Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #70 Appeal Verdict

Coldpizza · Feb 18, 2016

Oscar Pistorius to appeal murder conviction

"We filed papers with the Constitutional Court today asking them to grant us leave to appeal," defense lawyer Andrew Fawcett said.

Pistorius' lawyers have not said on what basis they would appeal the murder conviction at the Constitutional Court, and it was not immediately clear how long the court will take to decide whether it will hear the case.

[...]

In December, an appeals court threw out a lower court's lesser manslaughter conviction and found Pistorius guilty of murder. Days later, a judge in another court set an April sentencing date. At the time, prosecution spokesman Luvuyo Mfaku said the April date would allow the Constitutional Court time to decide whether it would hear Pistorius' appeal.

Thread 69

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Coldpizza · Feb 18, 2016

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sinth · Feb 19, 2016

Coldpizza said:
a judge in another court set an April sentencing date. At the time, prosecution spokesman Luvuyo Mfaku said the April date would allow the Constitutional Court time to decide whether it would hear Pistorius' appeal.

Come April, what happens if we have not heard anything from the Constitutional Court? I assume the DT will submit an application to adjourn the sentencing hearing to a later date?

JudgeJudi · Feb 19, 2016

That's my expectation.

soozieqtips · Feb 19, 2016

So how long can the defence team delay sentencing? Years?

JudgeJudi · Feb 19, 2016

If the ConCourt deny leave to appeal, OP will have one last chance to delay sentencing and that is by then appealing to the Chief Justice. If the CJ also denies leave, it's back to Masipa for sentencing. However, if leave is granted, it could be at least six months from that point before the appeal is heard.

soozieqtips · Feb 19, 2016

JudgeJudi said:
If the ConCourt deny leave to appeal, OP will have one last chance to delay sentencing and that is by then appealing to the Chief Justice. If the CJ also denies leave, it's back to Masipa for sentencing. However, if leave is granted, it could be at least six months before the appeal is heard.

It's a strange world where a convicted murderer can roam free indefinitely while waiting for an appeal instead of waiting behind bars like other convicted murderers. What a farce.

Belgarion · Feb 19, 2016

JudgeJudi said:
If the ConCourt deny leave to appeal, OP will have one last chance to delay sentencing and that is by then appealing to the Chief Justice. If the CJ also denies leave, it's back to Masipa for sentencing. However, if leave is granted, it could be at least six months from that point before the appeal is heard.

Do you think so?

There is nothing in the ConCourt Rules or Constitution to allow for this to happen

It would be perverse if the CJ could just arbitrarily overrule a majority decision of the rest of the bench. It would certainly open him up to suspicions of corruption.

This possibility of such a route was mentioned just once in the media and hasn’t been mentioned since so my feeling is it is not a viable option.

Belgarion · Feb 19, 2016

soozieqtips said:
So how long can the defence team delay sentencing? Years?

Seems from the Concourt website the average time from application to the hearing for the leave to appeal is 6 months

Then maybe another 3 months before the judgement is delivered

Roux knows how to delay things!

Hopefully they might fast track Pistorius as he considers himself superior in most ways

cottonweaver · Feb 19, 2016

On this question of final recourse to the chief Justice, I asked the same in the last thread and Belgarion posted this helpful reply which makes sense to me:

by Belgarion : As far as I can see if leave to appeal is refused the possibility of direct appeal to Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng to ask him to reconsider has only ever been mentioned by the defence lawyer Llewelyn Curlewis.

There appears to be no written authority for such a course of action either in the rules of the ConCourt or the Constitution.

I can understand Government Minister involvement such as during Pistorius’ release on licence but for the head of an appeal organisation to be able to singularly overrule a collective judicial decision of that organisation should he be asked to do so by the aggrieved party seems very undemocratic. Indeed it could open up the Chief Justice to accusations of bribery and corruption.

A number of legal commentators have remarked on Pistorius’ chances at the ConCourt but only one seems to have mentioned the direct appeal.

So I would suggest logically an approach to the Chief Justice is not permissible and that Llewelyn Curlewis was probably incorrect on this occasion (he has never mentioned it since)

This being SA I would suggest somewhat cynically that should anyone be ‘persuaded’ to assist Pistorius it would probably be behind closed doors and not by direct approach which would be open to public scrutiny.

I agree that OP will try every trick in the book to delay his inevitable incarceration but IMO I can't see the Chief Justice throwing him a lifeline.
Would be best if the CC rejected this appeal asap so that a Spring sentencing date does not have to be postponed- surely it barely needs a scan read by CC before it gets stamped "Dead Duck" and chucked on the CC reject pile.

Wonder if they are still holding him that cell at Kgosi and did he leave his new mattress etc there?

( I recall on his release a prison official blurted out something along lines of ...we are getting some repairs etc done in anticipation of his return! Naturally that comment can't be verified.)

cottonweaver · Feb 19, 2016

cross posted Belgarion - apols.

Interested Bystander · Feb 19, 2016

I haven’t seen this article posted before. Apologies if I have missed it at any time

“The Pistorius narcissist diagnosis: Experts got it wrong
Read more at http://www.commdiginews.com/sports/...perts-got-it-wrong-20767/#le2wrz39udLjAyZ1.99

The experts who evaluated Oscar Pistorius got it half right:

1. Right – The doctors and therapists who evaluated Pistorius testified this week that the Paralympic athlete was not suffering from any form of mental illness or impairment when he shot and murdered Reeva Steenkamp on the eve of Valentine’s Day 2013 in his South Africa residence.

2. Wrong – Despite labeling Pistorius as highly insecure and depressed, the experts claim there are no clear indications that he is a narcissist with a personality disorder (NPD) or a psychopath/sociopath with deep pathological defects.

This conclusion is troubling and contradictory, because, narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths act abusively, not only because they lack a conscience and are void of empathy and remorse, but because they are deeply insecure, highly fearful of abandonment, and paranoid. When cornered and caught, these pathological types drop the grandiose and entitled front and instead manipulate the consciousness of others by engaging and parading their insecurities to gain pity.”

For Info: The author quotes Dr Martha Stout, a psychologist, who wrote “The Sociopath Next Door”

Here is a short excerpt from her book.

“How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.”

Rings a few bells for me!

JudgeJudi · Feb 19, 2016

Belgarion said:
Do you think so?

There is nothing in the ConCourt Rules or Constitution to allow for this to happen

It would be perverse if the CJ could just arbitrarily overrule a majority decision of the rest of the bench. It would certainly open him up to suspicions of corruption.

This possibility of such a route was mentioned just once in the media and hasnt been mentioned since so my feeling is it is not a viable option.

I believe I've read it more than once but I too don't believe he'll go to the CJ. It would be nothing short of scandalous IMO if he overruled the other 10 ConCourt Judges. I've been through nearly all the ConCourt judgments and I haven't found one so far where they've overturned a criminal judgment of the SCA. However, I don't think OP's going anywhere except to prison where he belongs.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think he'll spend 10 years inside. The SCA judges made it abundantly clear what their views were and I can't see Masipa, or any other HC judge for that matter, reducing the minimum sentence by much at all.

Interested Bystander · Feb 19, 2016

JudgeJudi said:
I believe I've read it more than once but I too don't believe he'll go to the CJ. It would be nothing short of scandalous IMO if he overruled the other 10 ConCourt Judges. I've been through nearly all the ConCourt judgments and I haven't found one so far where they've overturned a criminal judgment of the SCA. However, I don't think OP's going anywhere except to prison where he belongs.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think he'll spend 10 years inside. The SCA judges made it abundantly clear what their views were and I can't see Masipa, or any other HC judge for that matter, reducing the minimum sentence by much at all.

If he gets 10 years, which I think is highly likely (assuming he doesn't somehow manage to dodge the SCA ruling) how much time do you think he will actually serve? I am guessing half the tariff minus the year he has already served. So around 4 years is my guess.

mrjitty · Feb 19, 2016

Interested Bystander said:
If he gets 10 years, which I think is highly likely (assuming he doesn't somehow manage to dodge the SCA ruling) how much time do you think he will actually serve? I am guessing half the tariff minus the year he has already served. So around 4 years is my guess.

I can't remember what the min sentence / parole period were for basic murder?

Was it 15?

I remember speculating he might cop 10, out in 5, minus one served equals 4 years more in jail

Interested Bystander · Feb 19, 2016

mrjitty said:
I can't remember what the min sentence / parole period were for basic murder?

Was it 15?

I remember speculating he might cop 10, out in 5, minus one served equals 4 years more in jail

Yes 15. I should have mentioned that in my post. I calculated 10 years will be the tarriff he is given due to mitigating circumstances and he will serve 5-1. I am sure he will get a reduction due to his disability (and the fact that he is Pistorius - tongue in cheek).

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2016

On what grounds are people speculating that the minimum term of 15 will be reduced to 10? I've read that there needs to be extenuating or exceptional grounds.

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2016

Interested Bystander said:
Yes 15. I should have mentioned that in my post. I calculated 10 years will be the tarriff he is given due to mitigating circumstances. I am sure he will get a reduction due to his disability (and the fact that he is Pistorius - tongue in cheek).

If he's going to jail anyway, he can obviously cope from a physical point of view with life inside, so how does his disability earn him a reduced sentence? Or do you think his disability will be tendered as an excuse for committing murder?

Interested Bystander · Feb 19, 2016

Tortoise said:
If he's going to jail anyway, he can obviously cope from a physical point of view with life inside, so how does his disability earn him a reduced sentence? Or do you think his disability will be tendered as an excuse for committing murder?

I am afraid I am cynical when it comes to OP. He seems to have gotten away lightly already. Only a year for a particularly violent murder and allowed to stay on bail whilst a convicted murderer. This is not the treatment a normal offender would expect to receive. He leads a somewhat charmed life.

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2016

Interested Bystander said:
I am afraid I am cynical when it comes to OP. He seems to have gotten away lightly already. Only a year for a particularly violent murder and allowed to stay on bail whilst a convicted murderer. This is not the treatment a normal offender would expect to receive. He leads a somewhat charmed life.

I can't disagree with any of that. Let's hope it's about to change.

Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #70 *Appeal Verdict*

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Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #70 Appeal Verdict