NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

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Disappearing and taking on new identity is not a common occurrence at all; however, those that pull it off had little to no money, no real plan, and seemingly were not all undiscovered geniuses.

I wonder though if a car hit Maura if she might have rolled up on the hood and caused serious damage? Most drunk drivers are habitual drunk drivers (especially on a Monday night). So let's say that a person with three DUIs already and some other legal problems hit Maura and killed her. There is no one on the road. He might be tempted and drunk enough to lift the 120 pound Maura into his car and dispose of her body somewhere way out in the middle of nowhere. To me this scenario is more likely than someone kidnapping her out there.
 
SchoolgirlShamus said:
Agreed. There are several reasons she might have left the road at some point. Maybe she ran a few miles down the road, then darted into the woods to avoid police. She'd probably rather get ticketed for leaving the scene of an accident than get a DUI, which at least in my state means mandatory jail time.

Or maybe she left the road because an approaching car slowed down, and given her vulnerable situation and the unknown intentions of the driver, she was afraid. She could have left the road far enough from the accident scene that her footprints were not noticed, or she could have gone up a driveway or side road, then entered the woods from there.
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If the person Rick Forcier saw that night was indeed Maura, then this is exactly what happened.
 
I have been following this case for a few years and this is my first time posting only because of an observation and/or thought regarding the alcohol. The police have said that her recepit showed about $40 worth was purchased. Taking into account that the box of wine was found and nondebatably part of her purchase that will be probably about half of the $40. From my own personal drinks of choice the other liquor was the makings of a white russian and given the small amount of money left out of what was spent my guess is she bought nips. Which in a few hours would probably be consumed while driving. Also if the Seagrams were in fact purchased they come in packs of 4 and taste like juice. Again easy to consume in a few hours. Just a thought. I'm sure I haven't read far enough and someone else mentioned this. Carry on.
 
Without question, I would love to see a copy of the receipt. But good point, nonetheless. $40 is not a lot to spend, even in 2004. I think a lot us have visualized full bottles here, and if we're talking about a "nip" of Kahlua, well that could have been finished and tossed out the window as far back as MA. That would certainly put a different perspective on things versus her putting a full size Kahlua bottle, among other items in a backpack.

I've never really thought Maura was heavily intoxicated at the time. But she definitely had enough to get a good buzz and impair her thought process. Surely if she was wasted, Atwood would have repeatedly stressed that during questioning.
 
Anyone had any further ideas about the rag in the tailpipe?

After the second crash, police found a 'rag' in the exhaust pipe. Fred Murray identified it as being from Maura's car, and said that he had told her to put a rag in the tailpipe if it smoked while she drove.

However, cars don't run very well, if at all, with a blocked exhaust. Fred's 'advice' to Maura was terrible - why did he claim he told her that? It must have been put there after the accident or very shortly before (if the car could even start with a rag blocking it).

How did he recognise this 'rag'? I don't think that when I was at university my parents would have much idea of what I kept in my car, so that leads me to think the rag was distinctive in some way - maybe an old shirt?

I wish there had been some real investigation into this. It's a major problem with Fred's story, and while I'm not normally one to blame him, this never sat right with me.
 
Captain_Khan said:
Anyone had any further ideas about the rag in the tailpipe?

After the second crash, police found a 'rag' in the exhaust pipe. Fred Murray identified it as being from Maura's car, and said that he had told her to put a rag in the tailpipe if it smoked while she drove.

However, cars don't run very well, if at all, with a blocked exhaust. Fred's 'advice' to Maura was terrible - why did he claim he told her that? It must have been put there after the accident or very shortly before (if the car could even start with a rag blocking it).

How did he recognise this 'rag'? I don't think that when I was at university my parents would have much idea of what I kept in my car, so that leads me to think the rag was distinctive in some way - maybe an old shirt?

I wish there had been some real investigation into this. It's a major problem with Fred's story, and while I'm not normally one to blame him, this never sat right with me.
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On Sam Ledyard's old blog, he theorized that the rag was stashed into the tail-pipe following the accident because Maura used it to quickly mop up spilled alcohol from the open container she had in her car. Fred's explanation that it was there to patch up some existing holes in the exhaust was a cover story designed to protect his daughter in case she turned up alive and had to face charges for DUI/fleeing the scene. That has the ring of truth to it, at least in my opinion.
 
Pettibon Junction said:
On Sam Ledyard's old blog, he theorized that the rag was stashed into the tail-pipe after the accident after Maura used it to quickly mop up spilled alcohol from the open container she had in her car and that Fred's explanation that it was there to patch up some existing holes in the exhaust was a cover story designed to protect his daughter in case she turned up alive and had to face charges for DUI/fleeing the scene. That has the ring of truth to it, at least in my opinion.
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Ha, amazing.

I didn't want to include that in my post, because I didn't want to start this discussion on a bias, but that's been my theory for years. Only real stumbling block to that theory is the fact that Fred must have realised what the rag was for and why it was stashed there, then come up with his (quite frankly dumb) defense of it on the fly. Without knowing how he reacted to the initial question, it's hard to judge.

However, due to the lack of testing done on the rag, it will probably never be known if it had any mystery materials on it...
 
Captain_Khan said:
Only real stumbling block to that theory is the fact that Fred must have realised what the rag was for and why it was stashed there, then come up with his (quite frankly dumb) defense of it on the fly. Without knowing how he reacted to the initial question, it's hard to judge.
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Well, Fred is/was a drinker who was in the habit of hitting the brew pubs with his daughter. Perhaps he recognized the rag in the tail-pipe as one of his own tricks - one that he personally taught her.
 
The rag is peculiar; in all my years I've never heard of a rag being used for a leaky muffler or to reduce exhaust smoke.

From what I understand the rag was fairly deep inside the muffler, so I've always been curious as to how it was spotted and how it even stayed put.

It's strange, but I've always viewed it as some misguided advice from Fred that Maura followed.
 
I always thought that Fred's response to the rag in the tailpipe was his initial attempt to cover a possible suicide situation. It is bizarre to say the least. When he was trying to dispel his original comment that Maura may have been intent on suicide, I believe he quickly blurted out that she put it there at his suggestion, so people would not consider it a suicide attempt by her. He was so intent on dispelling the suicide idea that he was then unable to use the rag to support his "dirtbag" theory. It would have supported it perfectly, regardless of how effective it would have been in disabling the car (not very), it would have immediately created a suspect and probably changed the direction of the investigation into her disappearance.
 
What I'm curious about is if Fred volunteered the information about the rag in the tailpipe without LE bringing it up, or did they ask him about it first? Do we have a concrete answer on this?
 
BillNH said:
I always thought that Fred's response to the rag in the tailpipe was his initial attempt to cover a possible suicide situation. It is bizarre to say the least. When he was trying to dispel his original comment that Maura may have been intent on suicide, I believe he quickly blurted out that she put it there at his suggestion, so people would not consider it a suicide attempt by her. He was so intent on dispelling the suicide idea that he was then unable to use the rag to support his "dirtbag" theory. It would have supported it perfectly, regardless of how effective it would have been in disabling the car (not very), it would have immediately created a suspect and probably changed the direction of the investigation into her disappearance.
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Suicide makes a lot of sense to me as to why the rag was put there. You don't stuff a rag in a pipe to hide after wiping up an alcohol spill or to stop smoke.

Fred made up the excuse to cover her suicide attempt. There must be some deep dark secrets in that family and this is why Fred routinely says that the days before she went missing don't matter.

I believe the friends she was with hours before she disappeared know the reason she is missing as well.

Just not sure if she carried out her suicide, was murdered by a dirt bag, or she ran away. I think suicide is most probable but can't rule out the others.
 
Pettibon Junction said:
On Sam Ledyard's old blog, he theorized that the rag was stashed into the tail-pipe following the accident because Maura used it to quickly mop up spilled alcohol from the open container she had in her car. Fred's explanation that it was there to patch up some existing holes in the exhaust was a cover story designed to protect his daughter in case she turned up alive and had to face charges for DUI/fleeing the scene. That has the ring of truth to it, at least in my opinion.
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The only source I can find for the rag story is this 2007 article from the Whitmanhansonexpress.com archive, so archived MSM as far as I can tell. It is from a footnote in the Wikipedia Maura Murray entry referencing the rag in the tail pipe;

http://web.archive.org/web/20100217...sing-part-ii-the-accident&catid=912&Itemid=83

"Sgt. Smith also found a rag stuffed into the exterior tail pipe of Maura's Saturn. The rag came from the trunk of Maura's car, according to Fred Murray, who said he had stored the rag along with an emergency roadside kit in the Saturn.
Whether Maura stuffed the rag in the tailpipe herself and what her motivation could have been remains unclear.

Stuffing a rag into a tail pipe would stall the vehicle and it would eventually kill the engine, according to Ferry's Automotive in Hanson. Plugging the tailpipe can also be a way to check for leaks in a vehicle's exhaust system. While carbon monoxide poisoning is a common method of attempting suicide, it would normally require a means of feeding the deadly gas back into the vehicle, such as by hose or in a confined space."
<snipped, read more>

I do recall a blog report that she was using her phone to see in the trunk, but again this archive is the only MSM reference I find;

"After Atwood drove away, Faith Westman noticed the Saturn's interior lights switch on and off and witnessed a flurry of activity at the rear of the car, including a person standing at the trunk, according to private investigator John Smith, who spoke with the Westmans after the accident. "

I think that Maura knew well that a rag in the pipe would cause back pressure and stall the car, then she could use stalling as an excuse for the crash since the power steering is lost if the engine dies. I think she also knew that a blocked pipe, as when stranded In the snow, does kill people but usually after they go to sleep and after a long period outside. I don't think she wanted to wait that long. Personally I don't think suicide was her motive for being there. IMO

MOO
 
If it was a "staged" accident, I can't see her plugging up the tailpipe so that the car would stall and cause a crash. In that scenario, she would have had no control of when and how the actual crash would happen. It's one thing to cruise into a snow bank, but quite another to have a head-on collision with a truck, which could easily be fatal - not good if the goal was not to get severely injured or die.
 
nycpizzaparty said:
If it was a "staged" accident, I can't see her plugging up the tailpipe so that the car would stall and cause a crash. In that scenario, she would have had no control of when and how the actual crash would happen. It's one thing to cruise into a snow bank, but quite another to have a head-on collision with a truck, which could easily be fatal - not good if the goal was not to get severely injured or die.
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Maybe I wasn't clear - I don't think she "staged" the accident, I think she stuffed the tail pipe afterward to use it as an excuse for the actual accident and take the focus off her drinking and previous accident, etc.

If Fred had not said he knew about the rag she could have used it as some sort of vandalism that caused her to crash. She left the keys in it, she knew they would start it and it would stall IMO
 
Sorry to misinterpret your post. The whole rag in the tailpipe thing is so odd. I like the theory that it was perhaps a signal from Maura to non-LE person(s). I have another thought that an unknown party stuffed the rag in there to cause her to crash without her knowledge, which is something I hadn't thought about before but doesn't fit into any working theories I am aware of...
 
BillNH said:
I always thought that Fred's response to the rag in the tailpipe was his initial attempt to cover a possible suicide situation. It is bizarre to say the least. When he was trying to dispel his original comment that Maura may have been intent on suicide, I believe he quickly blurted out that she put it there at his suggestion, so people would not consider it a suicide attempt by her. He was so intent on dispelling the suicide idea that he was then unable to use the rag to support his "dirtbag" theory. It would have supported it perfectly, regardless of how effective it would have been in disabling the car (not very), it would have immediately created a suspect and probably changed the direction of the investigation into her disappearance.
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THis is exactly what I believe to be true.

I believe fred was confronted about this rag in the tailpipe, after he had led police to believe Maura came to their area to do personal harm to herself.

At the point fred was confronted, he quickly made up a story to explain it away.

A clogged up tailpipe could very easily lead to death (see Buckwild mtv show deaths) but in that situation, Maura likely didn't have enough time and probably quickly moved on to another plan.



BTW,

A certain (pretty cool IMO) cat will be next in line and featured on the Maura Murray Documentary Podcast which I am thinking will be released Thursday.

I hope to continue providing assistance to Tim and Lance in the future, we covered some ground, but still have a lot to go.
 
I'm just going to forget all about Fred for a moment. I'm just brainstorming ideas about the rag.

Reasonable reasons to put a rag in an exhaust:
- To test if there is a leak in the exhaust
- Childish prank

Crazy reasons to put a rag in an exhaust:
- Suicide attempt (very unlikely to work, but a possible attempt by someone not of sound mind?)
- To hide something (possible... but why, when you have a perfectly good bag?)
- To blame an accident on (to avoid DUI?)
- To prevent the car from being driven away (but, as far as I know, Maura kept the car key

Reasons you don't put a rag in an exhaust:
- To make a car run badly (If the blockage was only partical, the rag would almost certainly be expelled quickly. If it created a total block, the car won't run)
- To stop the exhaust smoking (wtf Fred?)

scoops said:
A clogged up tailpipe could very easily lead to death (see Buckwild mtv show deaths) but in that situation, Maura likely didn't have enough time and probably quickly moved on to another plan.
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Untrue. It's actually very difficult to commit suicide in this manner, and that is why most people use a hosepipe in an enclosed space. Outside, and without a hose, the concentration just isn't high enough to cause death. The Buckwild case you cite involved a car partially submerged in mud, and is still notable because of the rarity.

Of course, it doesn't really matter what the facts are. What we need to ask is, "what did Maura think?". If she thought it was a valid way to kill herself, then the fact that it wasn't doesn't matter at all. Personally, though, I think a nurse-in-training might know a bit more about the human body than a lay person.
 
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