AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

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I'm not seeing your point. Mr. Stanley is a Southern Baptist minister. He has said he does not drink. The Southern Baptist Conference does not accept the use of alcohol.

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-14, 2006, express our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic beverages; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we urge that no one be elected to serve as a trustee or member of any entity or committee of the Southern Baptist Convention that is a user of alcoholic beverages.


http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1156/on-alcohol-use-in-america

Hal added, "There's never been any beer, liquor."

http://www.arkansasmatters.com/stor...ng-search-for-mi/18793/P9S1iYaoUEuIXypDAa_3kQ

Gosh, I never meant to imply that any of the Stanley family were drinkers. I'm sorry you misunderstood me.

But there are certainly Southern Baptists who drink, and I know for a fact that at least one fully ordained Southern Baptist minister drinks. Pastor Stanley is far too healthy and smooth-looking (for a man of his age) to be a drinker.
 
I was never a Baptist, but I attended a Southern Baptist prep school, and I am very familiar with that denomination, and I know many of its members.
 
I hope you're right. If they stay in the system a while, do you think it's likely the parents will still have visitation? Or only if no charges are brought?

Yes. They will have visitation either way, IMO.

Great, for every 2 or 3 fantastic foster families, there are 5 crazy people wanting to make money off the kids. I am sure that will be much better for them, than their usual family routine. Do you really believe he is beating these kids into submission every day or every week?

You're totally right. It's a massively big problem. Kids yanked out of their homes and into foster care where they are quite often neglected or abused. Scary.

As to whether I believe this man was beating his kids into submission every day or week? I don't know but I get the sense that he was trying with his older kids. As children age, they get harder to control. They have stronger personalities. My sense (without proof) is that the father may have been subjecting the older kids to extreme corporal punishment, trying to force them to repent and submit, and other "discipline" such as forced marches in the yard in the snow without shoes, slapping them in their faces, etc. And that neighbors or others felt it was going too far and reported what they saw.

Colton Turner's physical abuse was reported at least three times and Texas CPS did nuthin'.

Sadly not rare. So sad, MyBelle. Just outrageous.

But they haven't been YET - so without charges, you can't take away a parent's legal authority in their own home.

Well, that's simply not true. The juvenile dependency court can take away a parent's legal authority. So can probate court via guardianships an family law courts.

In my cases, the family court regularly dictates what parents may and may not do with their kids - no corporal punishment, only certain extra curriculars, what schools they can go to, what religion they can participate in, what language they can speak.

Yes, CPS does need a search warrant to search and seize children. That argument has already been made to the courts.

Indeed they do not but they also do need to adhere to the principals of the constitution.

I have yet to see any proof the parents were abusive.

These posts are contradictory. CPS does not need a search warrant to seize children. They need an allegation and then if they find evidence that tends to substantiate the allegations, they can yank them. Then they have to file a petition. Later, they must show probable cause.

No warrant is needed to take kids into custody.

When there is proof, please post it. Thanks.

It is unlikely we will see any proof as juvenile dependency cases are confidential. And it is unnecessary that the public be provided such proof in order to keep those kids in custody. These cases march on regardless of demands from various people in the public to be privvy to what is going on.

BTW, I can't say I think that's great. I think CPS hides behind the confidentiality all too often.


That's pretty much what KZ said.
 
I am aware there was a search warrant. CPS in my state does need a warrant to enter a home, search it and seize children. I thought the Constitution applied to all states but perhaps not.

JMO

It does apply in every state and there has been a ton of law stating it is not unconstitutional for social workers to enter a home and seize a child without a warrant.

Your state seems very unique. I'd love to know more about the legal system there. The one state I know that veers from the rest of the country in terms of its laws is Louisiana. It has more of a French/Spanish root to its system.

If you are willing to divulge your state, it may be interesting to learn about its laws. They seem very different from any I have become aware of, regarding juvenile dependency. Fascinating stuff.
 
Lord have mercy. I am absolutely appalled by some of the comments on this thread. Kudos to those of you keeping your cool (s/o to Gitana and KZ).
 
Yes. They will have visitation either way, IMO.








These posts are contradictory. CPS does not need a search warrant to seize children. They need an allegation and then if they find evidence that tends to substantiate the allegations, they can yank them. Then they have to file a petition. Later, they must show probable cause.

No warrant is needed to take kids into custody.



~snipped for length~~

In my state and many others, CPS does not seize kids, police do. The policy is dictated in part by a 6th Circuit Court decision.


My state isn't Arkansas and our CPS policies are dictated in part by a decision about the removal of children without a warrant or exigent circumstances. The Court decided there were no exigent circumstances in the case below.

We now turn to whether the law was clearly established on March 26, 2002, that a social worker could not seize children from their home without a warrant, exigent circumstances, or another recognized exception.

No. 11-4002
Kovacic et al. v. Cuyahoga Cnty. et al.
The social workers argue that the district court erred in denying their motion for summary judgment based on qualified immunity,
contending that exigent circumstances existed and that the relevant Fourth and
Fourteenth Amendment rights were not clearly established as of March 26, 2002.

A. Violation of a Constitutional Right
“[A] social worker, like other state officers, is governed by the Fourth
Amendment’s warrant requirement.”
Andrews v. Hickman Cnty.
, 700 F.3d 845, 859
(6th Cir. 2012). “This would simply mean that social workers would have to obtain consent, have sufficient grounds to believe that exigent circumstances exist, or qualify
under another recognized exception to the warrant requirement before engaging in
warrantless entries and searches of homes.”
Id.
at 859–60. Here, the social workers did not have a warrant to remove the children from their home. They argue that they complied with the Fourth Amendment nonetheless due to exigent circumstances.

When taken in the light most favorable to the children, as we must on the social
workers’ summary-judgment motion, these circumstances cited by the social
workers—reliance on weeks-old incidents and Nancy having missed the March 26
meeting—simply do not constitute exigent circumstances as a matter of law.


http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0201p-06.pdf
 
There is a message/ update on the facebook page supporting the Stanley parents, reportedly from Michelle Stanley. She states they began their "social services" yesterday, and that the kids are doing fine, and she can't talk about other details.

I'm guessing the courts have mandated a number of social services requirements for HS and MS, as a step toward eventual reunification, and that presumably MS (and presumably HS) are cooperating with the court's requirements.

I'm not sure if that would also indicate that criminal charges are more unlikely-- perhaps gitana1 can comment on this. I'm sure the prosecutor could still file charges if indicated, but wonder if the "social services" requirements they are engaging in make that more remote?

A related question for gitana1, if willing to answer.

Would a prosecutor offer deferrence of prosecution to encourage cooperation with a court ordered social services plan thru family court, or would that be a totally separate issue from regaining custody? As in, "no criminal charges will be filed, as long as you are in compliance with, and cooperating with, the family court ordered social services plan."

I do know that cooperation with a court ordered social services plan would usually be a requirement for regaining custody. I'm just wondering how that meshes with possible criminal charges.

For example, in the Shanesha Taylor case (woman in AZ who left her tiny kids in a hot car while interviewing), she did not comply (chronically) with some of the deferred prosecution agreement items, and eventually charges were reinstated. She faces trial in a few weeks. Her case was in both criminal court and family court. (But she had criminal charges from the very beginning, and the Stanley's apparently have not been charged criminally.)
 
I have known Southern Baptists who do drink, so we'll have to agree to disagree. The flesh is weak for some; but not all.

I am a Southern Baptist. Some are adamantly against any alcoholic drink and others are not. Some feel it would damage their testimony so don't publicly drink. The official stance of the Southern Baptist Convention and all the SB pastors that I know is no drinking at all. My studied opinion is that drunkeness (not all drinking) and gluttony are in the same category - both are equal sins - but I don't think I've ever heard a sermon on gluttony. :D
 
By the way, I'm curious as to the source/ accuracy of the information that HS is Southern Baptist? I haven't seen anything that specifically mentions a denominational affiliation. I'm not doubting that he could be Southern Baptist, but he could also be simply a Bible-based Christian fundamentalist, as well-- or may identify in another way. (Or not.)

On the Stanley Family website his daughter identifies him as "semi-retired" pastor. As we all know, that could mean a lot of things from "officially" educated and ordained in a structured mainstream denomination, to a self-proclaimed title, to a "buy an ordination" title from an internet source, like the link below. Lots of people identify themselves as pastors who have not had any formal religious education or ordination. AFAIK, he hasn't said one way or another in interviews or on his website. We know he is apparently a Christian Bible-literalist/ fundamentalist from his recorded sermons, but I'm not sure we know about denominational affiliation. (Are their links?)

While I'm curious, it doesn't really matter which denomination, if any, he identifies with. It's the behavior with the children that's legally important. But knowing someone's affiliation helps to more accurately interpret the motivation behind certain behaviors, IMO-- as with Christian Scientists, etc.

http://www.themonastery.org/?utm_co...398-1584155643&utm_campaign=Become+a+Minister
 
Yet another recent sad and tragic case of religious child abuse (well, triple murder, in this case). Thankfully, IMO, the Stanley kids were removed before something like this happened.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/utah-parents-showed-troubling-signs-before-deaths/ar-AA8ExSF

This case was NOT a "religious abuse" case.
This was a case of untreated mental illness.
This was a case with a history of drug use.
This was a case of the parents believing their children would be better off dead.

The family is trying VERY hard to raise awareness of mental illness.
They wish they could have prevented this by having the parents treated. :twocents:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?258073-UT-Parents-and-3-Children-Found-Dead-in-Home
 
This case was NOT a "religious abuse" case.
This was a case of untreated mental illness.
This was a case with a history of drug use.
This was a case of the parents believing their children would be better off dead.

The family is trying VERY hard to raise awareness of mental illness.
They wish they could have prevented this by having the parents treated. :twocents:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?258073-UT-Parents-and-3-Children-Found-Dead-in-Home

It's okay-- we can disagree. But I have to ask, was Jim Jones/ Jonestown "just" untreated mental illness? Was Heaven's Gate "just" untreated mental illness?

Yes, there was drug use here (in the Utah case). Jim Jones used drugs, too. The Stanley parents endorse a highly dangerous bleach as a dietary supplement, and IMO, have probably made the kids take it, too. These parents (the Stracks in Utah) had religious apocalyptic paranoia, and ultimately committed murder/ suicide. The Stanley parents have family members and community members that are worried about them, too. Where do you draw the line on what is religious extremism, and where that extremism crosses the line into mental illness? Are the middle east fundamentalist terrorists mentally ill, or "just" religious fundamentalists?

For me, the answer to that is where *belief* crosses over into actions and behaviors that harm or kill others.
 
By the way, I'm curious as to the source/ accuracy of the information that HS is Southern Baptist? I haven't seen anything that specifically mentions a denominational affiliation. I'm not doubting that he could be Southern Baptist, but he could also be simply a Bible-based Christian fundamentalist, as well-- or may identify in another way. (Or not.)

On the Stanley Family website his daughter identifies him as "semi-retired" pastor. As we all know, that could mean a lot of things from "officially" educated and ordained in a structured mainstream denomination, to a self-proclaimed title, to a "buy an ordination" title from an internet source, like the link below. Lots of people identify themselves as pastors who have not had any formal religious education or ordination. AFAIK, he hasn't said one way or another in interviews or on his website. We know he is apparently a Christian Bible-literalist/ fundamentalist from his recorded sermons, but I'm not sure we know about denominational affiliation. (Are their links?)

While I'm curious, it doesn't really matter which denomination, if any, he identifies with. It's the behavior with the children that's legally important. But knowing someone's affiliation helps to more accurately interpret the motivation behind certain behaviors, IMO-- as with Christian Scientists, etc.

http://www.themonastery.org/?utm_co...398-1584155643&utm_campaign=Become+a+Minister

IMO, they are most likely self proclaimed in their occupations. I haven't seen any credentials.
 
This case was NOT a "religious abuse" case.
This was a case of untreated mental illness.
This was a case with a history of drug use.
This was a case of the parents believing their children would be better off dead.

The family is trying VERY hard to raise awareness of mental illness.
They wish they could have prevented this by having the parents treated. :twocents:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?258073-UT-Parents-and-3-Children-Found-Dead-in-Home

I applaud the family's willingness to address it and bring awareness. A tragic case for sure and I agree with you that it has absolutely nothing to do with this case. I've not seen any allegations of mental illness or narcotics use in this case. A mineral supplement used by an incredibly healthy looking elderly man is nowhere in the same category as heroin and methadone.

JMO
 
I cannot believe how many people seem to think that people who reservations about the Stanley's parenting techniques seem to feel that religion is being attacked. My suspicions are that the police ended up at the Stanley's house and that their children ended up in care is because of the Stanley's behavior. We may never know what exactly this behavior was given the confidentiality laws that protect the privacy of the children (and, often, CPS itself) but I am fine with that. What matters to me is that the children are safe. Can religion be abused? Can extreme religious interpretations of religion itself be abused. Yes, of course. There are many actions taken and justified by religion that have horrendous results, both for individuals and globally. I would be glad to offer a few examples if anyone thinks such examples are wanting.
 
Agree, daisytrail.

Hyperreligiosity has been well described for over a hundred years in psychiatric literature. It is particularly associated with bipolar mania, as well as psychosis-- even in the absence of things like substance abuse, as in the Strack family. (Search hyperreligiosity and mental illness, and there will be thousands of articles and discussions.)

There is no doubt in the psych/ mental health profession that hyperreligiosity can be the outward evidence of mental illness-- it's a symptom of dysfunctional thinking. Whether it is clinical mental illness, or not, has to do with how and the extent to which it affects the life of the hyperreligious person and those around them. Does the hyperreligious behavior lead to healthy relationships and behaviors, or is it harmful, abusive, and destructive?

IMO, there is no doubt that HS is hyperreligious, and has built his life and his family's life around his hyperreligious thinking. He may have been a very different and more moderate person WRT religion earlier in his life, and perhaps only recently has evolved his thinking to include Biblically justified scourging of his children, and ingesting dangerous caustic substances. He could be developing clinically significant hyperreligiosity that is related to aging or mental decline, as I said earlier. I don't know the particulars of what when on in that home-- only those kids and family members know what happens behind closed doors. But mental decline/ mental illness is one explanation for physical and psychological abuse that results from hyperreligiosity, IMO.

Of course, a lot of hyperreligious people don't believe in science, medicine, or psychology, so there you have it. Is hyperreligiosity admirable evidence of deep faith, or is it evidence of mental illness? Is hyperreligiosity admirable and healthy as long as it's benign, but only mental illness when the paranoia and compulsions lead to harming and killing others? Things to think about for all of us, for sure.
 
I cannot believe how many people seem to think that people who reservations about the Stanley's parenting techniques seem to feel that religion is being attacked. My suspicions are that the police ended up at the Stanley's house and that their children ended up in care is because of the Stanley's behavior. We may never know what exactly this behavior was given the confidentiality laws that protect the privacy of the children (and, often, CPS itself) but I am fine with that. What matters to me is that the children are safe. Can religion be abused? Can extreme religious interpretations of religion itself be abused. Yes, of course. There are many actions taken and justified by religion that have horrendous results, both for individuals and globally. I would be glad to offer a few examples if anyone thinks such examples are wanting.

I'm curious what extreme religious interpretation of his religion has been demonstrated by Rev. Stanley? The Southern Baptist Convention still is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. Are all 16 million also extreme? That's not up to me to judge, imo.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a Christian denomination based in the United States of America. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination and the largest Protestant body in the United States, with nearly 16 million members as of 2012.[1] This also makes it the second largest Christian body in the United States, after the Catholic Church.[2]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention
 
I'm curious what extreme religious interpretation of his religion has been demonstrated by Rev. Stanley? The Southern Baptist Convention still is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a Christian denomination based in the United States of America. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination and the largest Protestant body in the United States, with nearly 16 million members as of 2012.[1] This also makes it the second largest Christian body in the United States, after the Catholic Church.[2]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention

From my post #371 above:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-from-Prepper-Family&p=11439477#post11439477

Do you have some evidence that HS is a Southern Baptist? Some sources or links? Because if not, all this discussion about Southern Baptists is irrelevant.

IIRC, you were the first one in this thread to identify HS as a Southern Baptist, so I'm curious where you came to that conclusion. Is it just because it's dominant in the south?
 
Thank you KZ for a professional post on my thoughts. My mind was all over the place trying to find the words for something that I felt had a basis of "fear".

One person with a unhealthy mindset can have a tremendous impact on all others in the home, especially if they are the leader of the household and are determined to instill that mindset on everyone else.
 
In my state and many others, CPS does not seize kids, police do. The policy is dictated in part by a 6th Circuit Court decision.


My state isn't Arkansas and our CPS policies are dictated in part by a decision about the removal of children without a warrant or exigent circumstances. The Court decided there were no exigent circumstances in the case below.

We now turn to whether the law was clearly established on March 26, 2002, that a social worker could not seize children from their home without a warrant, exigent circumstances, or another recognized exception.

No. 11-4002
Kovacic et al. v. Cuyahoga Cnty. et al.
The social workers argue that the district court erred in denying their motion for summary judgment based on qualified immunity,
contending that exigent circumstances existed and that the relevant Fourth and
Fourteenth Amendment rights were not clearly established as of March 26, 2002.

A. Violation of a Constitutional Right
“[A] social worker, like other state officers, is governed by the Fourth
Amendment’s warrant requirement.”
Andrews v. Hickman Cnty.
, 700 F.3d 845, 859
(6th Cir. 2012). “This would simply mean that social workers would have to obtain consent, have sufficient grounds to believe that exigent circumstances exist, or qualify
under another recognized exception to the warrant requirement before engaging in
warrantless entries and searches of homes.”
Id.
at 859–60. Here, the social workers did not have a warrant to remove the children from their home. They argue that they complied with the Fourth Amendment nonetheless due to exigent circumstances.

When taken in the light most favorable to the children, as we must on the social
workers’ summary-judgment motion, these circumstances cited by the social
workers—reliance on weeks-old incidents and Nancy having missed the March 26
meeting—simply do not constitute exigent circumstances as a matter of law.


http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0201p-06.pdf

Ok. Again, I'm not sure what state you're talking about but the 6th circuit covers Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio and Tennessee and in none of those states have I found that is it mandated that law enforcement remove the children. However, typically DCS has LE assist with removals from homes due to the danger aspect. If they remove a child when the child is at school, they typically won't utilize LE to assist.

Now in TN, there was an initial flurry as a result of the decisions you are talking about, which held that 4th amendment restrictions to search and seizure without a warrant apply also to DCF/DCS workers. DCS in TN panicked and instituted a rule that they would not remove children from homes without a hearing. That rule was quickly rescinded and they now can only enter and remove a child from a home without a warrant if there are exigent circumstances.

The other three states covered by the 6th circuit had rules in place that mirrored the exigent circumstances requirement, before TN did. http://archive.tennessean.com/artic...-reverses-policy-removing-children-from-homes

Well, that's pretty much how it is in most states. I don't know of one state in which any government agency is allowed to rush into a home and remove a child from that home, without a showing of imminent harm to the kids. It's akin to an officer responding to a call and hearing a person screaming for help inside a home. The officer does not need to wait for a warrant. They can enter. But only if there is an emergency situation.

But in the case you cited, DCS and the sheriff's department were acting on weeks old reports and apparently did not see evidence of an immediate risk of harm. So, they were found to have acted outside the limits of the fourth amendment and its exceptions by entering the home without a warrant or permission and then taking the kids.

However, those cases do not apply to this one. Let me make clear that the 6th circuit cases are really about entering a home to conduct an investigation, without a warrant. Those cases are about whether LE or DCF can demand and effectuate entry and search without a warrant. They are not about whether children can be placed into custody without a warrant. Warrants aren't needed at all to take kids.

For example, if a child had been taken to a doctor and the doctor noticed signs of abuse, or if the child was at school and the school noticed signs of abuse, the 4th amendment would not apply to DCS or LE taking the child into custody. The issue is whether they are allowed to rush into someone's home in order to investigate a possible removal. There is a distinction.

But since many removals occur when the child is at home, it is crucial that the policies and procedures used not be violative of the constitution. In this case, there is certainly no evidence that there were such violations.

In this case, LE was present and had a warrant to enter and search the home, so that part was taken care of. They didn't have a warrant to take the kids, but as no warrant is needed to take children into custody, that didn't matter.

Clrealy, however, LE and DCS found there wqere signs that the children were at risk of imminent harm, thus the kids were removed. In Arkansas and in most states whose law I have reviewed, government agencies can take emergency custody of children without a court order (not warrant), if there is evdience of imminent harm. That is true in Arkansas. Per the law I cited in AR, children may be immediately removed from their parents' custody without a curt order if it is determined that a child is at risk of severe maltreatment.

That is apparently what happened here.

There is a message/ update on the facebook page supporting the Stanley parents, reportedly from Michelle Stanley. She states they began their "social services" yesterday, and that the kids are doing fine, and she can't talk about other details.

I'm guessing the courts have mandated a number of social services requirements for HS and MS, as a step toward eventual reunification, and that presumably MS (and presumably HS) are cooperating with the court's requirements.

I'm not sure if that would also indicate that criminal charges are more unlikely-- perhaps gitana1 can comment on this. I'm sure the prosecutor could still file charges if indicated, but wonder if the "social services" requirements they are engaging in make that more remote?

A related question for gitana1, if willing to answer.

Would a prosecutor offer deferrence of prosecution to encourage cooperation with a court ordered social services plan thru family court, or would that be a totally separate issue from regaining custody? As in, "no criminal charges will be filed, as long as you are in compliance with, and cooperating with, the family court ordered social services plan."

I do know that cooperation with a court ordered social services plan would usually be a requirement for regaining custody. I'm just wondering how that meshes with possible criminal charges.

For example, in the Shanesha Taylor case (woman in AZ who left her tiny kids in a hot car while interviewing), she did not comply (chronically) with some of the deferred prosecution agreement items, and eventually charges were reinstated. She faces trial in a few weeks. Her case was in both criminal court and family court. (But she had criminal charges from the very beginning, and the Stanley's apparently have not been charged criminally.)

I do think that if the family adheres to a social services safety plan, they are reducing their risk of being prosecuted. It may be a factor that the DA may consider in determining whether to charge them.

A prosecutor could offer deferred prosecution as long as the safety plan was followed but like you said, the parents haven't been charged and they would need to be charged first.
 
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