM, so now shes in jail without bail.

So how did this girl go from no guilt to facing a life sentence? Well could you imagine how many times DM told CN, I love you and Im going to marry you after all of this is over, after what happened on the 6th? If CN marries DM shes a multi-millionaire, and that is a pretty good payoff for CN to stand by her man. Screw the kinesiology degree (shes going to lose her last year if she doesnt write the exams for it by August 1, anyway).

You know, I see DM as more of a mainstream radio kinda guy that might enjoy East Coast rap like RAM Squad and perhaps this guy, who has links to Toronto. Everyone put their hands in the air for Kanye!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOxb_SW4Cfg

Anyway, CNs fate is now directly tied to DMs fate. DM has to be found to be a murderer for CN to be found to be an accessory. Unfortunately LE has good evidence, which means evidence that is complete and redundant.

We have no proof that CN was Miss Right. She was probably one more Miss Right Now in DMs endless lineup. Suddenly she has a chance at the jackpot, all the millions, if she stands by DM. That is what took CN from being innocent and a witness, to being involved in the murder case.

All of this IMO.

lclabtech · Jul 20, 2014

Actually, not such a stretch, come to think of it, considering that the AG has been so informed and has come down solidly on the side of the hangmen. OK, the virtual hangmen.

My background is in science - I always try and evaluate based on what information I have and allow myself to keep an open mind to any new information that may change that evaluation. Based on what I know of the case right now, I do think it is very likely that DM and MS are guilty. But I will continue to evaluate new information as it comes to us. My only interest is in seeing the person or persons responsible for this put away for a long time - I don't know DM or MS from Adam so there's certainly no agenda here. I think calling people here hangmen is pretty unfair.

We have an eyewitness that puts MS and DM as the last people to see TB, we have TB's truck in DM's mom's driveway, we have TB's remains on DM's farm. Give me more information and I'll reevaluate. Until then, it's looking mighty grim for DM and MS, IMO.

ABro · Jul 20, 2014

Carli said:
Anyway, on another tack altogether, why exactly DID they go to Brantford on that terrible night? Did they drop someone off there? Pick someone up? Stop to get something important? Brantford isn't exactly near either the hangar or the farm. Hmmm. Now who lives in Brantford that might have anything whatsoever to do with this case, one might ask. Probably nobody? Probably just another one of those eensie questions? Or??? Did they stop for gas in Brantford? If so, where? If so, who was driving? And if so, does that add more clarity to the time frame?

Also, what ever became of the "udder fella" as they say in the Maritimes? You know, that third guy who reportedly arrived at the test drive but said he was going for coffee and would wait for them at the nearby Timmys. That guy seems to have disappeared altogether in the retelling. I'll try to find the link. Questions. Questions. It's your fault, ABro. You asked why anyone might harbour any doubts whatsoever about the investigation into the guilt of the accused. :moo:

You seem to assume that any new evidence -- or, to be more accurate, evidence the public is not (yet) privy to -- will absolve the accused. You need to consider that it might reinforce the existing and damning evidence we know of or simply be neutral.

I am intrigued by how certain people seem to think the mechanic mentioned in bold must somehow be guilty of something. Why is this? Because he is a mere mechanic as opposed to the heir to an aviation business? And what about innocent til proven guilty for the "salt of the earth" working man?

As for defending the underdog, something you mentioned earlier, Millard is hardly an underdog. He has a very competent lawyer.

Keep in mind that before the Innocence Project swings into action, it does some due diligence on the accused and gets some actual facts. They don't just say: "We feel he can't be guilty because we feel he can't possibly have done it."

Carli · Jul 20, 2014

ABro said:
You seem to assume that any new evidence -- or, to be more accurate, evidence the public is not (yet) privy to -- will absolve the accused. You need to consider that it might reinforce the existing and damning evidence we know of or simply be neutral.

I am intrigued by how certain people seem to think the mechanic mentioned in bold must somehow be guilty of something. Why is this? Because he is a mere mechanic as opposed to the heir to an aviation business? And what about innocent til proven guilty for the "salt of the earth" working man?

As for defending the underdog, something you mentioned earlier, Millard is hardly an underdog. He has a very competent lawyer.

Keep in mind that before the Innocence Project swings into action, it does some due diligence on the accused and gets some actual facts. They don't just say: "We feel he can't be guilty because we feel he can't possibly have done it."

Forgive me but I'm getting a wee bit tired of having to post at least twice for each opinion, I express. Once to try to present my view or try to respond to a request and at least once more to explain what I meant. It's so very discouraging. ABro, you're an accomplished writer and a diligent researcher. Surely you must realize that when, in response to earlier requests from you and others about what reasons I might have to question the guilt of the accused, I simply tossed together just a few of the hundreds of practical questions so far unanswered, that, IMO, could possibly be intrinsic to this case (or not.). The perception that I presumably hold - "that new evidence will absolve the accused" - is just patently absurd. It is precisely BECAUSE I think new evidence will EITHER "reinforce the existing and damning evidence" OR absolve the accused OR prove to be neutral. It is precisely BECAUSE I can't accept "damning evidence" without first hearing the defense response. Namely, at trial. I persist in believing that's why trials are necessary.

On to further explanations. I'm not sure what you mean about mechanics. Are they more "salt of the earth" than business leaders? How do we determine "salt of the earth" inadequacies, anyhow. Are mechanics less likely to be murderers than wealthier people? I've never thought about that before but it's an interesting question. I wonder how the 550 or so homicides annually carried out in Canada would be grouped by economic positioning. I'm betting most would fall at the lower end of the scale, but that's probably just my middle class bias shining through, IMO. Anyway, I'm not sure where mechanics would fit on the graph. Probably somewhere in the middle?

Still another explanation - when I mentioned defending the underdog, I'm sure you'll agree that most of the public at large together with the majority of posters here and now the Attorney General of Attorney all agree, without benefit of trial, that Millard is guilty of murdering three people. It thus follows that society is right in reportedly keeping him caged in solitary confinement twenty three and one half hours of every day with another year or two still to go (by which time, if prison stats are accurate, he will likely be mad as a hatter, if he isn't already.) So that would pretty much be my definition of "underdog" and has nothing to do with his lawyer's billings, although it may speak to his competence. Other underdogs for whose rights I have fought with some determination include Maher Arar and, presently, the shameful incarceration of Omar Khadr and the case of Romeo Phillion. IMO But I digress.

Thank you for the heads up on the Innocence Project. Suffice it to say I'm very, very familiar with their approach, but again, thanks anyway. They, together with Amnesty International and other important NGOs associated with human rights are outstanding organizations, worthy of far more support than they receive, IMO. IMHO. However, as you are aware, the Innocence Project takes up the cause of the wrongfully convicted. So far, in the cases associated with the presumed murders of Babcock, Millard and Bosma, we do not have convictions.

MsSherlock · Jul 20, 2014

Totally agree Arnie. IIRC, DM did seem to have a panache for "planning"- "The concept for the shoot, the props and the location were all Millard’s choosing."
http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/
IMHO, it's usually the "Bride to Be" that would be a stickler on details for her engagement pics and not the other way around. Discovering that DM's mother and ex, two ladies that seem to have a very busy life, were available on short notice to support DM the evening he discovered his father's lifeless body could have also been a very successful staging. After all, these 2 reputable, good looking ladies were there, yet MS and his girlfriend who were actually living there seemed to be MIA. IMO, the stars couldn't have aligned any better for DM with that one.

IMO, if things started to unravel or didn't go as planned it may have been enough to upset the apple cart starting a chain of impromptu reactive events. Something as simple as not enough gas in TB's truck, or perhaps MS not being able to control TB thus the murder not going down according to the script or the fact that TB's abduction was front page news the next day- heck, how would anyone have guessed that there was such a big difference between TPS and HPS

"Police were notified of Mr. Bosma’s disappearance immediately by his spouse and an investigation began."
http://www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/HPS/News/secondarrest.htm

Now, Arnie M, I know you're going to love this one!
http://inflight.squarespace.com/featured/2012/8/8/are-pilots-control-freaks.html

But taking that into more morbid territory, there's Russel Williams, a very competent pilot:
"But something went wrong. This shining star of the Canadian military turned into a sex criminal. And his love of photography, along with the obsessive attention to detail that made him such an able commander, would not only spur his deviance, it would provide the evidence that would sink him.
"If it hadn't been for his more severe later crimes and the meticulous documentation Williams compiled of his offenses, they might never have known there was a dangerous pervert next door."
http://truecrimecases.blogspot.ca/2012/08/david-russell-williams-kinky-killer.html

So, IMHO, even though things may not have gone as planned, they may not have missed the opportunity to take a pic or two, or send a message from the burner phone- the one that no one could ever trace back to them. IMO, the "selfie" evidence we may see in this trial may trump Williams & Bernardo put together. JMHO

Carli · Jul 20, 2014

lclabtech said:
My background is in science - I always try and evaluate based on what information I have and allow myself to keep an open mind to any new information that may change that evaluation. Based on what I know of the case right now, I do think it is very likely that DM and MS are guilty. But I will continue to evaluate new information as it comes to us. My only interest is in seeing the person or persons responsible for this put away for a long time - I don't know DM or MS from Adam so there's certainly no agenda here. I think calling people here hangmen is pretty unfair.

We have an eyewitness that puts MS and DM as the last people to see TB, we have TB's truck in DM's mom's driveway, we have TB's remains on DM's farm. Give me more information and I'll reevaluate. Until then, it's looking mighty grim for DM and MS, IMO.

Oh my goodness, lclabtech, we are on exactly the same page! I agree with you completely and, much more succinctly than I've done expressed the same point of view I hold. But you misunderstand, I never intended to call people here "hangmen". I was trying to use a different and hopefully more provocative phrase than "lynch mob" to describe the apparent views of the public at large. IMO this seems to be a view rooted in fully understandable sympathy for the terrible tragedies visited upon these undeserving and beautiful families but which stems, so far as I can tell, mostly from limited media reports and terse police statements and now the AG's intervention. I just can't leap on any "guilt by accusation" bandwagon in any legal case until I hear the prosecution's evidence together with the rebuttal to those facts.

Just a wee small barely mentionable point, though, to do with your stating that there is an eyewitness (by whom I think you must mean SB) that puts MS and DM as the last people to see TB. Do the facts actually support this contention? I suggest that while persons identified as MS and DM were the last persons seen with TB by the eyewitness, that would be accurate. Whether those persons were (a) correctly identified and (b) not met by anyone else and/or seen by anyone else after leaving the Bosma residence is critical. IMO. IMHO. I, for one, truly hope there were other eyewitnesses both along the way whose testimony will provide a cleaner timeline and who may even, hopefully for the case, have actually seen this murder take place.

Juballee · Jul 20, 2014

SnooperDuper said:
Because absolutely no charges related to the murder of TB and theft of his truck would stick, because CN only drove the Yukon! If the death of TB was the unintended consequence of a robbery, CN could NOT be charged with murder, because she did not know beforehand that murder was going to occur. She may not even have known that a theft was going to occur, and LE must have no proof that she went into this knowing that there was going to be a theft, so she couldn’t have been charged with that either. There were no applicable charges for what she did!

CN was only a witness, and that is not illegal. LE said that she was not involved in the murder of TB and that’s fine, that fits, that seems to be correct. LE had nothing on her that could be used to charge her with the murder of TB or theft of his truck. She could have gotten off scott free. Of course, imagine the kerfuffle if LE announced that there was a witness, who had lawyered up, and they were unable to charge them with anything. That’s why they asked the public to forget about suspect #3 for a while.

Certainly LE was all over this group right from the start, because first thing in the morning on the 10th LE trailed DM all the way out to the hangar. It’s reasonable to assume that LE had contact with CN on the 9th, because LE was ready to arrest within 24 hours. CN might have provided DM with a false alibi, and that made her accessory after the fact to murder, given her intimate, first-hand-witness knowledge of the crime and her lies. Then she lawyered up.

You do not face a charge with a possible life sentence for a little white lie. CN has enough knowledge of the whole situation and has lied enough to LE that LE feels that she should be locked up for at least 25 years. Her crime is big, not little.

CN should have said absolutely nothing at all to LE and she would have been free. Whatever she told LE on the 9th does not fit with the facts as LE knows them, and aided DM, so now she’s in jail without bail.

So how did this girl go from no guilt to facing a life sentence? Well could you imagine how many times DM told CN, I love you and I’m going to marry you after all of this is over, after what happened on the 6th? If CN marries DM she’s a multi-millionaire, and that is a pretty good payoff for CN to stand by her man. Screw the kinesiology degree (she’s going to lose her last year if she doesn’t write the exams for it by August 1, anyway).

You know, I see DM as more of a mainstream radio kinda guy that might enjoy East Coast rap like RAM Squad and perhaps this guy, who has links to Toronto. Everyone put their hands in the air for Kanye!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOxb_SW4Cfg

Anyway, CN’s fate is now directly tied to DM’s fate. DM has to be found to be a murderer for CN to be found to be an accessory. Unfortunately LE has good evidence, which means evidence that is complete and redundant.

We have no proof that CN was “Miss Right”. She was probably one more “Miss Right Now” in DM’s endless lineup. Suddenly she has a chance at the jackpot, all the millions, if she stands by DM. That is what took CN from being innocent and a witness, to being involved in the murder case.

All of this IMO.

There are too many points here to argue, but I will try to give my feedback on what I can in the time I have. I have to agree with whoever said that some posters write as if they have inside information at times as well, since some things are spoken with such authority. I apologize if I give that impression at times, all my posts are my opinion only.

The argument that CN didn't know a murder or theft was going to occur could also be used for DM for all we know, so I'm not sure how valid that is here. DM could be a witness and then an accessory after the fact as well, that could also fit into what we seem to accept as the evidence so far. That still doesn't make me feel she might have been there.

There is still the possibility that the current charges are meant to squeeze information out of her because she didn't talk, in my opinion. Maybe, if they are unsure if the charges will stick, they won't be going for a direct indictment, that's all. They do have the option of dropping the charges at any point, right up to trial, if I recall correctly.

She also could have given him an alibi without any intimate or firsthand knowledge of any crimes. To me it seems like some people like to keep their finger on the scale when it comes to weighing out possible guilt or innocence with the little information we have been given. We don't even know if her charges stem from providing an alibi, but it seems so simple to jump in and make her a full fledged conspirator from there, in my opinion. But making her out to be in it for his millions or some other sadistic reasons seems to me to be going a little overboard. From the little that we know, she seems like a normal university student working hard at getting a degree who had no prior criminal record and who might now be facing a life sentence for being in the wrong place or knowing the wrong person or saying the wrong thing. Or she could be innocent and following a lawer's advice to remain silent, and being held to get information out of her because LE feel she knows more than she is saying. We don't know, but some of the speculation never ends.

In case I didn't say it enough, all my posts are all my opinion only.

ABro · Jul 20, 2014

Carli said:
Forgive me but I'm getting a wee bit tired of having to post at least twice for each opinion, I express. Once to try to present my view or try to respond to a request and at least once more to explain what I meant. It's so very discouraging...

Still another explanation - when I mentioned defending the underdog, I'm sure you'll agree that most of the public at large together with the majority of posters here and now the Attorney General of Attorney all agree, without benefit of trial, that Millard is guilty of murdering three people. It thus follows that society is right in reportedly keeping him caged in solitary confinement twenty three and one half hours of every day with another year or two still to go (by which time, if prison stats are accurate, he will likely be mad as a hatter, if he isn't already.) So that would pretty much be my definition of "underdog" and has nothing to do with his lawyer's billings, although it may speak to his competence.

OK, I forgive you, and I'll refrain from irony, since that doesn't go over well, and stick to the facts.

The AG has never said a peep about the Laura Babcock and Wayne Millard trials, only the Tim Bosma one.

Also, it may very well be Millard's lawyer who is requesting he be kept in solitary. And it is often the defence attorneys who delay these trials forever and ever.

lclabtech · Jul 20, 2014

MsSherlock said:
Totally agree Arnie. IIRC, DM did seem to have a panache for "planning"- "The concept for the shoot, the props and the location were all Millard’s choosing."
http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/
IMHO, it's usually the "Bride to Be" that would be a stickler on details for her engagement pics and not the other way around. Discovering that DM's mother and ex, two ladies that seem to have a very busy life, were available on short notice to support DM the evening he discovered his father's lifeless body could have also been a very successful staging. After all, these 2 reputable, good looking ladies were there, yet MS and his girlfriend who were actually living there seemed to be MIA. IMO, the stars couldn't have aligned any better for DM with that one.

IMO, if things started to unravel or didn't go as planned it may have been enough to upset the apple cart starting a chain of impromptu reactive events. Something as simple as not enough gas in TB's truck, or perhaps MS not being able to control TB thus the murder not going down according to the script or the fact that TB's abduction was front page news the next day- heck, how would anyone have guessed that there was such a big difference between TPS and HPS

"Police were notified of Mr. Bosma’s disappearance immediately by his spouse and an investigation began."
http://www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/HPS/News/secondarrest.htm

Now, Arnie M, I know you're going to love this one!
http://inflight.squarespace.com/featured/2012/8/8/are-pilots-control-freaks.html

But taking that into more morbid territory, there's Russel Williams, a very competent pilot:
"But something went wrong. This shining star of the Canadian military turned into a sex criminal. And his love of photography, along with the obsessive attention to detail that made him such an able commander, would not only spur his deviance, it would provide the evidence that would sink him.
"If it hadn't been for his more severe later crimes and the meticulous documentation Williams compiled of his offenses, they might never have known there was a dangerous pervert next door."
http://truecrimecases.blogspot.ca/2012/08/david-russell-williams-kinky-killer.html

So, IMHO, even though things may not have gone as planned, they may not have missed the opportunity to take a pic or two, or send a message from the burner phone- the one that no one could ever trace back to them. IMO, the "selfie" evidence we may see in this trial may trump Williams & Bernardo put together. JMHO

I think this is a very interesting possibility. The reference to "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history"... well, I would be surprised if that didn't yield some pretty good evidence. And it would certainly drive home why this case might be one to go the route of direct indictment.

Carli · Jul 20, 2014

ABro said:
OK, I forgive you, and I'll refrain from irony, since that doesn't go over well, and stick to the facts.

The AG has never said a peep about the Laura Babcock and Wayne Millard trials, only the Tim Bosma one.

Also, it may very well be Millard's lawyer who is requesting he be kept in solitary. And it is often the defence attorneys who delay these trials forever and ever.

Thanks, ABro. Quite so. Do you know if the prosecutors requested her ruling on the LB and WM cases? Also, I think we've heard that Smich and Millard will not be jointly tried, but do we know if Millard will be tried on all three murder charges simultaneously? We don't get much press coverage of this case out here in the west beyond the west, so your research is very informative and much appreciated.

Yes, I was wondering about the possibility that Millard was being segregated from the rest of the prison population for a particular reason or reasons. If so, do you have any thoughts about why long term confinement in solitary might be in the prisoner's interests? Certainly, it is often defense who delay trials. This is just one of the cases where, reportedly, it's been hard as pulling hen's teeth to extract discovery from the prosecutors.

Oops. "Hen's teeth". If you'll can the irony, I'll try to harness the hyperbole. :truce: But that will be harder than pushing water uphill. Oops.

ABro · Jul 20, 2014

Juballee said:
The argument that CN didn't know a murder or theft was going to occur could also be used for DM for all we know, so I'm not sure how valid that is here. DM could be a witness and then an accessory after the fact as well, that could also fit into what we seem to accept as the evidence so far. That still doesn't make me feel she might have been there.

Well, there are some key differences between CN and DM. She wasn't seen by witnesses, didn't have the victim's remains on her property, his truck at her mother's, and didn't recently purchase a livestock incinerator for which she had no use.

Juballee said:
There is still the possibility that the current charges are meant to squeeze information out of her because she didn't talk, in my opinion. Maybe, if they are unsure if the charges will stick, they won't be going for a direct indictment, that's all. They do have the option of dropping the charges at any point, right up to trial, if I recall correctly.

This is true, but if the charges were trumped up as payback, don't you find it strange there hasn't been a bail hearing? That would indicate, IMO, that her lawyer is wary of testing the waters, don't you think?

SnooperDuper · Jul 20, 2014

Carli said:
Yes, I was wondering about the possibility that Millard was being segregated from the rest of the prison population for a particular reason or reasons. If so, do you have any thoughts about why long term confinement in solitary might be in the prisoner's interests?

Uh, it's so he doesn't get killed? Do you have any idea of how many poor and downtrodden members of society now find themselves in prison who would just love to punch out a rich kid who grew up with everything for that fact alone? Then, naturally, many would like to test out this tough guy that allegedly killed three people to see how tough he is. That's IMO. First off, he's a target for reasons that don't have anything to do with guilt or innocence, and then he's the millionaire that killed TB for his truck, which will also get you punched out. You think everyone is going to treat this guy like a celebrity and holla yo Big D but the reality is the guy would just be a punching bag. DM isn't doing endless pushups in his cell: he's gone all castaway like Tom Hanks. He is not fighting fit. Go ahead, put him in general population, they won't even need a trial. That's what I think.

Honestly DM only needs to be beaten up once for it to be all over the press in a general sh**storm. So why risk it? You know it's going to happen, if only because some wants to be in the papers like a celebrity too. Should they put him in general population but give him bodyguards too to try and prevent the inevitable? Is that special treatment?

MS on the other hand is poor, unemployed, and has a previous record so he doesn't stand out in any way and he is a among thugs. A would recognize that MS is not the brains behind the operation because MS has no money or resources or property. He's a soldier not a boss. The guys are probably like, what! You smoke drugs, sell drugs and still live wit yo momma too? Fam!

OTOH DM is going to have trouble finding other multimillionaires to hang with.

That's the way I see it. DM is in solitary so he is not physically damaged before his trial. He's getting the Wayne Gretzky treatment in a Sidney Crosby world. I don't think he should be complaining.

Juballee · Jul 20, 2014

ABro said:
Well, there are some key differences between CN and DM. She wasn't seen by witnesses, didn't have the victim's remains on her property, his truck at her mother's, and didn't recently purchase a livestock incinerator for which she had no use.

This is true, but if the charges were trumped up as payback, don't you find it strange there hasn't been a bail hearing? That would indicate, IMO, that her lawyer is wary of testing the waters, don't you think?

Anyone who has ever gone through the process of identifying a possible perpetrator in Ontario would realize how truly difficult the process is and how unsure you may remain afterwards. It is nothing at all like you see on TV. You have one chance to look at each photograph, and only one chance. You may only look at one at a time, you cannot find the most likely ones and compare them side-by-side. You can't keep one up if you like it but want still want to see and be sure the others don't resemble the person more. You cannot go back and look at any of them again to be sure. It is very, very, difficult. And do we even have MSM confirmation that SB positively identified DM at all?

As far as I recall from MSM reports, someone from MillardAir ordered the incinerator, but not necessarily DM. And there may have been a purpose for it other than burning bodies that we may not be aware of, that is just the truth no matter how much it may irk some people.

Lastly, bail hearings take time for the defence to receive all the disclosure, sort through it, understand it, and put together a proper submission, and in my mind, these things take time. I know that old 'they're in jail so they must be guilty' song is a top ten hit around here, but we've been through all the research that shows how unlikely she is to get bail anyway. How can her lawyer test the waters, really? If she has no real life knowledge of whether or not DM is guilty, how could she fight her charge that relies on his guilt to prove hers? Doesn't he have to be found guilty of a crime before she can be found guilty of aiding in his escape from prosecution for that crime? How confusing.

ABro · Jul 20, 2014

Juballee said:
As far as I recall from MSM reports, someone from MillardAir ordered the incinerator, but not necessarily DM. And there may have been a purpose for it other than burning bodies that we may not be aware of, that is just the truth no matter how much it may irk some people.

Yes, I remember you suggesting at one time that DM might have wanted to start a a cat corpse disposal business, possibly to help animal rescue groups. Maybe he thought it would be a good way to keep his fiancee occupied at their rural Ontario dream home while he was over at the hangar. Strange though that Tim Bosma's remains are reported to have ended up in this Eliminator.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?213364-The-Incinerator&p=9790031#post9790031

Juballee said:
Lastly, bail hearings take time for the defence to receive all the disclosure, sort through it, understand it, and put together a proper submission, and in my mind, these things take time. I know that old 'they're in jail so they must be guilty' song is a top ten hit around here, but we've been through all the research that shows how unlikely she is to get bail anyway. How can her lawyer test the waters, really? If she has no real life knowledge of whether or not DM is guilty, how could she fight her charge that relies on his guilt to prove hers? Doesn't he have to be found guilty of a crime before she can be found guilty of aiding in his escape from prosecution for that crime? How confusing.

No, we haven't been through research showing how unlikely people charged as accessory to murder are to get bail. Maybe you'd like to provide some links. Pretty much everyone I talk to is very surprised to hear she's still in jail.

What's more the onus would be on the crown to prove a murder took place so it's the crown that would would be scrambling not the defence, who is guaranteed a bail hearing whenever they request it.

And, no, DM doesn't have to be found guilty before CN can have a bail hearing.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...or-his-return-millard-was-allegedly-escaping/

Noudga, who has no criminal record, will apply for bail. And to run her bail hearing — which will presumably take place months, if not years, before Smich and Millard's trials — the Crown will have to lay out the entire murder case against them.

"When somebody's charged with accessory after the fact to murder, you have to prove there was a murder," says Leitch.

While bail hearings are generally subject to publication bans, Leitch is still put in the position of tipping his hand to the defence about his evidence and, perhaps, strategy in the murder case, in order to properly conduct Noudga's bail hearing.

In short, CN's lawyer can say tomorrow that he wants a bail hearing and the crown would have to go into court within days and and prove a murder took place.

Somegirl · Jul 20, 2014

Carli said:
After playing with Google maps for awhile, I see what your mean, but I guess it's hard to say what routes were taken without guessing what the DM and co intentions may have been. So, let's agree that the plan was to kill somebody and steal their truck. In which case, we want to head on up the road from TB's res (1230 Trinity Rd, Ancaster) to the airport hangar, tout suite (4881 Fountain St North, Breslau) , but first with a little detour at the farm (2548 Roseville Rd, North Dumfries) to dispose of the body. At the airport they would have loaded the truck inside the trailer transport, to hide it from MillardAir employees until it is driven from the airport to DM's mother's house at 32 Tinsmith Court, Kleinburg a few days later; then either used one of the cars in the hangar or been picked up by someone to drive to the Millard home (5 Maple Gate Court, Etobicoke).

However, reportedly they were also seen in downtown Brantford and a phone was found on Oak Park Rd, outside Brantford.

According to Google maps, the portal to portal trip by the quickest route without traffic and including tolls enroute, would be 230 km (about 3 hours uninterrupted driving time. )

Res to res, NOT including Brantford would be 219 km (about 2 h 45 min uninterrupted driving time.)

Considering that you are driving a stolen vehicle which may also be transporting a dead body, is there any reason why you'd add another 15 minutes on the road?

Ancaster to the farm to the hangar (not including Brantford) is 63.2 km by the shortest route (abt 58 mins uninterrupted driving time.)

Ancaster to Brantford to the farm to the hangar is 73.7 km (abt 1.hr 13 min)

In other words, if as LE has stated TB was killed shortly after leaving his home, so that entire extra 15 minutes was spent driving a stolen vehicle with, quite possibly, their murder victim inside, through an urban environment.

I've no idea what this means, if anything. Just a bit interesting that they'd do such a risky thing without some compelling reason, IMO. IMHO. But then, I don't understand anything about this case. I still can't even figure out how they got to TB's res in the first place. That second vehicle and the third person just seems to vanish then reappear then vanish again, as needed, don't they? At least IMO.

I don't post often but here it goes. Along Oak Park Rd near the 403 Highway there is a huge and somewhat secluded lot of transport trailers (just the trailers- no trucks) and containers. I reside not too far from there and happened to be driving through one morning after dropping my son in Paris and saw the helicopters and police searching the area and later found out they found TB's phone nearby. I always thought that looked like a great place for a trailer to be waiting to load up a stolen vehicle. If they were looking for a place to do that before heading to the farm, it appears to me that the lot would be a good choice and a fairly direct route from TB's house through brantford to that spot. MO.

Alethea Dice · Jul 20, 2014

Carli said:
Thanks, ABro. Quite so. Do you know if the prosecutors requested her ruling on the LB and WM cases? Also, I think we've heard that Smich and Millard will not be jointly tried, but do we know if Millard will be tried on all three murder charges simultaneously? We don't get much press coverage of this case out here in the west beyond the west, so your research is very informative and much appreciated.

Yes, I was wondering about the possibility that Millard was being segregated from the rest of the prison population for a particular reason or reasons. If so, do you have any thoughts about why long term confinement in solitary might be in the prisoner's interests? Certainly, it is often defense who delay trials. This is just one of the cases where, reportedly, it's been hard as pulling hen's teeth to extract discovery from the prosecutors.

Oops. "Hen's teeth". If you'll can the irony, I'll try to harness the hyperbole. :truce: But that will be harder than pushing water uphill. Oops.

I believe this is the other way around. So far, it appears that DM and MS will be tried together for the TB murder since the direct indictment was approved for both. But the three murders DM is charged with will be held separately.

The three murder cases, now overseen by the OPP, are still being treated separately as Crown attorneys work out the preliminary motions in each.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/4633476-tim-bosma-murder-case-heads-straight-to-trial/

JMO

Alethea Dice · Jul 20, 2014

ABro said:
Yes, I remember you suggesting at one time that DM might have wanted to start a a cat corpse disposal business, possibly to help animal rescue groups. Maybe he thought it would be a good way to keep his fiancee occupied at their rural Ontario dream home while he was over at the hangar. Strange though that Tim Bosma's remains are reported to have ended up in this Eliminator.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?213364-The-Incinerator&p=9790031#post9790031

No, we haven't been through research showing how unlikely people charged as accessory to murder are to get bail. Maybe you'd like to provide some links. Pretty much everyone I talk to is very surprised to hear she's still in jail.

What's more the onus would be on the crown to prove a murder took place so it's the crown that would would be scrambling not the defence, who is guaranteed a bail hearing whenever they request it.

And, no, DM doesn't have to be found guilty before CN can have a bail hearing.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...or-his-return-millard-was-allegedly-escaping/

In short, CN's lawyer can say tomorrow that he wants a bail hearing and the crown would have to go into court within days and and prove a murder took place.

Can you please provide a link to the police report stating that TB's remains were indeed "in" the incinerator? I posted some a few days ago showing that Kavanagh first stated that he did not even know if the incinerator was used, and then later that he would not confirm whether it was used. I have never been able to find anything that says his remains were in the incinerator. TIA

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?240759-Tim-Bosma-Dellen-Millard-amp-Mark-Smich-chgd-w-Murder-Christina-Noudga-Accessory&p=10754055#post10754055

CN's bail hearing would need to be held in the Superior Court, not the Provincial Court, which I have always understood takes longer. It's also my understanding that the burden of proof is on the accused in a bail hearing for this type of crime.

Noudga remains in custody, and is due to appear in court again on May 5. Crown attorney Anthony Leitch told CBC News that Noudga’s bail hearing has to be handled in Superior Court because of the seriousness of the offence.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/christina-noudga-court-appearance-brings-tim-bosma-s-wife-to-tears-1.2606566

The burden of proof is presumed to be on the crown on a balance of probabilities.[1]

That is, unless the charge falls within the offences listed in s.515 (6):
<snip>
- offences punishable by life imprisonment under the CDSA

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Procedure_and_Practice/Release_and_Attendance/Judicial_Interim_Release#Onus

To be fair, Juballee did not suggest that DM would need to be found guilty before CN can have a bail hearing. What was asked was if DM would not have to be found guilty of committing a crime before CN could be found guilty of aiding in his escape from that crime.

JMO

Wondergirl · Jul 20, 2014

Somegirl said:
I don't post often but here it goes. Along Oak Park Rd near the 403 Highway there is a huge and somewhat secluded lot of transport trailers (just the trailers- no trucks) and containers. I reside not too far from there and happened to be driving through one morning after dropping my son in Paris and saw the helicopters and police searching the area and later found out they found TB's phone nearby. I always thought that looked like a great place for a trailer to be waiting to load up a stolen vehicle. If they were looking for a place to do that before heading to the farm, it appears to me that the lot would be a good choice and a fairly direct route from TB's house through brantford to that spot. MO.

Thank-You. Post of the week.

Alethea Dice · Jul 20, 2014

Somegirl said:
I don't post often but here it goes. Along Oak Park Rd near the 403 Highway there is a huge and somewhat secluded lot of transport trailers (just the trailers- no trucks) and containers. I reside not too far from there and happened to be driving through one morning after dropping my son in Paris and saw the helicopters and police searching the area and later found out they found TB's phone nearby. I always thought that looked like a great place for a trailer to be waiting to load up a stolen vehicle. If they were looking for a place to do that before heading to the farm, it appears to me that the lot would be a good choice and a fairly direct route from TB's house through brantford to that spot. MO.

Very interesting. From a walk on Google maps, it appears to be right behind the Hampton Inn (P&G Distribution Centre?).

ABro · Jul 20, 2014

Alethea Dice said:
Can you please provide a link to the police report stating that TB's remains were indeed "in" the incinerator? I posted some a few days ago showing that Kavanagh first stated that he did not even know if the incinerator was used, and then later that he would not confirm whether it was used. I have never been able to find anything that says his remains were in the incinerator. TIA

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

Police have said they believe Bosma was killed the night he was abducted and his body burned in an animal incinerator at a farm owned by Millard in Ayr, near Kitchener.

A source close to the investigation, who is not authorized to speak publicly, has told The Spectator that police believe Babcock met a similar fate. Her body has not been recovered, the source says.

Alethea Dice said:
CN's bail hearing would need to be held in the Superior Court, not the Provincial Court, which I have always understood takes longer. It's also my understanding that the burden of proof is on the accused in a bail hearing for this type of crime.

It doesn't take anywhere near three months. I said the onus of proving there was a murder is on the crown. If CN is simply the university student in the wrong place at the wrong time that Juballee suggested she was, then her bail hearing would hardly be complicated for her lawyer. If the crown has a more complex case against her, well then, yes, we start to understand why her lawyer might have chosen not to apply for bail.

Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

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