Trial Discussion Thread #48

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liesbeth said:
Yes. Also...if Oscar broke the upper part of the door with the bat (but not the lower panels) at about 03:00 am it would explain a lot of things:

a) The muted light that Mrs Stipp saw through the toilet cubicle's window,
b) the fact that the screams from the cubicle was heard by the Stipps and Burger and Johnson,
c) the escalating intensity of the screams before the shots means Reeva saw him with the gun and
d) this also explains her defensive position (why would she try to defend herself with her arms lifted to her head if she couldn't see Oscar with the gun?)
e) and the fact that she was standing upright (with arms lifted?) in front of the door when the first bullet hit her in the hip. Lastly it makes sense that
e) the crack that runs through the bullet hole on the lower panel was made when he used his hands (as he testified) to tear open the panels.

The most horrifying thing of all is that Reeva must have seen OP with the gun. It's the only thing that explains the light, the audible screams escalating in intensity, her upright position with hands lifted to protect her face.
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Yes, this scenario makes sense of a lot of things. It does look as if the shots go through the upper panels though. What am I missing here?
 
Giles said:
Yes, this scenario makes sense of a lot of things. It does look as if the shots go through the upper panels though. What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26417240

1z0VUsq.jpg
xca7iib.jpg


Apologies. I should have said the upper part of the panel and the bottom part of the panel, not the top- and bottom panels.

The bat broke a hole in the door above the handle. Vermeulen testified that Oscar was probably on his stumps when these marks were made.

The shots are all below the handle on the lower part of the panel. There's a crack running through D that you can see in a close up of the door. The crack is partly obscured by the piece of paper with the D, but you can see it change direction in the bullet hole - enters top right of the hole and exits bottom left.

Roux asked Vermeulen to confirm that the shots came before the bat strikes. Vermeulen said that the shots came first and then he added that he meant that as far as the crack (through D) was concerned, the shot came first. Nel later asked him if he could tell if the marks above the handle (that broke the door) was before, or after, the shots. Vermeulen said he could not.

I think that OP used the bat to damage the door and make a hole big enough to see. Then he shot. And then he used the bat as a lever and/or his hands and/or a few kicks to break the panel, causing the crack through D.
 
Lux et Veritas said:
Outstanding observations, Liesbeth!

The reverse order of the two sets of sounds (bat>gun) - contrary to what defense claims (gun>bat) - really does explain so many things. It’s like a Rubik’s Cube swiftly falling into place.

The more we discuss the second-by-second nitty gritty of events, the more horrific the visual becomes.

Rearranging the time line into a more logical order to align with witness testimonies certainly puts a whole new perspective on that night. It’s even worse than I first thought.

Can you imagine a raging man, literally tearing open a locked door to get to you?!!

(I'm really starting to wonder about the good docs at Westkoppies and their "report".)

OP didn’t just shoot her - he committed unspeakably cruel terrorism.
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bbm

Somewhere I have read, that the whole murderous expiry of doing is such an appalling thing, the general public/the world? should never know.
I think, that's certainly what it is! :tears: Poor, poor Reeva (and parents). :tears: - And now with :copcar: to :jail:, I hope! OP deserves only this and for long enough.
 
jay-jay said:
It was bad enough when my abusive ex partner, in a drunken rage, grabbed hold of me by the arms and slammed me up against the kitchen cabinets .. I suddenly realised at that point that he could kill me (he had told me that he had held a knife to a man's throat previously, and that it was only something he would ever do to someone who had annoyed him .. just like I had 'annoyed him' right then), and I screamed like I had never screamed in my life, but even that would've been nothing like actually seeing a gun being pointed at you, so you can see just how loud Reeva would've screamed when she saw that .. hence the neighbours describing it as a 'bloodcurdling' scream. (Fortunately for me, ex abuser was so drunk, and I was reasonably physically fit at the time, I was able to wrestle him to the floor .. but in that split second I really did fear for my life and it's amazing how much scream you can summon up in such circumstances).
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It must have been awful. I'm sorry that this happened to you, jay-jay.
 
I'm sure, investigating officer Hilton Botha (suddenly resigned for long), would know the complete story, what happened in OP's home inclusive violence before the murder. Wished, he could tell now. Logically we have to wait til after verdict.
 
Cherwell said:
Never heard a mention of the people who live directly opposite. Perhaps they weren't there that night.

Does anybody else find OP's house incredibly ugly? I find it hard to imagine somebody deliberately designing such a heap. If these houses were toys or models, OP's looks like somebody accidentally stepped on it.
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bbm :floorlaugh:
Don't criticize! OP had designed the "trampled" house; his career will be architect after prison, I suppose (start maybe between 2029 and 2039, hopefully not earlier than that).
 
Greater Than said:
I think after he broke the door down he dragged her out into the bathroom and checked her phone to see of she had called/texted anyone. Her phone requires a passcode to unlock it which he didn't know, so I think he threw it down in anger which is what cause the cover to pop off. Then he left her laying there and went to get his phone(s?). I think when he got the phone(s) from the nightstand, that's when blood was sprayed from his hands onto the wall over the headboard. Then he made his phone calls and went back to pick her up to get her the hell out of there.

MOO
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BBM: Which is why, IMO, he added the "I told Reeva to get down and phone the police" to his story because he thought she may have threatened to call police and he was unsure if she got a chance to. He knew it could show up on her cell phone, so he was covering for that possibility in his story.
 
Cherwell said:
Never heard a mention of the people who live directly opposite. Perhaps they weren't there that night.

Does anybody else find OP's house incredibly ugly? I find it hard to imagine somebody deliberately designing such a heap. If these houses were toys or models, OP's looks like somebody accidentally stepped on it.
Click to expand...

There are elements that appeal to me because I like contemporary architecture, but to me that house looks extremely austere and institutional, both in design and interior furnishings.
 
kittychi said:
BBM: Which is why, IMO, he added the "I told Reeva to get down and phone the police" to his story because he thought she very well may have threatened to call police and he was unsure if she got a chance to. He knew it could show up on her cell phone, so he was covering for that possibility in his story.
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Absolutely! That's why he incessantly asserts he told her to call the police: just in case Nel had some evidence of the call.

By the way, regarding bat first, gun second. That's 100% correct IMO but I think she came out after the bat strikes, attempted to put her jeans on (final piece of clothing not packed), then quickly took them off and ran back once OP produced the gun. I think she was literally a few seconds in the toilet the second time when he shot. Explains the jeans and why she was standing at door.
 
kittychi said:
BBM: Which is why, IMO, he added the "I told Reeva to get down and phone the police" to his story because he thought she very well may have threatened to call police and he was unsure if she got a chance to. He knew it could show up on her cell phone, so he was covering for that possibility in his story.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I always found the 'Call the police' very strange…

Calling the Police would certainly take time : time to explain the situation, your address and then wait for who knows how long for them to show up...

Calling estate security would result in an almost instantaneous response and assistance… call the security gate which is 60 seconds away from OP's house, the security staff knows the layout and the client's home, the gate dispatches security guards which are already on patrol in the small estate (in a buggy, on bicycle and on foot), and the gate can also call Police anyways if necessary.

If OP was really scared and wanted assistance, he would have pointed the gun at the passageway whilst calling estate security and/or triggering the alarm panic button.

Instead, his story is that he decided to confront the danger on his own, relying on a panicked Reeva to call the Police which would only arrive some 10-15 minutes after the call.

… what's the point of having armed security guards patrolling the premises if you call the Police ??

Ridiculous !
 
liesbeth said:
It must have been awful. I'm sorry that this happened to you, jay-jay.
Click to expand...

S'ok .. it all feels like a lifetime away now (although it was only about 6 years). I must've needed my head seeing to because .. after all that, I went back with him again :scared: .. and then the abuse (mostly psychological) and violence (mostly against objects in my house, which got totally trashed) happened all over again, several times .. but that is how domestic abuse works. It was like I couldn't believe that bit had actually happened, not when it came out of the blue from an otherwise quiet, intelligent and seemingly sweet person .. you convince yourself that you must've got it all wrong. Jeckyll and Hyde characters is what they are .. that is what OP is .. and that is why Reeva was so confused about him, but eventually taken in by him.
 
liesbeth said:
If you are right handed and you fire a pistol, the recoil pushes against your palm and fingers and forces your hand up and to the right.

So four quick, un-aimed, uncontrolled shots (by a right handed person) would make four holes in the door like this...

aWfKtl0.jpg


...and the fact that the third and fourth shots are lower and grouped together shows the pistol was brought under control and that there was a line of sight between the target, the pistol and the eye of the shooter, i.e. deliberate aiming.


Link for original image of the door:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...rius-i-blame-myself-taking-reevas-life-n79746
More info on shooting a pistol:
http://canadianshooter.wordpress.com/holding-the-pistol/
Click to expand...

I read an interesting perspective from a firearm instructor who said OP's story of firing one-handed in the dark doesn't match the shot pattern on the door. The first problem he said is being able to control muzzle flip when firing accurate shots in rapid succession. He said it takes a lot of practice and once the skill is acquired, you can shoot rapid accurate shots with about one second between them.

Now, with the type of ammo OP used, he said there is more charge behind the bullet so it requires more firing pressure, which results in more recoil and muzzle flip. With the shots all being relatively the same height, he said this means the shots were controlled and deliberate, and suggests the shots were no less than one second apart from each other. On top of that, he said firing with one hand requires even more time between the shots to control recoil and muzzle flip in order to accurately shoot the target in the same area.

He went on to explain the problem with OP's claim of the bathroom being dark. He said that he himself has participated in night shoot competitions and the muzzle flash of first shot unequivocally destroys your night vision. He said to be able to accurately fire the subsequent shots in the same area takes an inordinate amount of practice.

As an experienced instructor, he said the shot pattern on the door just doesn't match up to an unbalanced, one-handed shooter, who is firing in rapid succession, the dark, with powerful ammo.
 
kaos said:
If OP never provided the experts that he claimed would show how the scene was "tampered, disturbed and contaminated" does that mean the court must accept that it wasn't? In the same token, if they didn't prove that OP screamed like a woman, does the court then discard those claims and accept that it was Reeva screaming?
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I think the accusation that the scene was tampered with, disturbed, and contaminated is a big problem for him. He specifically stated in his plea explanation that all of the above will be proven, but it wasn't.

I think the DT was trying to confuse the court by showing the initial photos of the crime scene and then the later ones after the investigation began to show things had moved. And that may have worked if this was a jury trial, but I have no doubt it didn't work with Masipa.
 
Greater Than said:
I think the accusation that the scene was tampered with, disturbed, and contaminated is a big problem for him. He specifically stated in his plea explanation that all of the above will be proven, but it wasn't.

I think the DT was trying to confuse the court by showing the initial photos of the crime scene and then the later ones after the investigation began to show things had moved. And that may have worked if this was a jury trial, but I have no doubt it didn't work with Masipa.
Click to expand...

Yes, it was such a cheap trick that was constantly pulled by OP and Roux when it seems given that the only changes in photos was between pre and post-investigation which is standard in investigations I would have thought.

However, Nel didn't seem to mention this to OP directly during examination I.e. "Yes, they're moved Mr.Pistorius in [insert photo number here] but as you can see from the timestamps, this is before and after investigation." Nor did he mention it when Roux brings up the ridiculous 'refuting' photo at the end of Nel's cross examination with the duvet spread out and jeans the right way turned in. This photo was obviously for investigation purposes. I guess with the latter example Nel wasn't allowed to 'go again'.

In fact, there isn't one photo with the fans where OP says they are and duvet on the bed I don't think? Not with an early timestamp at least.

I can only think that Nel wasn't so direct about all this because he trusts that Masipa will see through the cheap attempts to imply there was tampering. Would have been nice to see OP squirm a bit more though!
 
kittychi said:
BBM: Which is why, IMO, he added the "I told Reeva to get down and phone the police" to his story because he thought she may have threatened to call police and he was unsure if she got a chance to. He knew it could show up on her cell phone, so he was covering for that possibility in his story.
Click to expand...

Yes, very possible.

I think it's also possible that he really did yell, "Call the police" and included it in his version because he wasn't sure if any ear witnesses heard him. According to him, he whispered it to her when he got his gun, but then yelled it again (after he yelled "Get the F out of my house") when he was in the passage. Why would he need to tell her to call the cops twice? The bathroom window was open, so there would be the possibility of neighbors hearing him yell it.

He obviously wasn't truly instructing her to call the cops. I think after she locked herself in the toilet and wouldn't come out it pissed him off, so he beat on the door with the bat. After he yelled, "Get the F out of my house!" I think she threatened to call the police and he responded, "Call the police!" as in 'Call the police. Go ahead. I dare you,' and then proceeded to pump four hollow point bullets through the door.

MOO
 
eimajjjj said:
Yes, it was such a cheap trick that was constantly pulled by OP and Roux when it seems given that the only changes in photos was between pre and post-investigation which is standard in investigations I would have thought.

However, Nel didn't seem to mention this to OP directly during examination I.e. "Yes, they're moved Mr.Pistorius in [insert photo number here] but as you can see from the timestamps, this is before and after investigation." Nor did he mention it when Roux brings up the ridiculous 'refuting' photo at the end of Nel's cross examination with the duvet spread out and jeans the right way turned in. This photo was obviously for investigation purposes. I guess with the latter example Nel wasn't allowed to 'go again'.

In fact, there isn't one photo with the fans where OP says they are and duvet on the bed I don't think? Not with an early timestamp at least.

I can only think that Nel wasn't so direct about all this because he trusts that Masipa will see through the cheap attempts to imply there was tampering. Would have been nice to see OP squirm a bit more though!
Click to expand...

I guess Nel didn't attempt to explain the time difference between the photos because he can't give explanations to a witness, he can only ask the witness questions, although I have noticed how different examinations are in SA. Both Nel and the DT made statements while questioning witnesses, which I have never seen allowed in any other court system. Statements like "Your version cannot be reasonably possibly true" and "You knew she was behind that door" would be sustained objections in the U.S. but I guess are permitted in SA.

Anyway, I fully expect Nel to address the time difference between the photos and how the initial photos are in one album while the later photos are in another album during his closing.
 
Greater Than said:
I read an interesting perspective from a firearm instructor who said OP's story of firing one-handed in the dark doesn't match the shot pattern on the door. The first problem he said is being able to control muzzle flip when firing accurate shots in rapid succession. He said it takes a lot of practice and once the skill is acquired, you can shoot rapid accurate shots with about one second between them.

Now, with the type of ammo OP used, he said there is more charge behind the bullet so it requires more firing pressure, which results in more recoil and muzzle flip. With the shots all being relatively the same height, he said this means the shots were controlled and deliberate, and suggests the shots were no less than one second apart from each other. On top of that, he said firing with one hand requires even more time between the shots to control recoil and muzzle flip in order to accurately shoot the target in the same area.

He went on to explain the problem with OP's claim of the bathroom being dark. He said that he himself has participated in night shoot competitions and the muzzle flash of first shot unequivocally destroys your night vision. He said to be able to accurately fire the subsequent shots in the same area takes an inordinate amount of practice.

As an experienced instructor, he said the shot pattern on the door just doesn't match up to an unbalanced, one-handed shooter, who is firing in rapid succession, the dark, with powerful ammo.
Click to expand...

He would have made a good prosecution witness!
 
A question given OP's habbits and characteristics :

Let's assume that at abt 01:00 ish am OP was sleeping and Reeva was awake and no argument occurred before that at least no witness heard anything. So Reeva went downstairs to eat some snack.(I personally don't see the snack in between a heated argument very probable so my guess furious argument
started after the snack )OP woke up to the noise and of course noticed that Reeva was not in bed. I'm pretty sure that he would put his legs to go downstairs to chech what was goin on. Do you think he would take his handy gun on the bedside table with him in case there could be kind of unknown danger downstairs? I mean maybe he was gunned way before we assume ..

Then an argument could have started upon 01:48 internet activity of Op's phone /a message/snapchat/photo kind of rabbit thing could be male/female OF OP's phone charging in the kitchen ...(it was after 12 pm and already VD ) This could be his 0020 personal phone and maybe he wanted to place it away from Reeva so left it in the kitchen before going to bed..Reeva ran upstairs and locked the bedroom door.. OP sort of broke the bedroom door.. While Reeva was wearing her jeans saying she would leave, he pushed her to the bed, duvet
falling to the floor because of their struggle and OP pulled off her jeans and threw them on the duvet.. Reeva with an effort got up from the bed and took the shorts and ran to the toilet with her phone .. I hope to post details in the theory thread...

No matter Reeva was not in bed OP getting in the middle of the night then taking his gun to go downstairs makes sense to me.. What do you think ? is it possible ?
 
AJ_DS said:
I get what you are saying… but

- Moller received from Hilton Botha the 4 phones on 15 February

- Moller determined the numbers of both iPhones and both Blackberries

- Moller had to leave Pretoria

- Moller asked a colleague to fill out the forms for a section 205

- The forms need to be approved and signed by a Judge before submitting them to Vodacom

- The forms were sent to Vodacom

- Vodacom made the necessary queries and produced the data

- Vodacom sent the data back to Moller

- Moller analyzed the data and realized that a phone was missing : the 0020 phone

- Moller contacted the State to inform them that the 0020 phone was missing

- The State contacted the Defence and asked them to produce and surrender the 0020 phone

… all this takes time… so I don't know how much time elapsed between the asking for the phone and the giving of the phone.

Furthermore, it does NOT take 11 days to erase/tamper with the data on a phone.

The 0020 phone left OP's house on that morning, an expensive watch, Reeva's purse, … and who knows what else… however, none of it was deemed significant enough to make a big deal out of it in OP's Trial.
Click to expand...

I believe "a big deal" was made of it, most likely before trial started or in the judge's chambers. Nel would not be ok with any of this crap.

I also believe it was NOT OK for OP or family/friend to remove the phone from the crime scene. Aimee had to ask permission from the detectives on the scene to remove a spare set of clothes for Oscar. And those items were all logged & approved before leaving house. That phone was deliberately removed by someone for OP and they didn't ask if it was OK to remove it from the crime scene.

With regards to how long it takes to delete/tamper with phone data.. I have no idea. I just know to do it "correctly" with no trace left behind you need to find a knowledgeable individual or company who is willing to "illegally" perform this feat. (I say "illegally" because tampering with evidence from a murder is against the law in most countries.) I would imagine it takes some time to connect with these "knowledgable & talented" folks. That is what would contribute to the lengthy timeframe before being returned, IMO.

I don't agree that just because Moller or whoever didn't discover there was a missing phone until a little later, that it takes OP/family off the hook for hanging onto it & removing it in the first place.

We will have to disagree on this matter. I see no other reason for phone being removed & held onto for 11 days. However, I do appreciate all the detail regarding timelines for Moller/paperwork/Vodacom, etc. Very interesting (were in the world do you locate all these details?).
 
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