Trial Discussion Thread #50 - 14.08.8, Day 40 ~final arguments continue~

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It looks like the Defence has released the Heads but not Annexures A to F, unless anyone has found them?
 
Whoop talking head is also saying Nel has a long used tactic of attempting to rile defense and he has to be ignored because it never does defense attorneys any favours to fall for it. But he says Roux has fallen for it in this case....reacting emotionally.
 
I think Roux has been having lessons from OP on how to throw people under buses :crazy: I do think that Masipa will see through a lot of Roux's "adjusted" argument. After all she did sit through the same hearing! She will have made a judgement on whether or not she believes the Stipps. The timing cannot be as precise as Roux claims other than for time recorded cellphone calls. House clocks, wrist watches are often a few minutes out. In fact I run my watch 5 minutes fast, so that I get back to the car park in time so as not to incur a fine - LOL. Obviously Roux has to try to demolish witness statements or his client is going to spend a lifetime in jail. However I note he is staying very clear of the overall picture of the event.

Nel does get a chance to speak after Roux's performance but can he address what Roux has brought up in his HoA?
 
OP's hug with dad at court, plus some good photos, including Carl P's car after the smash. One photo of OP staring at RS' parents, there goes that confrontational personality again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ne-final-chance-convince-judge-innocence.html

The body language of OP in the hug with his Father is quite telling…… in both pictures you can see his Fathers hands have moved. OP's stay in the same place - that is not a mutual hug IMHO.
 
Re whether or not Nel will rebut and what he can say in his rebuttal: Yesterday Roux said that the State does not have a right to reply to the defense argument on facts, only on points of law.
 
Roux conceded guilt for the restaurant shooting. Said it was a careless accident and that OP is very sorry. He also made it clear that guilt of one charge cannot be used to prove guilt on another charge.
 
For the first time and only today, we finally hear first-hand the defence. The firing of four shots was an involuntary reflex in response to the noise.

Roux said it was a startle/exaggerated startle/exaggerated fight and it was supported by expert evidence of Derman and Scholtz.

This was not the evidence of these witnesses however. Nowhere did they ever claim the firing was involuntary, and they in fact contradicted it (Scholz found OP was able to act in accordance with right or wrong, ie voluntarily, and Derman said you had to ask OP why he fired not him).

There is gross misrepresentation also of what a startle response is. It is a very brief, involuntary, bilateral and symmetrical (both sides of body at same time) reflex. It's components can include a blink, a flinch and stiffening of the neck or shoulder muscles, or a whole-body response of both arms, legs and torso - in humans the latter is a primitive reflex of new borns that disappears. It is observed in rodents, mammals, birds, fish. The studies Derman talked about, electrodes measure the tiny variation in duration and intensity of blinks - this is the measured exaggerated startle in research. A startle response can never, ever comprise the firing of a gun - this is simple fact of the science. Although he did not (deliberately?) make it clear, Derman did in the end define startle response as a blink or contraction of neck/shoulder/back muscles (I can't remember exactly - I hope to find that portion).

A startle response commonly leads to a stress or neuro endocrine/adrenaline response (various names inc fight or flight). The physiological changes of the body are indeed involuntary. But the behavioural positive actions are voluntary (as we know from our own experience). They are not a reflex. Therefore, still - the firing of a gun cannot (and has not) be said to be, scientifically and from an expert viewpoint, an involuntary reflex.

In the UK, if a doctor allowed expert evidence to be used in this way, he would certainly face a hearing with a view to be struck off.

Nel began yesterday with brilliant points. OPs own evidence of thinking what the sound was and meant- after the noise before firing - and that this thought not the noise caused him to fire - makes the defence impossible.

His further point about sitting on 2 chairs at once - wanting the mutually exclusive defence of putative self defence as a backup was also spot on.
 
R: Lets just look at Mrs Johnson.....if you look at their statements, you need a magnifying glass....If you are reading her statement, you're reading his. They're identical.
 
Roux conceded guilt for the restaurant shooting. Said it was a careless accident and that OP is very sorry. He also made it clear that guilt of one charge cannot be used to prove guilt on another charge.


Yah...except he pleaded "not guilty," Roux!
 
R: Mrs Burger used the word 'faded' in her evidence. Mrs Johnson did too.
 
The body language of OP in the hug with his Father is quite telling…… in both pictures you can see his Fathers hands have moved. OP's stay in the same place - that is not a mutual hug IMHO.

OP only allows the hug happen, I see.
 
R: Mr J said 'When my wife testified'. That was the beginning of his testimony.....she mentioned 'half a second'. So did he.....quite clear Mr Johnson adapted his evidence to corroborate hers.
 
R: Mrs S said her husband shouted at her to get away from the window, then there was screaming. It cannot be.
 
R: Sam Taylor was asked if she'd ever heard OP scream when he was anxious, she said no, but I don't want to go into that, just touch on it.
 
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