Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #5

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

kammiemc said:
Can you elaborate on the hallmarks? Cuts on fingers? Plastic bag? I always think of drug OD and other methods for suicide and also would think she would want the carpool off her back and just tell them she'd drive herself in or take a bus. None of this seems obvious to the layperson. But it sounds like you have some insight.

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Honestly some of the methods are too ghastly to talk about even here.

1. Outdoor suicides are very common, far more common that most people think. I don't know the psychology of it. But I've seen far too many.

2. The cut fingers was probably the first unsuccessful attempt in the sequence of events. The blood smears on the seat would have been contact from exiting the car.

3. Using a bag and getting into water would have been a progression to "more certain" methods with the cut fingers not working out as quickly as hoped. I was at a suicide where a woman basically "willed" herself to death/pass out into a small depth of water (outdoors). But the combination of methods (bag, water) as I said is very common.

Many people who commit suicide display an outward shell of complete happiness prior to the event. They're able to function and get through their lives up until the point they are not. I am not suggesting she had a mental illness though it is always possible. The reasons for suicide can be complex, never found, and not understandable by those close to the subject.

People are excited about this case because it is a mystery, and she was missing. But many suicides leave equally as complex crime scenes (how did the gun get 40ft from the body?) but don't make the news because the person didn't go missing in circumstances that led to a large media interest.

stryker57 · Mar 22, 2016

ANZAC said:
1. Any plastic bag will work. Not everyone will rip the bag off. (You can also secure it with rope/twine etc) In a previous post I mentioned a suicide with multiple stab wounds to the torso. I doubt I could stab myself once, but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it. Don't underestimate state of mind.

2. Food out for dinner, adopted car etc. The dark thoughts that lead to suicide leave a path that sometimes make no sense. I've seen people who paid their rent, made plans with their family, had all manner of positive things continuing in their lives, then take their lives. Also seen people who bought food and had a meal RIGHT BEFORE they killed themselves. Why eat if you're going to kill yourself? Answer: no one knows, it doesn't make sense to the still living.

I respectfully see where you are coming from. If it ever becomes definitive that this was suicide so be it.

As thin as the material of the plastic bag was it wouldn't matter if it was secured around the neck. It would take little effort to rip open the bag.

So many theories can be made for suicide, or homicide at this point. You are entitled to your own opinion, and that's acceptable. I am just stating my case. I am sticking to my personal beliefs until substantial evidence proves otherwise.

stryker57 said:
Looking at other avenues. Currently not satisfied with MLT PD.

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ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

stryker57 said:
Also has LE indicated the blood was hers, not yet. Maybe there is blood from multiple sources....

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My recollection is they said in the news, the blood was hers, from self inflicted wounds to the hands. But I could be remembering wrong.

I'll be honest, before she was found, the minute I heard about the text message, I thought "suicide". (perhaps my own bias!)

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

stryker57 said:
I respectfully see where you are coming from. If it ever becomes definitive that this was suicide so be it.

As thin as the material of the plastic bag was it wouldn't matter if it was secured around the neck. It would take little effort to rip open the bag.

Again, with respect, you're thinking like you or I would think. People committing suicide can be very determined. It also may be the bag was another mechanism and wasn't effective, and that she drowned.

Did they say whether she had water in her lungs?

I'd also have to think about the bag, and then being underwater. I don't know the water depth but I could see the combination being lethal (bag on your head, then going in the water).

So many theories can be made for suicide, or homicide at this point. You are entitled to your own opinion, and that's acceptable. I am just stating my case. I am sticking to my personal beliefs until substantial evidence proves otherwise.

Indeed. Remember also they'll be giving any evidence to the ME as well to inform their determination further. The ME doesn't just accept this as given, there is another layer of critical thought and squaring with the medical evidence.

Mentalheadslap · Mar 22, 2016

ANZAC said:
My recollection is they said in the news, the blood was hers, from self inflicted wounds to the hands. But I could be remembering wrong.

I'll be honest, before she was found, the minute I heard about the text message, I thought "suicide". (perhaps my own bias!)

With the understanding that your opinion is suicide, is there any information that would make you discount this as homicide?

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

WhisperWorm said:
If you read the rest of my post, I say exactly that. The initial report would have been based on the earlier, more limited information.

IIRC you said they'd have more information when they get the device. I was saying that they essentially have all they need from the warrant to the wireless carrier. (perhaps I am splitting hairs)

(edit) If that wasn't you saying that, I apologize. Not keeping track of who said what.

The information is in fact the same information, they just only look at what they need to, to find the person under exigent circumstances. Then all of that is essentially flushed once they know they need a warrant, and then they ask for it again.

The location information is identical in fidelity between both steps. (and in some cases can be more accurate in the exigent cases, about which I can say no more)

So this is not about having the device, not having the device, triangulation or GPS; it is just really about what information they needed and when, and what circumstances they acquired the information under.

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

Mentalheadslap said:
With the understanding that your opinion is suicide, is there any information that would make you discount this as homicide?

No evidence (disclosed) of another person (DNA, blood, trace evidence), no eyewitness of another person involved. No obvious motive. (let's put the missing wallet on hold...!) No evidence of violence (eg strangulation, stabbing, beating).

Now, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but usually there is at least "one thing" that sticks out on homicides, that points in that direction.

But I could describe another 20 death scenes with as equally "complex" evidence that were determined to be suicides after some analysis.

Yvettea · Mar 22, 2016

stryker57 said:
Also has LE indicated the blood was hers, not yet. Maybe there is blood from multiple sources....

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ANZAC said:
My recollection is they said in the news, the blood was hers, from self inflicted wounds to the hands. But I could be remembering wrong.

I'll be honest, before she was found, the minute I heard about the text message, I thought "suicide". (perhaps my own bias!)

News reports have not said who's blood is in cheryl's car.

lisette · Mar 22, 2016

I have no idea if CD's death was homicide or suicide, but I don't think LE should be so quickly derided. I think they must have reasons to think that it was probably not homicide. Even though there are some "bad seed" police, most of them are concerned with doing their jobs the best that they can. They knew from early on that there were some "sensitive" elements to this case. I have heard of suicide using a plastic bag...Wondering if the bag can be traced to its source and the trail led back to CD's house. (Like the garbage bags in Casey Anthony case.) Also wondering if CD purposefully cut herself so that she could smear blood in the car, misleading LE into thinking she was murdered. Maybe for insurance money, possible thinking that family wouldn't get the money if it was suicide...Many people think that, even though many policies only restrict that to the first 2 years. Don't mean to sound insensitive...My father committed suicide and I know how hard that is to believe and accept, but it does happen for many different reasons. He had Parkinson's but never gave any indication that he was even considering such a step. Perhaps CD used the bag until she became unconscious and fell into the water. Then the bag loosened enough for water to be inhaled. Even though she never regained consciousness, she was still breathing at that point. Again, I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do think it is a possibility, and LE must have reasons for saying that there was no "homicidal violence." JMO

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

Han said:
News reports have not said who's blood is in cheryl's car.

OK, I double checked the news reports, and yes, they haven't said. So I'm definitely assuming there.
Sorry about that.

La Louve · Mar 22, 2016

ANZAC said:
IIRC you said they'd have more information when they get the device. I was saying that they essentially have all they need from the warrant to the wireless carrier. (perhaps I am splitting hairs)

The information is in fact the same information, they just only look at what they need to, to find the person under exigent circumstances. Then all of that is essentially flushed once they know they need a warrant, and then they ask for it again.

The location information is identical in fidelity between both steps. (and in some cases can be more accurate in the exigent cases, about which I can say no more)

So this is not about having the device, not having the device, triangulation or GPS; it is just really about what information they needed and when, and what circumstances they acquired the information under.

[Response below is filtered through 20 years as a telecom paralegal responding to call data requests from LE.]

BBM IME This would require that LE asked for telecom data in an emergency request, before they had a search warrant. Not every LEO does that.

In an emergency request, I would normally speak to the detective by phone after receiving the initial fax/email request. I'd have to have LE complete an affidavit that a search warrant was in the process of being obtained and would be provided as soon as it was available. I never had one instance where LE didn't follow through with the search warrant eventually.

Typically I would pull data for the last 24 -48 hours. I could usually get that turned around from engineering and back to LE in less than an hour. At the same time I made the emergency request, I would request data be pulled for a much longer period of time (whatever date/timeframe was going to be covered by the warrant). The nice thing was I could send the data back to LE in an Excel sheet so the data could be sorted any number of ways. E.g. area codes, specific phone numbers, dates, times, etc. That was often very helpful to them.

dizzychick · Mar 22, 2016

Eileen730 said:
Just a feeling!
Its either someone she knows or a suicide.

I don't see a random attack.
For what?
Whats the motive?

sorry I just don't see it!

blood in her car on passenger side could mean perp was in back seat while other perp drove the car. This was no suicide, like you cant hold your breath till you die, just doesnt happen that way. And this was a horrific personal cruel mean way to kill someone. IMO not done by a stranger but by someone who held anger resentment against her. A tweaker would have driven the car off and at least parted it out. You can get big money for car parts and if you are careful you select the part that doe not have serial numbers. The catalytic converter is worth several hundred alone.

Naw this was personal and the manner of death delay IMO just a stall tactic.

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

La Louve said:
This would require that LE asked for telecom data in an emergency request, before they had a search warrant. Not every LEO does that.

Because she was missing for quite a while, this was likely a first step (in there somewhere)

Also the process has changed somewhat in the last few years with the addition of new resources:
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/News/Arti...s-team-receives-afnorth-commanders-award.aspx

Note that the AFRCC is only involved in exigent situations, NOT criminal investigations. (see: posse comitatus)

In an emergency request, I would normally speak to the detective by phone after receiving the initial fax/email request. I'd have to have LE complete an affidavit that a search warrant was in the process of being obtained and would be provided as soon as it was available. I never had one instance where LE didn't follow through with the search warrant eventually.

(modsnip)

Mollyandme · Mar 22, 2016

ANZAC said:
My recollection is they said in the news, the blood was hers, from self inflicted wounds to the hands. But I could be remembering wrong.

I'll be honest, before she was found, the minute I heard about the text message, I thought "suicide". (perhaps my own bias!)

I have read this thread from the beginning but this is my first post. I have a few questions about your suicide theory that I am interested in your thoughts on. If this was a suicide, wouldn't she have had to take some sort of medication like a benzodiazepine or a combo of things to make her not pull off a flimsy plastic bag? I would think that survival instinct would kick in and without a strong medication to suppress the body's natural instincts, she would have tried to rip that bag off, even if she was in that water. I think it's clear the bag found in this case wasn't the typical exit bag that you often read about online because helium would have been found and there would be tubing into the bag. I don't know if they have the tox reports back yet but I know they were waiting on them. From what I have read, most suicides with plastic bags that did not involve helium or another gas were used in conjunction with medication, is that usually accurate from your experience?

I don't know if this is suicide or not. But I sure as heck hope LE is actively exploring all scenarios. There are cases of people who have been murdered from suffocation due to a plastic bag over their head, so at this point I don't see how that's any less likely than suicide unless there is evidence they are holding back from the family. I just hope that LE thoroughly has looked at all angles and continues to do so. If the family isn't satisfied I hope they can find a good lawyer/PI to help get answers and advocate for them and for Cheryl.

dizzychick · Mar 22, 2016

Mollyandme said:
I have read this thread from the beginning but this is my first post. I have a few questions about your suicide theory that I am interested in your thoughts on. If this was a suicide, wouldn't she have had to take some sort of medication like a benzodiazepine or a combo of things to make her not pull off a flimsy plastic bag? I would think that survival instinct would kick in and without a strong medication to suppress the body's natural instincts, she would have tried to rip that bag off, even if she was in that water. I think it's clear the bag found in this case wasn't the typical exit bag that you often read about online because helium would have been found and there would be tubing into the bag. I don't know if they have the tox reports back yet but I know they were waiting on them. From what I have read, most suicides with plastic bags that did not involve helium or another gas were used in conjunction with medication, is that usually accurate from your experience?

I don't know if this is suicide or not. But I sure as heck hope LE is actively exploring all scenarios. There are cases of people who have been murdered from suffocation due to a plastic bag over their head, so at this point I don't see how that's any less likely than suicide unless there is evidence they are holding back from the family. I just hope that LE thoroughly has looked at all angles and continues to do so. If the family isn't satisfied I hope they can find a good lawyer/PI to help get answers and advocate for them and for Cheryl.

Did you see the movie ' The Life Of David Gale" ?

ANZAC · Mar 22, 2016

Hdk said:
I've only seen blood mentioned as in being found- no indication whether it was droplets, pools, or slight smears on the seat.

One article said smears on seat and inside of front door.

In terms of the types of suicides people commit is there one that women typically do vs men? Why do some choose something like a bag over the head versus overdosing and dying in their sleep? These are mostly just questions stirring around since ANZAC started posting. Sorry it's not
Exactly about the case more of just curiosity

My observation backed up by a small data source is women prefer poisons and drugs (i.e. ingestion of something), men prefer guns, or jumping to their deaths. Obviously this is not absolute. Doubling up (>1 method) is frequent, as are outdoor suicides. Also are quite a few outdoor hangings.

I'm sorry about the deluge of posts, I just wanted to provide some counterbalance to the homicide theories.

Sillybilly · Mar 22, 2016

This post lands at random.

Numerous broken quotes had to be repaired tonight and others posts were removed for back and forth bickering.

Watch your quotes as they are time-consuming to fix and make Mods very cranky.

STOP the bickering. This thread is dedicated to Cheryl ... not to individual attitudes towards other members. If you can't post respectfully at all times, then take a break.

rotary_dial · Mar 22, 2016

With Cheryl being in an IT field, I think it's a safe guess that she would be using a smart phone. Do we know if she used an iPhone or Android? Was she on a GSM (T-Mo/ATT) or CDMA (Verizon) phone?

Did she use Windows or a Linux distribution for her operating system on her home computer?

These may not answer any questions about her demise, but as a tech enthusiast myself, I'd enjoy hearing more in-depth about her tech preferences.

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Native Pride · Mar 22, 2016

Well i'm lost for words my heart continues to go out to CD and her loved ones I'm about 20 pages or more behind so now with the latest info..... if MLT PD is leading us to-believe this is possible a suicide my mind cant stop thinking about the book they mentioned in the beginning found in the car ......Erik stryker has it been revealed what the book was-mentioned ???? is the book possible a BIBLE .....kind wondering as Lent started Wednesday, February 10, 2016.... and Lent, begin the penitential season on Clean Monday, the Monday before Ash Wednesday....if you cant telluswhat the book is i completely understand my thought and prayers to all

Alohaj · Mar 22, 2016

Totally agree... Too many "disappearances" & "suicides"... LE doesn't want to create a panic. The woman found in the Snohomish river in January, CD, Amy Kennelly (all 3 women disappeared on Mondays) and the woman that was attempted to be abducted in Tumwater ( also a Monday, and btw where is a sketch of her attacker?). And as much as I respect LE (my son is one in another state) I do think based on conversations with him, that LE are too quick to explain away some of the deaths (tho he won't agree with me).

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