Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

MsAnais · Jul 21, 2014

catswhiskers said:
I think we could say with some certainty that the wheelbarrow wasn't treated as evidence and tested. I was also surprised to read that the doctor who performed the autopsy simply concluded that the wounds were consistent with suicide. I seriously doubt he would have ever examined a suicide victim with a wound caused by a large knife jammed into a window frame where the victim had propelled themselves onto the knife with the force and/or speed required to kill themselves. It's a mighty strange conclusion to reach imo.

It's such a strange and grotesque way to suggest this young woman would have taken her own life. Why that way? Why outside the house in broad daylight, on a board, wrapped in plastic with a makeshift hood on her head?
Why dressed in exercise gear and a sun hat!! Good grief.

Exactly! It just doesn't fit with all the data on female suicide. It's a very violent, brutal way to die - much more masculine IMO. But even then, how many males kill themselves like that? Even when men do it violently, they choose a method that's far more likely to have success eg. shooting self in mouth, jumping from cliff, crashing car into tree.

Running up and impaling yourself on a knife seems incredibly risky and uncertain to me - the person can't be sure they wouldn't just injure themselves. And one thing I've learned from working with suicidal people, is that when they really want to do it, they choose a method that's about as definite as you can get. They don't want to keep living with a new disability on top of everything.

Ausgirl · Jul 21, 2014

whiskers - she wasn't wrapped in plastic, the sheet was a fitted bed sheet draped over her head and tied around the neck with a bathrobe cord. The 'plastic' was only mentioned by Paul Cook, along with a stab wound to her throat that didn't exist either (according to the coroner).

Now what's highly hinky about all this is -- PC admits he touched her body -- first, he admitted touching only her LIPS (he *moved* her lips, wtf) and that was all. But later he admits he touched her arm - tried to move it but it was too stiff with rigor mortis and it wouldn't move.

I think maybe the paramedics might have noticed the lividity discrepancy on her arm, ie, that it had been moved after death (though she was supposedly a suicide and alone all day) and so he got asked if he'd touched her arm... so he's changed his story maybe, to try and explain without knowing exactly why they were asking (and so trips himself up, in my eyes).

Anyway, if he's all up alongside the body of his wife, "moving her lips" for whatever reason and then tryig to move her arm -- he's for sure close enough to see there's NO plastic and NO cut throat. So why's he saying this, to his friend, on the night of her death? Maybe to make it seem like he got things wrong, heard things second-hand and wasn't close to her body at all. I can't imagine how or why he'd flub those details, otherwise.

Makara · Jul 21, 2014

Ausgirl said:
Okay - there's something not right about this, as well...

Professor Williams was asked whether there were any other wounds on the body of Ms Cook as Ms Pullen stated that she saw a cut near Ms Cooks larynx when she viewed the body at the funeral. Professor Williams said there was definitely no other wound and was of the view that any other cut seen post autopsy would have been the result of the autopsy.

--keeping in mind that the autopsy didn't occur until the next day, and Cook left the scene at about 9.30 pm the night of her death to stay with this friend for the night:

Mr Ries stated that Mr Cook told him (ETA: on the same day she was found) that Ms Cook had cuts on her hands and wounds on her neck and that she had impaled herself on a knife and severed her windpipe

You're ahead of me Ausgirl, I was just about to post the same thing.

Just wondering what Keiran Ash's initial reaction would have been and how Mark Ainsworth would have handled this one! I reckon there would have been a totally different outcome.

catswhiskers · Jul 21, 2014

Suicide in this way makes me think of hara-kiri, but for someone who is worried that they won't be able to stab the knife with their own hands. I'm thinking if someone is that nervous or squeamish, there would be faster and less ghastly means to take your own life.

The only thing that has made me hesitate when reading about Jenny's death, is the mention of her being a 'cutter' in her medical history. I have no idea whether or not that practice makes someone more likely to commit suicide, but maybe it does give us a little more insight into her depression.

Even so, the other information available now from her parents and the coronial inquest about how her case was handled is enough to warrant more of a look into how she really did die. It might be that time spent observing ABC's case unfold is going to make people look closely at the deaths of women whose husbands claim suicide as the cause.

Makara · Jul 21, 2014

Cattail said:
He still wouldn't be doing medical checks regularly though. It wasn't a routine thing for him.

Editing to add this is in relation to my last post where I said most non medical people would check the chest area for heartbeat so how did he not feel the blood

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And when he phoned the ambulance wasn't be told to administer CPR? He didn't of course.

MadDoc · Jul 21, 2014

Ausgirl said:
-- 2nd and 3rd ribs - is kind of low? Unless she wanted to die from a punctured lung (omg painful) - If you wanted to die quickly via a single impaled stab wound, wouldn't you try higher - ie, for the heart?

Ribs are counted from top down, so 2nd/3rd ribs are actually quite high - 2nd rib would be not far below the collar bone. A stab wound in the area of the 2nd/3rd ribs might hit the large blood vessels at the top of the heart (aorta and pulmonary arteries/veins) but a direct hit on the heart itself would have to be around the level of the 4th to 6th ribs.

Source of pic: Google Images

MsAnais · Jul 21, 2014

catswhiskers said:
Suicide in this way makes me think of hara-kiri, but for someone who is worried that they won't be able to stab the knife with their own hands. I'm thinking if someone is that nervous or squeamish, there would be faster and less ghastly means to take your own life.

The only thing that has made me hesitate when reading about Jenny's death, is the mention of her being a 'cutter' in her medical history. I have no idea whether or not that practice makes someone more likely to commit suicide, but maybe it does give us a little more insight into her depression.

Even so, the other information available now from her parents and the coronial inquest about how her case was handled is enough to warrant more of a look into how she really did die. It might be that time spent observing ABC's case unfold is going to make people look closely at the deaths of women whose husbands claim suicide as the cause.

I have worked with many adolescents who are 'cutters'. Self-harm is very different to attempting suicide or even wanting to die. They cut to relieve emotional pressure - often these people are feeling great emotional pain (or conversely they are feeling numb) and the cutting of their flesh is like an outlet for them to vent emotion. It's hard to explain as it doesn't necessarily 'make sense' to people who aren't into self-harm. I have helped many a teenager clean up after cutting - it's not about wanting to die at all.

Obviously, I'm not aware of the ins and outs of Jenny's psychological state - but if she was cutting as a form of self harm, it doesn't mean she's in any way going to impale herself on a knife to die. JMO.

Ausgirl · Jul 21, 2014

Ooh okay - thanks so much, MadDoc!

If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of the lack of blood on the wall, as well as a single drop of blood in the stones under the window? Considering there's no way the weapon could have remained in her wound to plug it up, wouldn't there be a lot of blood around the area where the weapon was fixed to the window grill?

Makara · Jul 21, 2014

catswhiskers said:
I think we could say with some certainty that the wheelbarrow wasn't treated as evidence and tested. I was also surprised to read that the doctor who performed the autopsy simply concluded that the wounds were consistent with suicide. I seriously doubt he would have ever examined a suicide victim with a wound caused by a large knife jammed into a window frame where the victim had propelled themselves onto the knife with the force and/or speed required to kill themselves. It's a mighty strange conclusion to reach imo.

It's such a strange and grotesque way to suggest this young woman would have taken her own life. Why that way? Why outside the house in broad daylight, on a board, wrapped in plastic with a makeshift hood on her head?
Why dressed in exercise gear and a sun hat!! Good grief.

BBM: Seriously, how does a knife wound to the chest indicate suicide? Yes, it may indicate that it was the cause of death, but that it was suicide? Nup, I don't buy that one!

catswhiskers · Jul 21, 2014

Ausgirl said:
Ooh okay - thanks so much, MadDoc!

If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of the lack of blood on the wall, as well as a single drop of blood in the stones under the window? Considering there's no way the weapon could have remained in her wound to plug it up, wouldn't there be a lot of blood around the area where the weapon was fixed to the window grill?

I know you weren't asking me, but perhaps there isn't necessarily any blood projected out of a single wound? I know we hear about lots of cast off blood being having been spread around crime scenes where there a victim has been stabbed multiple times and blood is being literally thrown about with each movement of the knife, but it kind of makes sense to me that there mightn't be any blood on the window or house exterior from that single deep wound.

Makara · Jul 21, 2014

Ausgirl said:
whiskers - she wasn't wrapped in plastic, the sheet was a fitted bed sheet draped over her head and tied around the neck with a bathrobe cord. The 'plastic' was only mentioned by Paul Cook, along with a stab wound to her throat that didn't exist either (according to the coroner).

Now what's highly hinky about all this is -- PC admits he touched her body -- first, he admitted touching only her LIPS (he *moved* her lips, wtf) and that was all. But later he admits he touched her arm - tried to move it but it was too stiff with rigor mortis and it wouldn't move.

I think maybe the paramedics might have noticed the lividity discrepancy on her arm, ie, that it had been moved after death (though she was supposedly a suicide and alone all day) and so he got asked if he'd touched her arm... so he's changed his story maybe, to try and explain without knowing exactly why they were asking (and so trips himself up, in my eyes).

Anyway, if he's all up alongside the body of his wife, "moving her lips" for whatever reason and then tryig to move her arm -- he's for sure close enough to see there's NO plastic and NO cut throat. So why's he saying this, to his friend, on the night of her death? Maybe to make it seem like he got things wrong, heard things second-hand and wasn't close to her body at all. I can't imagine how or why he'd flub those details, otherwise.

BBM: He never was up close to her body at all IMO.

wewillgetyou · Jul 21, 2014

I've just caught up on this after reading about it this morning.

I have to say what a totally bizarre case .....

Talk about police incompetence. I believe her husband ( Paul Cook ) may have been in the army. I wonder if any training from that came in handy

catswhiskers · Jul 21, 2014

I keep thinking of questions about this strange case - I wish I could interrogate someone!

I'll have to go back and read the inquest findings again, but I wonder if the height of the knife in the window frame matched the height of the wound exactly? I know I saw that the autopsy findings said the wound was 135cm from Jenny's heels.

That bloody knife really is a key piece of evidence, and it's just unbelievable that it was destroyed!

Makara · Jul 21, 2014

'Jenny's voice heard'

Samantha Healy
Townsville Bulletin
December 07, 201312:00AM

LORRAINE Pullen says her daughter's voice has finally been heard despite a coroner being unable to determine if her death was suicide or homicide.

Ms Bentley did not find the actions of lead investigator, Detective Sergeant Kay Osborn, amounted to official misconduct but said the police commissioner should consider whether her actions amounted to non-compliance of police policy or if action should be taken with regards to the inadequacy of the *investigation.

She also criticised the Queensland Police Service for *ignoring, or only partially complying with, directions from her office.

Mrs Pullen said she was confident the truth would come out.

BBM.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...nnys-voice-heard/story-fnjfzs7u-1226777399772

laserdisc10 · Jul 21, 2014

catswhiskers said:
I keep thinking of questions about this strange case - I wish I could interrogate someone!

I'll have to go back and read the inquest findings again, but I wonder if the height of the knife in the window frame matched the height of the wound exactly? I know I saw that the autopsy findings said the wound was 135cm from Jenny's heels.

That bloody knife really is a key piece of evidence, and it's just unbelievable that it was destroyed!

The US cold-case shows I've watched quite often show boxes of evidence from cases twenty, thirty or more years old, complete with clothing and other items. We in Australia must be several decades behind the US when it comes to preservation of evidence if the Townsville case is any indication. Twenty hours after the first phone call to police was made by PC, the crime scene was released. And the weapon was destroyed. Townsville policing must be on a par with an isolated village deep in the Amazon. But do I believe the Jenny Cook case is typical of policing in regional Australia? No. I think there was a cover-up. And it seems there were several individuals involved. Seems so to me, at least. It stinks

wewillgetyou · Jul 21, 2014

This 'non identified female person' referred to in the inquest report I find interesting. Why are they not identified ?

laserdisc10 · Jul 21, 2014

wewillgetyou said:
This 'non identified female person' referred to in the inquest report I find interesting. Why are they not identified ?

Police officer?

Ausgirl · Jul 21, 2014

Makara said:
BBM: He never was up close to her body at all IMO.

Ohhh well that's an interesting take..please elaborate?

Just a few notes here on Paul Cook's whereabouts at his lunch hour that day:

Called her today to get the email address for Action Electronics but she didn’t answer so went there in lunch break;

11.45am left work to pay bill;

Paid it on credit card then got back to work 10 minutes late for first session.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/217931/cif-cook-jl-20131206.pdf

He admits that he'd set off for work that morning barely speaking to her, and later that day told a colleague that his marriage was over. Asked about his movements, Cook tells police that he left his job as a prison guard at Townsville Correctional Centre about midday to pay a bill at a computer shop for repairs to his laptop, then returned to the jail about 12.30pm. Strangely, the credit card payment receipt in his wallet shows the bill was paid at 12.23pm - giving him the almost impossible task of travelling the eight or so kilometres back to the jail, negotiating a number of intersections and traffic lights, by 12.30pm. He also tells police that he had sent an email to the shop, but the shop has no record of receiving any such email that day.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html#ixzz3865WRjRZ

Cook told police that his movements could be easily confirmed by the jail's CCTV cameras. But detectives never checked, and in any case, renovations were being undertaken at the jail at the time and the cameras at the entry and exit gates weren't working. Jail logbooks, which had Cook entering the jail at 7.30 on the morning of his wife's death and leaving at 12.49pm, were also incomplete, with no record of him re-entering the prison that day.

Maderline Ronan, another prison employee who was rostered on with Cook that day, described him in her statement to the inquest as "very quiet" and didn't know where he was between 11am and 1.30pm. Later in the afternoon, Cook told her he had a headache and finished up early, around 5.30pm. This raised questions about where he had been until 6.45pm, when he arrived home, as the drive between the jail and Sheerwater Parade is about 15 minutes. (Jenny Lee was suspected of dying some time between 8am and 2pm, according to the autopsy.)

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html#ixzz3867khVpe

catswhiskers · Jul 21, 2014

I'm thinking that evidence wasn't preserved because of the hasty suicide finding, which in turn suited the lack of investigation. I guess they can't keep materials from every suicide and accidental death - so determining that Jenny's death was simply a suicide, and totally ignoring other evidence and usual police protocols (you'd think) were serious errors.
Even if powers that be deemed that this case was handled incorrectly and they now suspected murder, I wonder how they could proceed without any evidence at all??

MsAnais · Jul 21, 2014

catswhiskers said:
I'm thinking that evidence wasn't preserved because of the hasty suicide finding, which in turn suited the lack of investigation. I guess they can't keep materials from every suicide and accidental death - so determining that Jenny's death was simply a suicide, and totally ignoring other evidence and usual police protocols (you'd think) were serious errors.
Even if powers that be deemed that this case was handled incorrectly and they now suspected murder, I wonder how they could proceed without any evidence at all??

BBM. Oh, you're right!!:facepalm: I hadn't even thought of that.........

Oh, that seems terrible. I hate the thought of whoever did this just getting away with it.

Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

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