Trial Discussion Thread #48

About a week left for PT to file their arguments, hope they're getting it nice and tight!

Cherwell said:

If that were to happen, I think a lot of people would suspect that money and influence had brought about such a result.



Mmm hmm.

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BIB, for those that have followed celebrity justice, I think we all know that there are two types of justice. One for the common folk who get a court appointed attorney and one for the rich.

In the world, money talks and no where is this more true than in Africa. I was born in Africa and left at a very early age, but my parents would always tell me about how everything was about bribes. Got stopped for speeding, pull out your wallet and offer a bribe or risk facing a night in jail.

OP alluded to this in his latest nightclub incident when he said that his family had Zuma in their back pocket. That's quite a bit of power at their disposal so while the evidence may seem to suggest his guilt, there is no guarantee as to just how this trial will play out.

vansleuths said:

BIB, for those that have followed celebrity justice, I think we all know that there are two types of justice. One for the common folk who get a court appointed attorney and one for the rich.

In the world, money talks and no where is this more true than in Africa. I was born in Africa and left at a very early age, but my parents would always tell me about how everything was about bribes. Got stopped for speeding, pull out your wallet and offer a bribe or risk facing a night in jail.

OP alluded to this in his latest nightclub incident when he said that his family had Zuma in their back pocket. That's quite a bit of power at their disposal so while the evidence may seem to suggest his guilt, there is no guarantee as to just how this trial will play out.

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Well if that were true (and I'm skeptical as I think the South African Justice system is also on trial somewhat with such media coverage) then it would be in the appeal processes. Although I'm making an assumption, I don't see Masipa to be the bribing type!

eimajjjj said:

Well if that were true (and I'm skeptical as I think the South African Justice system is also on trial somewhat with such media coverage) then it would be in the appeal processes. Although I'm making an assumption, I don't see Masipa to be the bribing type!

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BIB I don't see Masipa as the bribing type either. In fact, she appears to be very fair and an advocate of woman's rights having said in another case that women have the right to feel safe in their own home.

But, let's just say, it wouldn't surprise me OP is shown leniency. We just have to look at the bail judge who said that he felt that OP, an accused murder, was entitled to bail. He did preface his statement by saying he wasn't setting precedence and that each case had to be looked at on its own merits, but we know this was already an unusual decision to have a potential murder out on bail.

OPs case was also fast tracked, whereas most people facing trials in SA lament in prison for years waiting for a court date, even if they are innocent.

Yes, the media is forcing the South African legal system to put their best foot forward, but in doing so, they are also showing their inequities because this is not the justice that most citizens receive.

vansleuths said:

BIB I don't see Masipa as the bribing type either. In fact, she appears to be very fair and an advocate of woman's rights having said in another case that women have the right to feel safe in their own home.

But, let's just say, it wouldn't surprise me OP is shown leniency. We just have to look at the bail judge who said that he felt that OP, an accused murder, was entitled to bail. He did preface his statement by saying he wasn't setting precedence and that each case had to be looked at on its own merits, but we know this was already an unusual decision to have a potential murder out on bail.

OPs case was also fast tracked, whereas most people facing trials in SA lament in prison for years waiting for a court date, even if they are innocent.

Yes, the media is forcing the South African legal system to put their best foot forward, but in doing so, they are also showing their inequities because this is not the justice that most citizens receive.

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I genuinely think we're going to be surprised with Masipa's decision. For the opposite reason. It will be far harsher than I think anyone expects. Her integrity, history and meticulous detail to OP getting a fair trial (to avoid any later whining) is setting up some massive justice to be handed out IMO. And I think part of that will be to dispel this idea that the rich and famous will escape justice.

Saying that though, who knows what the appeal process will bring.

eimajjjj said:

I genuinely think we're going to be surprised with Masipa's decision. For the opposite reason. It will be far harsher than I think anyone expects. Her integrity, history and meticulous detail to OP getting a fair trial (to avoid any later whining) is setting up some massive justice to be handed out IMO. And I think part of that will be to dispel this idea that the rich and famous will escape justice.

Saying that though, who knows what the appeal process will bring.

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I hope you are right. So far OP has had, as far as I can see, special dispensation on more than one occasion. He was allowed to stay at the police station rather than go to prison whilst waiting for the bail hearing. The bail hearing gave him permission to live with his uncle. Bail for premedidated murder just does not happen to ordinary people in SA. In two weeks 95 per cent of his bail restrictions were lifted. He did not become an inpatient at Westkoppies which is the norm for assessment. I hope Masipa cannot be nobbled from above. She certainly has handed out some stiff sentences but as far as I can see, NOT to whites (I stand to be corrected if I am wrong). I do hope she comes good.

Interested Bystander said:

I hope you are right. So far OP has had, as far as I can see, special dispensation on more than one occasion. He was allowed to stay at the police station rather than go to prison whilst waiting for the bail hearing. The bail hearing gave him permission to live with his uncle. Bail for premedidated murder just does not happen to ordinary people in SA. In two weeks 95 per cent of his bail restrictions were lifted. He did not become an inpatient at Westkoppies which is the norm for assessment. I hope Masipa cannot be nobbled from above. She certainly has handed out some stiff sentences but as far as I can see, NOT to whites (I stand to be corrected if I am wrong). I do hope she comes good.

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How do you know she hasn't "handed out stiff sentences to whites"? Or that she wouldn't?

All the above leniency hasn't been due to Masipa. Let's not mix-up Masipa and other bail/appeal judges. There is no reason in my opinion or evidence that I can see to suggest she won't go as hard in OP as she has in the past.

eimajjjj said:

How do you know she hasn't "handed out stiff sentences to whites"? Or that she wouldn't?

All the above leniency hasn't been due to Masipa. Let's not mix-up Masipa and other bail/appeal judges. There is no reason in my opinion or evidence that I can see to suggest she won't go as hard in OP as she has in the past.

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BiB1 I have attempted to find the trials she has judged. I certainly don't say she wouldn't want to. My concern is that she will be nobbled from above. I thought I had made that clear.

I am fully aware of what has happened in the trial and I did not suggest at any time that Masipa was involved in what happened before the trial. That is an incorrect assumption on your part. My point being that there appears to be a fairly reasonable assumption that strings have been pulled for OP before the trial and I have no reason to think it will not continue. Hence my comment that I hope she comes good, ie that nobody in the hierarchy puts pressure on her. She does seem above that to me and has tried to be very fair though I think OP should have been an inpatient for 30 days as so much more can be learned of psychiatric disorders as an inpatient. However, I think she did that for expediency in order to get the trial over and not for OP's sake.

Interested Bystander said:

BiB1 I have attempted to find the trials she has judged.

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Could you share your findings?

"No one is above the law." - Judge Thokozile Masipa

To those who might think Judge Masipa is some fluffy, bleeding-heart pushover - DO NOT underestimate her. Do not mistake quietness and equitable, fair-minded allowances and kindnesses for weakness. Still waters run deep. She’s the silent hawk, perched in a tree, watching, waiting...before diving for the kill. She has not missed one single thing. She has put similar men away for life*.

I fully believe that she will lay the hammer down on OP. Murder directus.

Shocked Oscar will then have a genuine reason to wail and puke. His green bucket should go very nicely with his orange prison attire.


* ... Masipa handed down a two-hundred-and-fifty-two-year prison sentence to a man who raped three women in the course of home burglaries; in another, she gave a life sentence to a policeman who shot and killed his estranged wife in an argument over their divorce settlement. (“You deserve to go to jail for life because you are not a protector. You are a killer,” Masipa told him.) Her perspective could prove crucial in the Pistorius case, in which the prosecution has told a story of a man, quick to anger and reckless with guns, shooting his girlfriend after a quarrel, while the defense has drawn a picture of a boyfriend who loved Steenkamp and so would never hurt her, and tragically mistook her for an intruder. Both might see something in a comment that Masipa made, according to South Africa’s CTVNews, in the rape case: “The worst, in my view, is that he attacked and raped the victims in the sanctity of their own homes, where they thought they were safe.” ...
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-woman-who-will-judge-oscar-pistorius

... she has a reputation for tough rulings. ... "She comes down very hard in cases of violence against women...”
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/the-woman-who-will-decide-oscar-pistorius-fate-1.1764771#ixzz30qidVrJa

Val1 said:

This is why I wish Nel had dipped into the apparent "cover-up" activities shortly after OP killed RS. Surely the evidence we already have points to premeditation(thought he could get away with it in the few moments it took to get his gun and shoot her dead)? Garbage bags, twist ties, then the possibly unlocked and running car sitting in the driveway(didn't quiz the Standers or bring into evidence any of that iirc), an open front door, turning off the alarm so as not to trigger it and cause all and everyone to come running, all points to the ability to getting a body out quickly and quietly into that car, a few quick calls to your closest and most loyal friends, including the head of security for your complex to possibly ensure you could get out the gate without having to log it and for the cameras to perhaps conveniently be "accidentally" off-line(gee, why not just scrub it all for any entries after RS had left the first time), oh and your immigrant "housekeeper" that has cleaned up your "messes" for the last 2+ years awake and in the street shortly after 3am, who supposedly didn't hear or know anything about that whole night(heck maybe he wasn't even aware that his "boss" was in town that week eh?...but we'll never know officially now) while you had perhaps spent the night at your best friend's(see phone calls) after a "boys night" out and had been too tired to drive home, see "training" schedule.

Yea, I can hear the lament now...
RS is missing oh my, but she was supposed to have gone to the movies... she must have been hijacked while driving home which I told her never to do.... now I don't want that house close to where she was temporarily staying with friends after all, you know, the one that I couldn't really afford but I was buying it for her ...

That buying a house to be close to someone and then claiming or insinuating that you were going to be living together in it doesn't make any sense to start with, if that was true, it shouldn't matter where the house was. Nevermind that he'd been in the market for the previous couple of years to both sell his house and buy another one in town...
:moo:

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I wish more was made of the apparent "cover up" too. It seems that Nel didn't have much evidence to support it, and I guess what he did have calls for too much speculation. But I don't think it could've pointed towards premeditation anyway, since premeditation only includes his actions and/or thought process beforehand, not afterwards. If there was evidence of garbage bags, towels, tape, and a running car all ready to go before he had shot her, it'd be open and shut IMO.

But the fact that OP told security "everything is fine," the Standers had parked at the end of the driveway, Carice stood at the front door blocking the entry, and OP insisted that Reeva be taken to the hospital rather than waiting for an ambulance sure tells me that he wanted her out of his house pronto! I think Dr. Stipp's uninvited, prompt arrival botched that plan. I'm not sure I buy the theory that he wanted to hide her body, but I do think he wanted her taken away to give himself time to do whatever he needed to do with with evidence to solidify his intruder story before the police showed up.

MOO

eimajjjj said:

I genuinely think we're going to be surprised with Masipa's decision. For the opposite reason. It will be far harsher than I think anyone expects. Her integrity, history and meticulous detail to OP getting a fair trial (to avoid any later whining) is setting up some massive justice to be handed out IMO. And I think part of that will be to dispel this idea that the rich and famous will escape justice.

Saying that though, who knows what the appeal process will bring.

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You are exactly correct, Eimajjjj! Judge Masipa has gone out of her way to insure a scrupulously FAIR trial. She absolutely does not suffer rape, domestic violence and murder with a bleeding heart. Personally, I think she reached her decision long ago (OP’s entire testimony was clearly an eye-opening moment! lol)

Watching her in key portions of the trial (even with her usually terrific poker face), I’ve noticed certain very subtle but telling facial expressions and demeanor, including:

“WTFSERIOUSLY?!!”

“omgareyoureallythatstupid?!!”

“ISOwanttostepdownandslapyourlyingface!”

“STFUstopyourhowlingandpukingyoumakemyearshurtandgivemeamigraine!”

“doIlooklikeachump,Oz?”

“pleasekeeptalkingOscarIsoenjoywatchingakillernailhiscoffinshut ”

“IamgoingtototallyNAILyourlyingazztothewall!!”

BEWARE of tiny, very quiet judges.

I suspect she’s got a huge, brand new cricket bat under her desk with OP’s name on it.

JUSTICE SEEKERS - March 29 - DailyMail ##########NOTES FOR VALENTINE'S DAY SPEECH REEVA STEENKAMP NEVER MADE##########Below are the rough notes Miss Steenkamp made for the speech at Sandown High School, a co-educational government school in Johannesburg.They are reproduced exactly as she wrote them.#########################################################"Who received flowers/chocolates/cards/messages/tweets/etc today (February 14) for Valentine's Day?Tell them what I received, make a small joke about this. And then tell them that receiving those things is very special but not receiving anything doesn't define you as a person or make you less valued!!!###############1. I was raised on a small farm just outside of Cape Town. In a way I was blessed and privileged to be away from the pressures of city life and I grew up to appreciate the simpler things above the superficial.###############2. I will chat about life on the farm, having no money but being blessed with amazing parents who never allowed me to be aware of my circumstances. Some 'looking back now' points somewhere after this would fit in###############.3. After moving to PE and deciding to study Law despite our financial situation, I worked hard to be acknowledged as one of the top 15 per cent academics at university so that my studies could be 80% covered by bursaries and I worked to pay off the rest.###############4. I broke my back towards the end of varsity. Learnt mobility again and made a massive life decision with regards to my career. I will elaborate on this part of my journey.###############5. I was in an abusive relationship at the same time (his mother used to abuse him) and all together these factors encouraged my move to Jozi.###############6. Despite my height disadvantage and the difficulty in general of breaking into the modeling industry, I put my head down and worked hard towards my dream.###############7. I lost a lot of self worth during my last year in PE before I moved to Jozi and it took some serious soul searching to remind myself of my value in this world.###############8. Being loved by others, although an amazing feeling to have the appreciation of others, does not define your place in the world.###############9. Accept who you are. Acknowledge your absolute 'CAN DOS' in life and work on your 'MAYBES' so that you can be a better person for the ultimate upliftment of those around you.###############10. No matter how many people say that they 'love' you, if you do not love your person then you will never step outside of the physical you. The physical you can only do so much if your mental you is lost inside of all the confusion.###############11. Be brave. Always see the positive. Make your voice heard. Your physical seen. And the presence of your mental you felt. Its that culmination of your person that will leave a legacy and uplift.###############12. I hope that you have the most amazing VD and that you are spoilt with love and roses and chocolates. Go home and tell your parents, siblings, neighbours that they are appreciated. You will go to bed with a happy heart and open mind for the future

vansleuths said:

BIB. If Massipa was to find that OP's actions were reasonable on that night and that he acted in self defence and acquitted him on all charges, should "society not welcome him back with open arms."

Just playing devil's advocate

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He is a killer. A self-confessed killer. And even if (in the unlikely chance) it is ruled an accident, all his skeletons have come out of the closet for all of society to see. He has a history of reckless behavior - drunk boating accident, self-admitted speed freak, he ran over someone's pet..and then put a bullet through its head, he shot through an open sunroof, he shot in a crowded restaurant, he assaulted Taylor-Memmory, he was in possession of unlicensed .38 special ammo, he pulled a gun on his washing machine, as well as on his friend Azzie..because he made a noise getting a drink of water in the middle of the night. He also has a history of threatening people - he told Van der Burgh (who had to get a restraining order against him) that he'd "f#©k him up," he told Batchelor that he'd break his legs, and he snarled "how do you sleep at night" to Gina Myers as he exited the courtroom.........the guy is a loose cannon.

Even if he isn't deemed a danger to society by a court of law, society knows what he has done, and society knows what he is capable of. Acquittal or conviction, he does not possess the qualities or character traits of someone society is likely to "welcome back with open arms."

MOO

Greater Than said:

He is a killer. A self-confessed killer. And even if (in the unlikely chance) it is ruled an accident, all his skeletons have come out of the closet for all of society to see. He has a history of reckless behavior - drunk boating accident, self-admitted speed freak, he ran over someone's pet..and then put a bullet through its head, he shot through an open sunroof, he shot in a crowded restaurant, he assaulted Taylor-Memmory, he was in possession of unlicensed .38 special ammo, he pulled a gun on his washing machine, as well as on his friend Azzie..because he made a noise getting a drink of water in the middle of the night. He also has a history of threatening people - he told Van der Burgh (who had to get a restraining order against him) that he'd "f#©k him up," he told Batchelor that he'd break his legs, and he snarled "how do you sleep at night" to Gina Myers as he exited the courtroom.........the guy is a loose cannon.

Even if he isn't deemed a danger to society by a court of law, society knows what he has done, and society knows what he is capable of. Acquittal or conviction, he does not possess the qualities or character traits of someone society is likely to "welcome back with open arms."

MOO

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Sadly, this won't be the case.

Society, frankly, is mostly comprised of morons more obsessed with the goings-on of celebrity lives than current events. The media will soon be back peddling controversy and likely back to normal with him eventually, because it will sell newspapers and get website hits.

People will mostly have forgotten in a couple of years. PR and marketing, hell of a thing, eh?

Wow, thank you, Foxbluff..

Where on earth did you find this? Can you provide a link?

thank you in advance

eimajjjj said:

About a week left for PT to file their arguments, hope they're getting it nice and tight!

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Well..................I'm trying my best to watch the whole trial again on youtube.

At the moment i'm up to Day 5 Part 1 of Dr.Stipps testimony.
The fun starts at 39.40 mins after roux sits down.

Nel is 'laughing' at the defence version and saying to Stipp....'it gets better'.
He's challenged by Masipa/and Roux but gives her no time whatsoever apart from a cursory 'sorry m'lady' then carries on lol.

He's made to say 'it gets better for the state' version then like the smiling assassin carries on.

Poor Roux tries at least 3 times to counter this Knock out blow but fails miserably IMO ...............classic NEL.

O/T Grrh... now I can't get reply w/quote to come up!!This is @Kittychi... thank you so very much... you can't imagine how much I appreciate your post... I was really needing a little attention today! Here's the link for RS's proposed V.Day speech... not at all what I had expected, btw.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-previous-abusive-relationship-shooting.html

vansleuths said:

BIB I don't see Masipa as the bribing type either. In fact, she appears to be very fair and an advocate of woman's rights having said in another case that women have the right to feel safe in their own home.

But, let's just say, it wouldn't surprise me OP is shown leniency. We just have to look at the bail judge who said that he felt that OP, an accused murder, was entitled to bail. He did preface his statement by saying he wasn't setting precedence and that each case had to be looked at on its own merits, but we know this was already an unusual decision to have a potential murder out on bail.

OPs case was also fast tracked, whereas most people facing trials in SA lament in prison for years waiting for a court date, even if they are innocent.

Yes, the media is forcing the South African legal system to put their best foot forward, but in doing so, they are also showing their inequities because this is not the justice that most citizens receive.

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Serious riots if he's aquitted then IYO