Book released by Defense Attorney, Nov 2015 #2

YESorNO · Dec 11, 2015

Legally Speaking: Kirk Nurmi Interview - Part 5 (final)

[video=youtube;uBljQh-_A_Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBljQh-_A_Q[/video]

pocketaccent · Dec 11, 2015

YESorNO said:
Trapped with Ms. Arias (continued)

Chapter 47

-L considers the car rented at Redding Airport- to avoid detection? - he doesn't believe that- didn't make sense to him (whether premeditation happened then)

-have to give driver's license/credit card to rental agency- not covert- brother's neighbor drove the murderer to airport- created witnesses and "paper trial"

"I believe Ms. Arias when she said that Redding was simply a bigger town with better prices"

-but, L considers- why rent car at all?- why not drive own car?- his theory: she didn't want anyone to recognize her in Mesa- but "not many people in Mesa knew what type of car she drove"

-L states he thought real reason rent car- so she could "go safely"- he didn't think her car would make it to Ca and Utah- no routine maintenance on her car

- doesn't make sense to L that the murderer was "planning to kill Mr. Alexander at this time"

L speaks of next step on road trip: Monterey, CA- several things happened, but can only speak of

-the murderer visits former boyfriends- Matt and Darryl- "why create witnesses?" - why borrow gas can "that she doesn't need?"

-the murderer conducted banking transactions- created electronic trail- means she has "plenty of cash available to her if she wanted to go into Arizona covertly"- she could have bought things with cash- then no record of transactions, but she deposited cash into her accounts- leaves a trial

- the gas can bought at Walmart- Salinas, CA- L did not think this too significant in 2011- if she had plenty of cash to buy gas

"...it actually negated premeditation in my mind because (thought it made no real sense to buy it at all), as my thinking went; why would you buy a gas can if you already have two gas cans and were going on a covert mission? Not only that, she kept the receipt.....why wouldn't she throw a way the receipt?" (pg. 272)

L speaks of next step- Pasadena, CA- the murderer purchased several gallons of gas at convenience store- some with cash- some credit card- why use credit card- if she paid cash, no trace of her buying gas or how much gas- doesn't speak to L of premed

-somewhere "very close to city" [Pasadena].. she goes.. "off the grid"- cell phone off- makes no purchases- between 9pm- 10pm night of 6/3/2008

L speaks of next stop- TA's home- what happened there we "..,at least in part, rely on what" the murderer said happened

================================================== =

(continue)

Snipped.

Nurmi made so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin to counter argue.

Here's just one of many.
JA used her debit cards in only certain parts of her trip ON PURPOSE!! So she can say, 'Look at all my receipts. My activities from Yreka to Pasadena are documented. Then I went to Utah. From Utah back to Yreka, again all documented.'

Yes, she went to the airport with brother, stopped at bank, Mcdonald, and visited with Brewer and MM, etc. = The same concept. This is so she can say later, 'I have nothing to hide. Ask them about my visits, look at alllllll of my receipts. My roadtrip was about visiting friends and Ryan. I was never in Mesa."

She did all these on purpose! These were to serve as her alibis.
How can Nurmi not see this simple logic???????????

Hope4More · Dec 11, 2015

pocketaccent said:
Snipped.

Nurmi made so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin to counter argue.

Here's just one of many.
JA used her debit cards in only certain parts of her trip ON PURPOSE!! So she can say, 'Look at all my receipts. My activities from Yreka to Pasadena are documented. Then I went to Utah. From Utah back to Yreka, again all documented.'

Yes, she went to the airport with brother, stopped at bank, Mcdonald, and visited with Brewer and MM, etc. = The same concept. This is so she can say later, 'I have nothing to hide. Ask them about my visits, look at alllllll of my receipts. My roadtrip was about visiting friends and Ryan. I was never in Mesa."

She did all these on purpose! These were to serve as her alibis.
How can Nurmi not see this simple logic???????????

Because the man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest (Simon and Garfunkel).

And because in all honesty and with all due respect, I think L. Nurmi is a mediocre trial attorney of average intelligence, and IMO, woefully subpar in matters of emotional intelligence and very likely carrying significant baggage of his own.

G&AMom · Dec 11, 2015

pocketaccent said:
Snipped.

Nurmi made so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin to counter argue.

Here's just one of many.
JA used her debit cards in only certain parts of her trip ON PURPOSE!! So she can say, 'Look at all my receipts. My activities from Yreka to Pasadena are documented. Then I went to Utah. From Utah back to Yreka, again all documented.'

Yes, she went to the airport with brother, stopped at bank, Mcdonald, and visited with Brewer and MM, etc. = The same concept. This is so she can say later, 'I have nothing to hide. Ask them about my visits, look at alllllll of my receipts. My roadtrip was about visiting friends and Ryan. I was never in Mesa."

She did all these on purpose! These were to serve as her alibis.
How can Nurmi not see this simple logic???????????

You pretty well nailed it there, pocket. My favorite part of YorN's latest write up is that Nurmi thinks because Jodi didn't kill Travis the minute she arrived at his house means there was no premeditation, and when she killed him later, that was just a heat of the moment thing. Say what?!

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

GigiG · Dec 11, 2015

pocketaccent said:
Snipped.

Nurmi made so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin to counter argue.

Here's just one of many.
JA used her debit cards in only certain parts of her trip ON PURPOSE!! So she can say, 'Look at all my receipts. My activities from Yreka to Pasadena are documented. Then I went to Utah. From Utah back to Yreka, again all documented.'

Yes, she went to the airport with brother, stopped at bank, Mcdonald, and visited with Brewer and MM, etc. = The same concept. This is so she can say later, 'I have nothing to hide. Ask them about my visits, look at alllllll of my receipts. My roadtrip was about visiting friends and Ryan. I was never in Mesa."

She did all these on purpose! These were to serve as her alibis.
How can Nurmi not see this simple logic???????????

Without having read the book (I'm going by YesorNo's very detailed, ongoing synopses), I agree with all of the above. Even more irritating is that everything he says seems so very condescending.

Even though at times he seems to acknowledge that his intended audience are people like us (trial watchers), his pedantic explanations of things most lay people know is a bit insulting. Apparently, he goes into detail about what it means to sequester a jury, or, why he would ask for a change of venue. As if none of us knows that kind of stuff. WTH?

But back to the lack of logic, does anyone else remember this Mikee Daniels video?

[video=youtube;0gcrnKD2UAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gcrnKD2UAk[/video]

Just to summarize, Mikee Daniels is a self-professed "rocket scientist" working at a major California University. The way he does the math regarding the odds and probabilities of JA's story being in any way true is astounding. And very convincing. I defy any sane person to watch this video and come away with any doubt regarding JA's premeditation.

Nurmi should really watch it. And take some notes...

Lilibet · Dec 11, 2015

G&AMom said:
You pretty well nailed it there, pocket. My favorite part of YorN's latest write up is that Nurmi thinks because Jodi didn't kill Travis the minute she arrived at his house means there was no premeditation, and when she killed him later, that was just a heat of the moment thing. Say what?!

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

That fallacy jumped out at me too. It would be just like JA to savor the time she spent with Travis before killing him and get him relaxed with his guard down. Nurmi did say that they were sexually addicted to each other, despite their anger, so I don't think it's strange at all that JA would wait to kill him until they had sex (assuming they actually did). But it's pretty hard for any of us (including Nurmi) to actually make assumptions based on what JA might have thought. Her mind is a tangled web IMO.

samspace070 · Dec 12, 2015

pocketaccent said:
Snipped.

Nurmi made so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin to counter argue.

Here's just one of many.
JA used her debit cards in only certain parts of her trip ON PURPOSE!! So she can say, 'Look at all my receipts. My activities from Yreka to Pasadena are documented. Then I went to Utah. From Utah back to Yreka, again all documented.'

Yes, she went to the airport with brother, stopped at bank, Mcdonald, and visited with Brewer and MM, etc. = The same concept. This is so she can say later, 'I have nothing to hide. Ask them about my visits, look at alllllll of my receipts. My roadtrip was about visiting friends and Ryan. I was never in Mesa."

She did all these on purpose! These were to serve as her alibis.
How can Nurmi not see this simple logic???????????

You are spot on pocketaccent, I thought the exact same thing. He acts like the gas cans are no big deal, but he sure tried to lie about it in his closing. It was a big deal and he knew it and his client LIED about the third can. She needed three to get thru AZ. His theory doesn't even hold water. If Monica Lindstrom wasn't such a CMJA lover she would have said something to him. And there is no text from TA that asked this bimbo to come to see him. He lied about that and so did JA. I just wonder what is hidden in all those sealed documents. More prejudicial evidence about his client he don't want us to know. He is a worthless attorney and a LIAR to boot.

samspace070 · Dec 12, 2015

Aghast said:
Nurmi needs to stop complaining about the criticism he recieved in the social media. Did he forget he started a Twitter account as well as that joke of a mitigation specialist? I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. This is a bitter man that got his feelings hurt and this book of his is his turn to diss those that hurt his widdle feelies.

Aghast, you are brilliant. He did get his widdle feelies hurt and he wants to punish the people that hurt them.

pocketaccent · Dec 12, 2015

Hope4More said:
Because the man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest (Simon and Garfunkel).

And because in all honesty and with all due respect, I think L. Nurmi is a mediocre trial attorney of average intelligence, and IMO, woefully subpar in matters of emotional intelligence and very likely carrying significant baggage of his own.

G&AMom said:
You pretty well nailed it there, pocket. My favorite part of YorN's latest write up is that Nurmi thinks because Jodi didn't kill Travis the minute she arrived at his house means there was no premeditation, and when she killed him later, that was just a heat of the moment thing. Say what?!

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Nurmi was listening to the Simon and Garfunkel song a lot, the chorus part only. Play this while reading my post.

[video=youtube;PsdANnHWMCA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsdANnHWMCA[/video]
He really believed in her lies after all. When I heard his closing statement during the 1st trial, I thought he pretended to believe her lies and elaborated the lies in efforts to raise a reasonable doubt to some not-so-bright jurors that may be present.

I thought he knew better than what he was presenting and that he was doing his job, fulfilling his obligation as a defense attorney. I was wrong. He really believed in her lies. I'm really disappointed.

CarolinaMoon · Dec 12, 2015

Many thanks, YesorNo! The fact is, Nurmi constantly mentions that JA was a known liar. However, I don't believe we've had one word about her BPD and/or psychotic tendencies.

If I had been Nurmi, I would have been reading up on the symptoms of these disorders as they explain her behavior and motive to a T. Travis was a "possession" to her, simply there to fulfill HER wishes and dreams in terms of sex and financial support.

As for his feelings? Read the e-mails, full of passive-agressive tendencies and manipulation.

IfIMay · Dec 12, 2015

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm still having a hard time finding compassion for a man that wrote this book assuming he knows ANYTHING about Travis Alexander. His view is skewed by his client and until he OWNS that, I can't really feel much for him. Travis was a human being, beautifully written about above by many people much more eloquent than me. When and if L. Kirk has some compassion for the torment Travis, with his good heart and positive outlook, went through, I will withhold mine for him. Maybe that makes me more like him than I'd like, but I save my compassion for Stephen Alexander and the good people who's lives were also trashed because of the killer and the ::cough:: reluctant attorney.

I do think it is interesting that cancer seems to come to many a defense attorney who's goal was win at all costs. Look at the OJ team... and many others.

Hope4More · Dec 12, 2015

IfIMay said:
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm still having a hard time finding compassion for a man that wrote this book assuming he knows ANYTHING about Travis Alexander. His view is skewed by his client and until he OWNS that, I can't really feel much for him. Travis was a human being, beautifully written about above by many people much more eloquent than me. When and if L. Kirk has some compassion for the torment Travis, with his good heart and positive outlook, went through, I will withhold mine for him. Maybe that makes me more like him than I'd like, but I save my compassion for Stephen Alexander and the good people who's lives were also trashed because of the killer and the ::cough:: reluctant attorney.

I do think it is interesting that cancer seems to come to many a defense attorney who's goal was win at all costs. Look at the OJ team... and many others.

I think it must be easier on the soul to prosecute this kind of case, rather than to be the defender of the bad and of the even worse.

From what I've read on Nurmi's twitter, I think he sees himself as a principled idealist who is willing to defend the indefensible because it is the right thing to do, especially when the DP is on the table and the life of his client hangs in the balance.

A large portion of his dismay and anger seems to stem from his belief that we The Trial Watchers don't adequately appreciate his heroism, his noble ability to stand on principle and do what's right even when doing so came at such a high cost personally.

After following and reading about a number of capital cases, I've noticed that the DP- qualified defense bar seems to attract attorneys with personal beliefs very similar to Nurmi's. It makes sense to me that defenders of the worst of us need the psychological protection of assuring themselves they are in fact on the side of the angels.

And I imagine that part of how defenders of the worst do that is by buying into the stories they spin at trial, that although victims never deserve to be murdered, they share responsibility for their own deaths because of who they were or what they did.

I'm saying that I don't think Nurmi WANTS to see Travis Victor Alexander as what he was-- a victim of domestic violence and then of an unprovoked, brutal, premeditated murder. If he has to stand on his head, close his eyes and twist logic beyond recognition to get there, then that's what he'll do.

As to whether or not he is deserving of compassion. Who's to say, right? Talk about personal and individual choices! The man irritates me beyond all measure, but for some reason I feel not just compassion for him, but flat out sorry for him. IMO he seems very tormented by his own demons.

I do wish for the sake of those who loved Travis that Nurmi would have the good grace and common sense to wrestle with those demons in private, rather than to spill and spell them out in another 1,000 pages seemingly intended to serve no greater purpose than to make the author feel better about himself.

IfIMay · Dec 12, 2015

Hope4More said:
I think it must be easier on the soul to prosecute this kind of case, rather than to be the defender of the bad and of the even worse.

From what I've read on Nurmi's twitter, I think he sees himself as a principled idealist who is willing to defend the indefensible because it is the right thing to do, especially when the DP is on the table and the life of his client hangs in the balance.

A large portion of his dismay and anger seems to stem from his belief that we The Trial Watchers don't adequately appreciate his heroism, his noble ability to stand on principle and do what's right even when doing so came at such a high cost personally.

After following and reading about a number of capital cases, I've noticed that the DP- qualified defense bar seems to attract attorneys with personal beliefs very similar to Nurmi's. It makes sense to me that defenders of the worst of us need the psychological protection of assuring themselves they are in fact on the side of the angels.

And I imagine that part of how defenders of the worst do that is by buying into the stories they spin at trial, that although victims never deserve to be murdered, they share responsibility for their own deaths because of who they were or what they did.

I'm saying that I don't think Nurmi WANTS to see Travis Victor Alexander as what he was-- a victim of domestic violence and then of an unprovoked, brutal, premeditated murder. If he has to stand on his head, close his eyes and twist logic beyond recognition to get there, then that's what he'll do.

As to whether or not he is deserving of compassion. Who's to say, right? Talk about personal and individual choices! The man irritates me beyond all measure, but for some reason I feel not just compassion for him, but flat out sorry for him. IMO he seems very tormented by his own demons.

I do wish for the sake of those who loved Travis that Nurmi would have the good grace and common sense to wrestle with those demons in private, rather than to spill and spell them out in another 1,000 pages seemingly intended to serve no greater purpose than to make the author feel better about himself.

You are better than me, I guess. I don't see him wrestling any demons in all of this. He is just expanding his own ego and putting up his sarcastic wall to save himself from the quite right criticism he received. I don't see him turning any corner yet. When and if he does, I'll jump on the pity for him wagon. He chose how to take on his "noble" cause of saving a savage murderer. It was a PERSONAL choice, too. He chose to become death qualified and to take on these exact kind of cases and deal with the worst of the worst. So no hankie from me. I do hope his cancer is in remission, as I don't wish that hell on anyone. But that is as far as I can go. Maybe volume 2 or 3 of his diatribe will show some growth and accountability on his part for his contribution to that farce of a defense.

samspace070 · Dec 12, 2015

IfIMay said:
You are better than me, I guess. I don't see him wrestling any demons in all of this. He is just expanding his own ego and putting up his sarcastic wall to save himself from the quite right criticism he received. I don't see him turning any corner yet. When and if he does, I'll jump on the pity for him wagon. He chose how to take on his "noble" cause of saving a savage murderer. It was a PERSONAL choice, too. He chose to become death qualified and to take on these exact kind of cases and deal with the worst of the worst. So no hankie from me. I do hope his cancer is in remission, as I don't wish that hell on anyone. But that is as far as I can go. Maybe volume 2 or 3 of his diatribe will show some growth and accountability on his part for his contribution to that farce of a defense.

I wouldn't hold my breath. This Nurmi character is all about himself and what he feel and what he wants. He is a lot like his murderous client. But like you IfIMay, I sincerely hope his cancer is in remission.

Madeleine74 · Dec 12, 2015

Do you feel this way about all attorneys who work for the state's public defenders office? They've all taken the same oath and are required to provide a defense to the clients they are assigned. Or I guess they should all instead refuse to do the job and be disbarred rather than have to work on a case assigned to them?

Hope4More · Dec 12, 2015

Madeleine74 said:
Do you feel this way about all attorneys who work for the state's public defenders office? They've all taken the same oath and are required to provide a defense to the clients they are assigned. Or I guess they should all instead refuse to do the job and be disbarred rather than have to work on a case assigned to them?

Madeleine, I don't think anyone here thinks or feels that. Really.

This was a nasty case with an exceptionally despicable defendant, and an especially thin-skinned defense attorney who began taking everything trial related very personally early on.

I think everyone still here understands full well what his professional obligations were and why he had no choice but to provide her with the defense of her choice, no matter how vicious and ugly.

I think we're all equally aware, though, that Nurmi went further then he needed to go, and that his concerted attacks on Flores and JM were personal and had to do with Nurmi defending his own wounded ego, not his client.

Madeleine74 · Dec 12, 2015

I think everyone still here understands full well what his professional obligations were and why he had no choice but to provide her with the defense of her choice, no matter how vicious and ugly.

Hi Hope,

With all due respect it appears some do feel this way. Look up the couple posts above mine: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-Attorney-Nov-2015-2&p=12241287#post12241287

Hope4More · Dec 12, 2015

Madeleine74 said:
Hi Hope,

With all due respect it appears some do feel this way. Look up the couple posts above mine: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-Attorney-Nov-2015-2&p=12241287#post12241287

Hi back to you, Madeleine.

I followed your link which just kicks me to the top of this page, but I did reread all the posts here.

Perhaps the post you refer to is about Nurmi choosing to be DP- qualified, and so should have known what kind of client he's bound to have, and thus is undeserving of sympathy?

Your version is one interpretation of what was meant. Mine is different. I understood it to mean that Nurmi is asking for sympathy for the choices he made freely, and having made those choices freely should have understood he wasn't going to be beloved no matter what he did. Successful defenders of the most reviled don't get thrown ticker tape parades. If adulation is what is most important to Nurmi he made a very bad career choice indeed.

All of that is different- and more nuanced- than misunderstanding what his job was, and criticizing him for doing what he had to do.

And if I'm the one who is misunderstanding critiques of Nurmi, bad on me and please pipe up, those who I've misunderstood.

Lilibet · Dec 12, 2015

Hope4More said:
Madeleine, I don't think anyone here thinks or feels that. Really.

This was a nasty case with an exceptionally despicable defendant, and an especially thin-skinned defense attorney who began taking everything trial related very personally early on.

I think everyone still here understands full well what his professional obligations were and why he had no choice but to provide her with the defense of her choice, no matter how vicious and ugly.

I think we're all equally aware, though, that Nurmi went further then he needed to go, and that his concerted attacks on Flores and JM were personal and had to do with Nurmi defending his own wounded ego, not his client.

BBM

Respectfully, Nurmi went further than WE wanted him to go, but we have no way of knowing the motive for his attacks on Flores and JM. We really can't read his mind and say that he was thin-skinned and defending his wounded ego rather than JA. That's an opinion, not a provable fact. Personally, I disagree because I think he is a professional who knew how high the stakes were. While he's a human being with feelings, I cannot believe that personal feelings were a deciding factor in his actions. As much as I admire Juan, I can't imagine that he was easy to deal with!

JMO

Nurmi gave JA a defense that she will never successfully appeal IMO. I hated what he helped her do to Travis, but he did the job JA wanted him to do, saved her life, and there won't be endless death penalty appeals. Looking at the big picture, I thank him. Continued anger at him and scorn seems kind of pointless at this point. But that's just me.
JMO, MOO, etc.

Hope4More · Dec 12, 2015

Lilibet said:
BBM

Respectfully, Nurmi went further than WE wanted him to go, but we have no way of knowing the motive for his attacks on Flores and JM. We really can't read his mind and say that he was thin-skinned and defending his wounded ego rather than JA. That's an opinion, not a provable fact. Personally, I disagree because I think he is a professional who knew how high the stakes were. While he's a human being with feelings, I cannot believe that personal feelings were a deciding factor in his actions. As much as I admire Juan, I can't imagine that he was easy to deal with! JMO

Nurmi gave JA a defense that she will never successfully appeal IMO. I hated what he helped her do to Travis, but he did the job JA wanted him to do, saved her life, and there won't be endless death penalty appeals. Looking at the big picture, I thank him. Continued anger at him and scorn seems kind of pointless at this point. But that's just me.
JMO, MOO, etc.

Yes, it is a matter of opinion not fact that Nurmi is thin-skinned and acted on personal feelings in ADDITION to providing the killer the defense of her choice. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree on that point.

I base my opinion that he did so on a number of objective truths, though. Not least is the book he has chosen to write, which could just as easily have been an impassioned argument against the DP, or about the price he paid for successfully saving his client from the DP, and how it was worth it to him because he saved his client from a death sentence.

But, nope. That's not what he has written. He's written over 300 pages trashing his client, saying listening to her manipulate her mother and Donovan made him feel she deserved the DP, and trashing (and impugning the integrity of) JM, Flores, DeMarte, and Horn.

Sorry, I just don't see the slightest bit of professionalism in any of that. If you've read my recent posts you know I don't feel anger or scorn towards him.

I also don't believe he deserves a free pass, and given that even after trial he continues to trash the name of his client's victim, I don't think he is the slightest bit entitled to anything other than the additional scrutiny he's receiving.

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