Trial Discussion Thread #48

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K.T said:
Who did he meet in the early morning?
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I don't think there's anything significant in it. If you leave early to avoid the rush hour, it usually results in arriving much earlier than you need to be. Hence he had some time to kill. (no pun intended)

Why does Greyvenstein and Divarus appear to lie about Steenkamps intentions?
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I haven't really studied their evidence, but quite possibly they, like many others, believed in him at first and wanted to help him out, but have since seen through him.

Or, why does Valerie Berkow-Kaye exaggerate about his 'non-intentional' demeanour and presence at her company event?
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She just sounds like a star-struck person impressed by his celebrity and charm. Remember this was very early on. The initial reports were that this was all a terrible accident yadda yadda.

Note how the Telegraph contradicts itself in the same paragraph!

An estate agent who attended a party with Pistorius on the evening of Feb 13 — hours before the shooting said he was “delightful, charming and happy”.
Valerie Berkow-Kaye said: “We were all mesmerised by such a smiley, delightful person. He certainly wasn’t planning a murder on Wednesday afternoon.”
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Greater Than said:
IMO, the approval of the media application to broadcast the trial live is what will ensure justice is served. The world is watching. The judge who approved the application specifically mentioned in his ruling that broadcasting will provide the public with the opportunity to see that there are no inequalities within SA's justice system in regards to the privileged:

OP was released on bail and later had his bail restrictions lifted prior to the media order. Maybe I'm being naive, but I can't help but think that if the bail hearing and appeal hearing were on center stage like the trial is, that those judges wouldn't have been so lenient.

I also have my own suspicion that the fierce opposition by the DT to allow broadcasting has much to do with this very topic. MOO
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I wish I shared your confidence.

I have trust and confidence in Judge Masipa, and I don't see any chance of an acquittal. I think he will be found guilty of all charges and given a heavy jail sentence.

It's what comes afterwards that gives cause for concern. Because once the trial is over, and verdict and sentence delivered, public interest will drop. The world won't be watching any more.

Pistorius will be granted leave to appeal, he will be allowed bail and will continue his life of luxury, holidaying where he pleases etc etc. This may go on for a long time pending delay after delay, and eventually money and influence will swing things so that he escapes jail altogether. But most people will be unaware of this.

What I hope Judge Masipa does is find him guilty on all the firearms charges, sentence him to the maximum jail term, and refuse him leave to appeal THOSE charges. Then at least he will spend some time where he deserves to be.
 
That would be great. Let him appeal but from inside for the gun charges. I wonder though if that also can be appealed (immediate incarceration for the gun charges).
 
eimajjjj said:
That would be great. Let him appeal but from inside for the gun charges. I wonder though if that also can be appealed (immediate incarceration for the gun charges).
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This would be doubly difficult for him if he has a back-up plan to leave the country and not come back (Mozambique?).
 
eimajjjj said:
That would be great. Let him appeal but from inside for the gun charges. I wonder though if that also can be appealed (immediate incarceration for the gun charges).
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Theoretically they can be appealed, but there was scarcely any defence put forward, and in the case of the illegally-held ammunition, there was none. And in the restaurant case, OP's own texts convict him.
 
eimajjjj said:
Here's an interesting read about the witness timelines and prosecution case. Not much new stuff other than the last paragraph that suggests the first set of sounds was OP firing out of the window and that the bat was just never heard:
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~rsbm~

Crikey, there's a thought .. :eek:
 
jay-jay said:
~rsbm~

Crikey, there's a thought .. :eek:
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I always thought that could have happened, but the State don't seem to have entertained it, so perhaps it's been forensically disproved (don't ask me how)
 
Cherwell said:
I always thought that could have happened, but the State don't seem to have entertained it, so perhaps it's been forensically disproved (don't ask me how)
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It would explain why Stipp heard gunshots both times, and why the cricket bat forensically looks like it came after the shots. Would also explain RS's terrified screams and them coming from the hallway not toilet.
 
kaos said:
Oh K.T. You really should :D There's a markable difference in his clarity and attitude when he's rattling off his own testimony to Roux compared to the memory lapses and argumentative nature he uses towards Nel. I'm going over OP's testimony again now and have lost count of the amount of times he's tried to slip in 'tampering' into his CE and it's not just the word 'tampering' that he uses. Every single time he mentions it, it's "tampered, disturbed and contaminated".

A bit I noticed yesterday was OP saying to Nel there would be people coming to testify how well him and Reeva got along yet the only defence witnesses that alluded to that were his coach and Prof Derman yet neither of those even met Reeva from my recollection?

I hope Nel also addresses that during OP's CE, he constantly whinged about his watches going missing, the police traipsing through his house touching things, them not wearing protective clothing etc as if they had no right to be interfering in his life. Never mentioning at any point that Reeva and her family were entitled to justice, that Reeva and her family were entitled to a better police investigation. As per usual, it was all about Oscar.
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BIB BTW there's no proof of those watches being stolen . Is there a before and after photo of the watchbox.? That's what OP claims .. In fact I believe that he's proven to be lying as all the police officers were checked before leaving.
 
kaos said:
Oh K.T. You really should :D There's a markable difference in his clarity and attitude when he's rattling off his own testimony to Roux compared to the memory lapses and argumentative nature he uses towards Nel. I'm going over OP's testimony again now and have lost count of the amount of times he's tried to slip in 'tampering' into his CE and it's not just the word 'tampering' that he uses. Every single time he mentions it, it's "tampered, disturbed and contaminated".

A bit I noticed yesterday was OP saying to Nel there would be people coming to testify how well him and Reeva got along yet the only defence witnesses that alluded to that were his coach and Prof Derman yet neither of those even met Reeva from my recollection?

I hope Nel also addresses that during OP's CE, he constantly whinged about his watches going missing, the police traipsing through his house touching things, them not wearing protective clothing etc as if they had no right to be interfering in his life. Never mentioning at any point that Reeva and her family were entitled to justice, that Reeva and her family were entitled to a better police investigation. As per usual, it was all about Oscar.
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BIB - He also told Nel during cross that there would be experts who will testify about the scene being "tampered with, disturbed, and contaminated," yet the DT never produced said experts. In fact, two of his own expert witnesses (Dixon and Wolmarans) actually contradicted OP's testimony of how Reeva was positioned with her butt on the floor when he found her and his claim that police had moved the magazine rack. Both DT experts corroborated the PT expert's evidence that his claim is impossible based on the forensic evidence of the blood pool that had formed around one of the rack's legs. Oops!

Nel pinned OP against a wall because in his plea explanation, he specifically stated that these allegations of tampering, disturbance, and contamination will be proven. OP's wishy-washy recollection of where things were before they were allegedly moved didn't do him any favors. Every time Nel pressed harder, OP would try to get himself out of it by insisting that his plea explanation said it will be "demonstrated during the course of the trial," not necessarily by his own testimony evidence. :rolleyes:

The best part of all this is that Nel showed him the photo of his bedroom that was taken when police began collecting evidence and said, "If that photograph that we see there, photograph 55, if that is the way it was that morning, your version cannot be true." OP confirmed, "That is correct, milady."

But then then the DT rested their case without proving otherwise. ;)

1:22:40 http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBvvA4cL5Zc
 
eimajjjj said:
Here's an interesting read about the witness timelines and prosecution case. Not much new stuff other than the last paragraph that suggests the first set of sounds was OP firing out of the window and that the bat was just never heard:

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/pistorius-trial-witness-timelines.html

"The prosecution could also assert that the sounds at 3am were unidentified bangs. Is it possible that Pistorius fired his gun out of the open window to the balcony, and then reloaded it? This may have been during a quarrel (viz. sounds heard by van der Merwe). Reeva began screaming; Pistorius shouted back at her and they quarrelled for several minutes; she ran into the toilet and locked the door for self-protection, and at 3:17 he shot four times through the door and killed her. He then shouted for help out the window and telephoned; he banged down the door (sounds unheard by neighbors) while waiting for help to arrive, then put on his prosthetic legs and carried Reeva downstairs.

This would contradict less testiomony: it would agree with the testimony that the screams were loud and unmuffled, that some dimmer light could be seen through the toilet window through the screaming (i.e. light from the bathroom, if the toilet door was open; the light in the toilet was apparently not working), and the testimony from the forensic pathologist that she was standing in front of the door facing it at the first shot, if she were actually locking it. "
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BBM: If that is true, wouldn't we have heard about more empty shells laying around?
 
Val1 said:
foxbluff said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-previous-abusive-relationship-shooting.html


bbm - I'm betting they argued about that.... if nothing else. RS was obviously hurt by it, enough to mention it in a public forum no less!
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Ty, Val, for posting the notes for RS's proposed speech (with breaks for paragraphs) so that WSers can easily read them!! [O/T - @Val - Would you believe that before I posted same, I actually considered PMing you w/the list and link and asking you to post on my behalf!?!
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K.T said:
Going back to Firzt Realty party and the February 13th movements of Pistorius.
Yes, something definitey does not add up form his testimony, the other's affidavits or his messages to Steenkamp...

(Thank AJ, jay jay and everyone for previous posts about the Feb 13…Fritz confusion was funny ;))

Steenkamp spends the 12 Feb night at his house. They wake up together in his house in Pretoria.

Feb 13
  • Drives car to J’burg for financial meeting, leaves very early to miss traffic.
  • Morning coffee with mysterious, unspecified person from arriving early in J’Burg.
  • Morning meeting with a financial advisor – Hears bad news and Steenkamp later commiserates with him in messages.
  • Late lunch with Justin Divarus (Divarus affidavit “Oscar and I had a late lunch in Johannesburg” – Samantha Greyvenstien was there at some point and said in her affidavit she tried to convince Steenkamp for a girls movie night in but Steenkamp wanted Pistorius to (not go on a boys night with Divarus) come back Pretoria home for her. Sequence of events NOT what Steenkamp’s texts to OP suggest.)
  • Meets with Ryan, estate agent. 15:21:52 OP message to RS “I’m just finishing of with Ryan”.
  • Attends party of Firzt Realty Estate – 10th Anniverary of company
  • 5pmish drives back to arrive at Pretoria home to meet Steenkamp
Ryan must be Ryan Chaitowitz (Chaitowitz worked at Firzt Realty til Dec 2013, won an award for Sandton real estate).

Colleague at Firzt Realty, estate agent Valerie Berkow-Kaye, told press (days after the shooting on Feb 17th) that Pistorius attended the afternoon party of Firzt Realty Estate 10th Birthday event:




The facebook of Firzt Realty company has posted on July 9th pictures of a ‘10th Frizt Realty Estate party’, held in a house courtyard in a pool, garden property. It’s hard to know if this is the same party that Pistorius attended or a second event but from the pictures it these events look upmarket, well-attended, family and associates invited, alcohol served. https://www.facebook.com/firztrealt...1406093684./10151540388117877/?type=3&theater


Here’s a twitter account to a @ValerieBerkow-Kaye.
From when I saw it last week she appears to have deleted some information too…? https://twitter.com/ValerieBerkowKa
http://www.firztonline.co.za/Firzt-Realtors/Valerie-Berkow-Kaye/34.agent​

Pistorius was very, very busy on the Feb 13th.
He had bad financial news.
He had been also worrying over the last weeks about the financing of an expensive house he was buying/had bought in J’Burg and was at a meeting with the agent.
He is said to have gone to the agent’s real estate party that would have been up-market and alcohol-served.

Who did he meet in the early morning? Why does Greyvenstein and Divarus appear to lie about Steenkamps intentions? Why does Pistorius omit in testimony that he went to real estate party in Johannesburg…is it because he does want it to be seen he was drinking/partying before he killed Steenkamp? Or, why does Valerie Berkow-Kaye exaggerate about his 'non-intentional' demeanour and presence at her company event?

I think all these activities and prevarications relate to the Pistorius' mindset on Feb 13th - his bad mood, his change of plans to come back to Pretoria while controlling Steenkamp to stay at his home, and then getting others to back up his story however illogical they may sound in retrospect.
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BBM1: I wondered about that too, its very possible IMO that he didn't want it known that he was at a party.

I don't understand though...did his lunch with Ryan morph into the attendance at the party? Were they in two different places? Or was lunch with Ryan AT the party? Perhaps he didn't want Reeva to know he was attending a party?

BBM2: Valerie Berkow-Kaye would not want to jeopardize a possible real estate deal with her company, so had to say something good. Plus, early on, everyone gave OP a huge benefit of the doubt about the "accident."
 
Reeva no doubt stayed overnight at OP’s house many times.

She stayed the night of Feb. 12.

He did not shoot her any prior night - nor on the 12th.

Obviously, she must have used the toilet many times during her stays (including during the night) as well as opening the bathroom window upon occasion?

WHY was this ONE night so very extraordinarily different?!!

WHY was OP “terrified” of a “noise” this ONE night only?!!

Oscar’s fairytale is simply horrid, grade B film noir.
 
Lux et Veritas said:
Reeva no doubt stayed overnight at OP’s house many times.

She stayed the night of Feb. 12.

He did not shoot her any prior night - nor on the 12th.

Obviously, she must have used the toilet many times during her stays (including during the night) as well as opening the bathroom window upon occasion?

WHY was this ONE night so very extraordinarily different?!!

WHY was OP “terrified” of a “noise” this ONE night only?!!

Oscar’s fairytale is simply horrid, grade B film noir.
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Yes, and amongst all this sleuthing and debate, it's easy to forget the horrific ordeal that woman went through that night. It was an absolute brutal way to die and I genuinely believe that Masipa will have this in her mind throughout and this disgusting man receives the justice he deserves.
 
I've copied/pasted below what my original response to Val was supposed to be in my Post#413:##################
Ty, Val, for posting the notes for RS's proposed speech (with breaks for paragraphs) so that WSers can easily read them!! [O/T - @Val - Would you believe that before I posted same, I actually considered PMing you w/the list and link and asking you to post on my behalf!?!############I agree that the lack of V.Day gift most likely entered the argument, but don't believe it's what set RS off to begin with.##########Btw, during the argument, I've always suspected that RS unintentionally knocked OP off his "feet." I'm picturing them standing face-to-face in the heat of the argument and her whirling around to walk away from him... him grabbing her by the arm or shirt to stop her, but instead of stopping she continues pulling away from him, causing him to fall flat-on-his-face increasing his rage. moo
 
Oscar Pistorius case highlights plight of South Africa's disabled prisoners
Detainees on remand in South Africa often endure worse conditions than convicts. This is one paraplegic man's story
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/22/paraplegic-remand-south-africa

Would OP ever endure such brutal conditions in prison?
[insert cynical laughter here]

His family would probably build him his own private, detached cell block (ie condo) - with 24/7 staff, track, etc. and “gift” it to the State.

The big question: Where will he be incarcerated? (House arrest with stylish ankle monitor at Uncle Arnold’s house?)
 
Cherwell said:
I wish I shared your confidence.

I have trust and confidence in Judge Masipa, and I don't see any chance of an acquittal. I think he will be found guilty of all charges and given a heavy jail sentence.

It's what comes afterwards that gives cause for concern. Because once the trial is over, and verdict and sentence delivered, public interest will drop. The world won't be watching any more.

Pistorius will be granted leave to appeal, he will be allowed bail and will continue his life of luxury, holidaying where he pleases etc etc. This may go on for a long time pending delay after delay, and eventually money and influence will swing things so that he escapes jail altogether. But most people will be unaware of this.
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I admit that I may be very naive about the equality (or lack thereof) within SA's justice system. I live in the US where we have jury trials for serious criminal cases. Private citizens serving as jurors are more likely to be influenced by their own personal bias/prejudices and emotions, and although some juries have IMO disappointingly reached the wrong verdict (OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, George Zimmerman), I accept and respect those verdicts and I still believe it is the best and fairest system to ensure equal justice. I am digressing, but my point is that I realize that I may be underestimating the influence money and power can have on a court system that does not have trial by jury.

That said, and again, perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I truly feel that the vast media attention surrounding OP's case helps to put the pressure on Masipa/her assessors and the appeals court to genuinely seek the truth for Reeva and due process for OP by fairly and accurately applying the law to the facts and circumstances of this case. I hear what you're saying regarding your concern of diminishing public interest after the verdict and sentencing are handed down. I do share your concern, because if for no other reason, the length of time the appeals process is likely to take distances the public and mass-media from the case. But I'm going to remain hopeful that even though the world will no longer be watching on a daily basis, that the appeals court will be acutely aware that whatever their ruling is, it will elicit massive attention again and make headlines world-wide.

What I hope Judge Masipa does is find him guilty on all the firearms charges, sentence him to the maximum jail term, and refuse him leave to appeal THOSE charges. Then at least he will spend some time where he deserves to be.
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Absolutely agree.
 
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