Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

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The thing I am stuck on is that he did not seemed to have planned ti kill her, for sure, until something went against him, i.e. Hannah fighting him. The way he went about with her so publicly goes against a plan, Imo., and so for me goes against a detailed plan of disposal, other than maybe having an idea in his head that he would make another victim more difficult to find than Morgan. Jmo
 
whiskers said:
I personally feel they need to cast the search net further than the 8 miles. Yet if you do that, then it opens the search to so much countryside, there aren't enough SAR.

When Alexis Murphy disappeared I began wondering if there is more than one person working by himself. Possibly a ring of people or a small group. Simply my opinion and something I've wondered. I'm not sure I'd call it sex trafficking. If something like this exists, I feel it's more local. But usually there are snitches in these sort of rings, but who knows. It's simply another possibility and not saying JM is part of this.

(In the past three weeks I've had two separate incidents in southwest VA. of men following me and parking their vehicles to watch to see what I did next. I'm a person who is very aware of my surroundings and I don't get spooked easily. But it was odd. And these small incidents not related to the search, I realize. But always be aware of who is around you. Who is watching you.)
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Whiskers,

"But always be aware of who is around you. Who is watching you.)" is very good advice.
In fact, I tell people to observe their dog when they let them outside. Most dogs, unless they have to relieve themselves urgently, will take a few steps and stop. Then they will put there nose to the air to monitor the area for any strange scents. They will also look around for anything unusual and or out of place. That's why they sometimes react so wildly, barking, growling, and charging at something as insignificant(to us) as a large branch that is laying in your yard. That branch wasn't there yesterday and as far as they know, it ain't supposed to be there now. A dog is a predator and if they utilize these "anti-ambush rituals" maybe we should learn from that.

Unfortunately, in my experience most people honestly believe that bad things won't happen to them. If you try to give them any kind of safety advice, it's like "la la la...I can't hear you...shut up" they won't even entertain the thought that something bad could happen to them. It honestly scares them to think about it.
 
Bryan9 said:
This was discussed quite a bit way back in this thread... His car was a mark for a police pullover. His inspection was outdated. The car was in terrible condition, and likely had a missing taillight or headlight. Plus, LE was "driving while black," a risk in itself, I'm sorry to say. Unless he was asking for an arrest, he would have left Charlottesville on two-lane, poorly lighted roads in which police presence is minimal.
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Someone said earlier that the night Hannah went missing was also a 3/4 moon. That combined with what you stated above would make this seem likely IF the suspect was behaving rationally and logically.

He may not have been.

I just dont know with this guy. Its often hard to tell what someone who is a little "off" will do in a given situation.....and IMO thats what makes them so dangerous.

I think it would help the search tremendously if LE released a profile but I dont know even if that's legal or considered detrimental to the case at this point.

Id also love to know if they have any further debit card activity after his leaving Tempos.

It seems to me he would have stopped somewhere to get a pack of cigarettes that night (since he was seen bumming them at Tempos) and once you get outside of Charlottesville there arent that many places that are open 24 hours in "the country".
 
A thought:

What if we take an average mileage of the disposal site (perp's residence to site? location of victim last seen to site?) of the most recent victims of all the known serial killers who have been active for around the same amount of time...I mean, if I were to look at average stats and include people like Gabe Gaeta and ARS, I don't think that would be helpful to the stats much due to their potential inexperience, short period of time as an active predator...


JMO eta: my "magic number" is 22 miles (I have some secondary magic numbers which are 2, 6, 7 and 28 miles)--these are numbers/averages I have frequently seen here in other cases, but I'm not so sure they are applicable here with his length of time as a potential predator and level of experience.
 
margarita25 said:
Ok, here's another thought:
(so much for my map tutorial---see how bad my ADD is, lol)

JM seems to me to be an impulsive type of killer, as opposed to one who maybe plans/stalks his particular victims well in advance. (For example, MH seemed to be a "crime of opportunity", as potentially HG was, and maybe his prior sexual assault victims.)

With that being said, would his disposal sites be equally as impulsive (less organized)? (And therefore easier to find?)
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Rapists and murderers like JM are opportunistic but he was on the hunt every September and October of every year, imo. So while he did not stalk his victim in advance he was hunting for one during that time period. Sadly isn't that hard to find an unsuspecting female who is alone. So when he finally sees one he seizes the opportunity to strike. The plan has already been formulated in his mind before finding his next victim. He already knows what he is going to do and how he is going to do it.

As far as his disposal site or sites he would have much more time to devote in finding remote areas to dispose of the bodies. A killer can show organization in some areas of their crimes and disorganizations in other ways.

Murderers like JM usually do have comfort zones and use those areas they feel comfortable that the bodies will not be discovered. With JM growing up in the vast area he can be like other killers and have various disposal sites in which he places them. Some may be together but then only one victim will be placed in an area. He may see a method to his madness.

He certainly learned not to put anymore remains in the same area Morgan was found. He may have gone back to putting remains where he knows other victims of his hasn't been found.

If they do find Hannah I do think it will be a site he has familiarity with.

I also hope in their search for Hannah they may come upon other bodies/clothing or other victim's possessions that are missing just like they happened to come upon the abandoned cab during the search.

IMO
 
As random as people seem to be, is there some kind of subconscious thing the SK do?.

The one rape at Liberty was out in the woods/field.

Fairfax was outside. Who knows if he was going to leave her there once he killed her.

MH seems to be in the field.

My guess is that fields/ outdoors have some psychological thing for him.

I wonder if someone could do an 8 mile circle around where MH was found? I think his focal point is somewhere besides his apt or downtown Charlottesville.

People give clues they are not even aware of.

But, what are those clues or patterns!
 
BBM:

ksj3 said:
Even discounting those, unfortunately given his job and where he grew up and his ties to MD/PA/DC, his awareness space is pretty big. :( The time gap is crucial. But, I agree with a poster above, that he was likely too anxious for many reasons to drive very far.

ETA: I wish we know if the Craigsville IGA sighting was real. That might take this search in a totally different direction, more W of town.
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In addition to anxiety, his impulsive nature might indicate this, but then again, his experience as a cab driver means he is comfortable with driving long distances...and with the sketch, dna...
 
Foxfire said:
If my memory is correct, there was a full moon when HG was abducted. JM's safe haven seemed to be the outdoors/forest. Just a guess, but to prevent additional exposure and chance of being witnessed. Imo, the assault location and body disposal location was one and the same or in an adjacent area..
Wish we knew more about JM's outdoor activities/hobbies. We know that he was a fisherman. Was he a hunter?
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3/4 moon
http://lunaf.com/english/moon-phases/lunar-calendar-2014/09/13/
 
I was just thinking last night - I drove on the Interstate about 20 minutes to a mall and noticed that at the sides there was a slope which led down to woods, and swampy ground, mile after mile and to me that would be the easiest and simplest place to dump a body.
It continues on like that for many miles.... he needn't have gone far with her.
Apart from workers mowing grass along that slope, it could be forever before anyone would go down there.
 
(I'd like to just beat it out him personally)

And on that note, that's my sign I need to take a break bc I'm getting really ticked off.

Ya'll are awesome. Keep up the great work. It's really great to be able to converse with you guys here (like minds)--Thank you WS and mods for this platform!!

(I'm going to have a big breakfast, then go back to sleep for a couple hours before the Broncos game. :eek:fftobed: During this time I will be thinking extensively about all of this! When I say "I'm going to sleep on it", I mean that literally and wholeheartedly!)
 
cluciano63 said:
The thing I am stuck on is that he did not seemed to have planned ti kill her, for sure, until something went against him, i.e. Hannah fighting him. The way he went about with her so publicly goes against a plan, Imo., and so for me goes against a detailed plan of disposal, other than maybe having an idea in his head that he would make another victim more difficult to find than Morgan. Jmo
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I used to think that. But after reading on here, I have changed my mind. He is a serial killer.

He is so cool. So nonchalant. So concerned about clothes, mattresses, showers. Ho hum. Just another day after killing.
 
ZsaZsa said:
I was just thinking last night - I drove on the Interstate about 20 minutes to a mall and noticed that at the sides there was a slope which led down to woods, and swampy ground, mile after mile and to me that would be the easiest and simplest place to dump a body.
It continues on like that for many miles.... he needn't have gone far with her.
Apart from workers mowing grass along that slope, it could be forever before anyone would go down there.
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Soooo true!!!

There's a stat I remember reading, about proximity to the road...anyone remember?
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Rapists and murderers like JM are opportunistic but he was on the hunt every September and October of every year, imo. So while he did not stalk his victim in advance he was hunting for one during that time period. Sadly isn't that hard to find an unsuspecting female who is alone. So when he finally sees one he seizes the opportunity to strike. The plan has already been formulated in his mind before finding his next victim. He already knows what he is going to do and how he is going to do it.

IMO
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Respectfully snipped for relevance to my post.

I agree and I think when JLM picked those two girls up over his shoulders, the ones he was harassing and followed to Tempo, I think he was gauging them, to see how heavy they would be to carry somewhere.

He might have even been reliving past abductions and getting himself worked up for "the kill" in the anticipation of leaving with one of them. Then when they rejected him he started looking elsewhere.

Same thing with the odd behavior of demanding to see both of their feet....maybe this was something he did to other girls?

MH's body was found in a field along a fence line so Im assuming it was within walking distance of a road?
 
That has come up, before, about the speeding...I think he was fined in common speed traps in the area, iirc.
 
jbowman55 said:
Howardsville Turnpike, which turns into Howardsville Rd.

I've mentioned Howardsville several times, probably the most remote-seeming place I've ever been in my life. It's where my friend and I stayed in a cottage a couple of times, and is about halfway between Hwy 29/Lovingston to the west and Hwy 60 and 15/Sprouse's Corner to the east. It could very well be that you could drive the entire length of that road at 3 am and never pass another car.

I keep coming back to think about this area, because it keeps coming up in the conversation of others here on WS, because it's fairly close to where JM grew up, and most likely because it's the only part of that area that I've really spent any time in.

But it is so remote. So remote and quiet, and there would be SO much privacy.
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Please send or phone this in: EMAIL - CPDtips@charlottesville.org - DEDICATED TIP LINE - 434-295-3851

Howardsville being near Lynchburg/Liberty U makes it a possibility - that it is land JLM knows, has fished, hunted, hiked.
 
I just read.up on the SK who used Galveston Beach as a mass grave, wondering if this was some kind of hero to JM since he went to that beach when he fled.
The Galveston killer would abduct, rape, and murder his victims. He would then bury them. He also had a torture room he would bring them to, first. I don't know if JM would have a place set up like that guy did?
That SK also had a couple of guys working for him, to help lure victims in and to assist in the torture...
 
distracted said:
I think it's possible his disposal sites might be equally unorganized, although I think she's close and the site was preplanned even though his victims seem to be a crime of opportunity. If this is a once a year occurrence for him, generally in the fall, he has the rest of the year to plan.

Caylee Anthony was found so close to her home and she was missed during the searches. I don't think Hannah is inside the city limits but I don't think she's that far outside them either. If we knew when he was first sighted on Saturday, we would have a better idea about how far he could go. He didn't show up for his football practice but I don't think we know much more than that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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During the Anthony case I researched the profile between female and male murderers and how they react differently in choosing the disposal site.

Women more often will discard the victim close to where they live and they usually will leave them above ground. If it is their child they have killed they usually will swaddle them in blankets and place them inside of bags.

However, male murderers tend to take the body a much further distance away from the original abduction site.

IMO
 
Foxfire said:
There is not a more private setting for a serial killer to dispose of a body at night than a rural church cemetery, imo. ...
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Thanks so much for this counter-intuitive, amazing observation. I'd just like to add that there are numerous rural churches south and west of Charlottesville, and they are totally deserted at night... which unfortunately makes AA churches prime targets for arson that may be racially motivated. Years ago, when I needed to do some quiet thinking, I'd drive south of town and park in a rural church's parking lot, out of view of the road, turn off the engine and lights, and ponder stuff. I was *never* disturbed and no one ever came around asking what I was doing there.
 
Besides JBowman (#877) suggesting Howardville Turnpike/Road, Sleuths have suggested two other possibilities on the Search thread (that I recall):

1. Jesse Matthew was at a football game at Massanutten Military Academy near the unfinished new Seven Bends State Park on the day Hannah Graham disappeared.
To cross the Shenandoah river, he would have had to use the Hwy 609 bridge and then 609 S. Hollingsworth to the park site.
Map - https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA (#668)

2. Another park site that Jesse Matthew had shown an interest – Spotsylviania Greenways - http://spotsylvaniagreenways.org/ has several trails: http://spotsylvaniagreenways.org/?page_id=11 (#657)

Have any of the dog search teams investigated these areas?

Are there any other specific sites you would like to have a search made?
 
Foxfire said:
There is not a more private setting for a serial killer to dispose of a body at night than a rural church cemetery, imo. Good Jesse was very religious, imo. There is likely a religious connection to the aftermath of his kills as indicated by the large cedar tree<not a coincidence, imo> where MH's remains were located. Religious rituals after death are common among some experienced, escalated sexual predators/serial killers, imo..

FBI-Photo Gallery
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pho...gan-harrington-killer%2Fphoto-gallery;645;429
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I don't know about how religious Jesse was. But a rural cemetary would be a great place to dump a body. The cadaver dogs certainly are not going to be able to track it there.
 
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