Bosma Murder Trial 04.13.16 - Day 34

brightii said:

Sorry, but IMO AM and MH did do illegal things, stealing among them, taking drugs, and especially in trying to move the toolbox and bag of drugs related to TB's crime after the fact to assist DM or MS, IMO.

Although neither AM or MH was charged, such activity by both that's now on the public record has been widely discussed here, and not just by me, but many others, IMO. I didn't suggest either murdered TB.

And I do think AM and MH have lots to feel guilty about, and rightly so, IMO. They are/were not totally honest on the stand, IMO, as some more respected, long-standing members here have also expressed. I have no interest in seeing either AM or MH in a better light nor is it up to me to shine one upon them. Their own actions and inaction put them under the glare of scrutiny, and I can't shield them or spare them from the consequences, IMO. They each have their own consciences to reckon with, IMO. I'm good with mine.

All MOO.

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IMO, we have to be extremely careful not to demonize those who were not actually involved in this crime. Yes- no doubt that the whole gang were having a blast getting stoned, having parties and running around with walkie talkies playing lookout for DM's thieving missions. BUT- this trial is about a murder and the accused DM & MS, along with CN sitting in the wings with her own criminal charges. I have absolutely no doubt that the "missions" belonged to DM because the stuff that got stolen ended up in DM's sole and absolute possession.

IMO, doing recreational drugs and playing lookout while your buddy steals things does not mean you're cool with a murder. The talk around stealing a truck was because DM "needed" a truck. Did AM ever think that they were planning on killing the owner? IMO, he wouldn't even think that that was possible and I'm thinking if DM & MS told him "hey, we're going to steal a truck and kill the owner", AM would have either gone to his parents or LE.

Yep- these young men were doing criminal things that if caught, could have resulted in possession or theft charges. What they were willing to do wasn't right- however, they weren't into the full meal deal like DM and MS were. IMO, DM & MS knew what they wanted- they didn't just want to steal a truck, rather, they wanted or "needed" to kill the owner and share the excitement of a total crime. These are the only two guys that should be demonized. The friends confessing to their crimes and lifestyles on the stand are 1000000 x's better than the 2 guys sitting there lying and denying everything. Their participation in drugs and thieving with DM and MS did not enable or create an excuse for DM & MS murdering and incinerating TB. MOO

MB timeline

On the May 13th, neighbor says he has not seen MB since Wednesday May 8th. Although no one answered the door, there was a set of golf clubs at the front door. http://www.yorkregion.com/news-stor...rs-shocked-by-discovery-of-tim-bosma-s-truck/

DM and CN drop off the trailer at MB's on the evening of the May 9th

AM says that CN and MB picked up the dog on the May 11th

After receiving a tip from a neighbour, police find a trailer registered to Millard’s company parked at his mother’s (Madeline B's) home in Kleinburg. Bosma’s black pickup truck is found inside. May 12th.

Kamille said:

Well I, for one, do not believe it. :notgood:

MOO

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When MH was on the witness stand, he mentioned a theft also at a nursery, (and perhaps the same event as the one which AM mentioned), and he remembered the year as being 2009-2010, IIRC. At the time, I believe people (reporters? and perhaps even lawyers?) were getting that incident mixed up with the other would-be incident/theft to get 20' tall trees, which supposedly never ended up happening. When there're too many things to lie about and so many people involved, it's hard to keep them straight!

MsSherlock said:

IMO, we have to be extremely careful not to demonize those who were not actually involved in this crime. Yes- no doubt that the whole gang were having a blast getting stoned, having parties and running around with walkie talkies playing lookout for DM's thieving missions. BUT- this trial is about a murder and the accused DM & MS, along with CN sitting in the wings with her own criminal charges. I have absolutely no doubt that the "missions" belonged to DM because the stuff that got stolen ended up in DM's sole and absolute possession.

IMO, doing recreational drugs and playing lookout while your buddy steals things does not mean you're cool with a murder. The talk around stealing a truck was because DM "needed" a truck. Did AM ever think that they were planning on killing the owner? IMO, he wouldn't even think that that was possible and I'm thinking if DM & MS told him "hey, we're going to steal a truck and kill the owner", AM would have either gone to his parents or LE.

Yep- these young men were doing criminal things that if caught, could have resulted in possession or theft charges. What they were willing to do wasn't right- however, they weren't into the full meal deal like DM and MS were. IMO, DM & MS knew what they wanted- they didn't just want to steal a truck, rather, they wanted or "needed" to kill the owner and share the excitement of a total crime. These are the only two guys that should be demonized. The friends confessing to their crimes and lifestyles on the stand are 1000000 x's better than the 2 guys sitting there lying and denying everything. Their participation in drugs and thieving with DM and MS did not enable or create an excuse for DM & MS murdering and incinerating TB. MOO

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I wonder if it is a matter of, 'there, but for the sake of MS, go they'

I'm all for devil's advocacy, but I just don't think you end up in the inner circle of a sociopath with three bodies behind him, running theft "missions" and being evasive on the stand out of sheer bad luck. DM's people were his people for a reason, and even if it's down to lacking any strength of character or motivation in life, they still don't deserve my respect.

In my opinion, all three (SS, AM and MH) are being evasive or outright lying about what they knew and when they knew it, and they all played a part in attempting to prevent DM from being caught for his crimes.

I won't call them names (aside from the occasional "doofus" ) or imply they were in on the kill, and I get that they're someone's sons, but as I said--it doesn't mean they deserve my respect.

ArianeEmory said:

I'm all for devil's advocacy, but I just don't think you end up in the inner circle of a sociopath with three bodies behind him, running theft "missions" and being evasive on the stand out of sheer bad luck. DM's people were his people for a reason, and even if it's down to lacking any strength of character or motivation in life, they still don't deserve my respect.

In my opinion, all three (SS, AM and MH) are being evasive or outright lying about what they knew and when they knew it, and they all played a part in attempting to prevent DM from being caught for his crimes.

I won't call them names (aside from the occasional "doofus" ) or imply they were in on the kill, and I get that they're someone's sons, but as I said--it doesn't mean they deserve my respect.

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I don't think AM or MH will face any charges because they have cooperated. SS OTOH...well, the investigation into the hangar thefts is ongoing. I think there is still a chance for SS to get stung. His involvement in the thefts, from removing the GPS tracker off the Bobcat to stripping TD's truck, were necessary in DM's theft operation. He was a critical part of the operation. I think trouble is still brewing for him.

And I see I've lost track of Hagerman's first name. Heh. He's not another Andrew, is he? (Editing my post with correct initials.)

ArianeEmory said:

And I see I've lost track of Hagerman's first name. Heh. He's not another Andrew, is he? (Editing my post with correct initials.)

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It's Matt

ArianeEmory said:

And I see I've lost track of Hagerman's first name. Heh. He's not another Andrew, is he? (Editing my post with correct initials.)

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Nono, it's me! Matt Hagerman = MH

MsSherlock said:

IMO, we have to be extremely careful not to demonize those who were not actually involved in this crime. Yes- no doubt that the whole gang were having a blast getting stoned, having parties and running around with walkie talkies playing lookout for DM's thieving missions. BUT- this trial is about a murder and the accused DM & MS, along with CN sitting in the wings with her own criminal charges. I have absolutely no doubt that the "missions" belonged to DM because the stuff that got stolen ended up in DM's sole and absolute possession.

IMO, doing recreational drugs and playing lookout while your buddy steals things does not mean you're cool with a murder. The talk around stealing a truck was because DM "needed" a truck. Did AM ever think that they were planning on killing the owner? IMO, he wouldn't even think that that was possible and I'm thinking if DM & MS told him "hey, we're going to steal a truck and kill the owner", AM would have either gone to his parents or LE.

Yep- these young men were doing criminal things that if caught, could have resulted in possession or theft charges. What they were willing to do wasn't right- however, they weren't into the full meal deal like DM and MS were. IMO, DM & MS knew what they wanted- they didn't just want to steal a truck, rather, they wanted or "needed" to kill the owner and share the excitement of a total crime. These are the only two guys that should be demonized. The friends confessing to their crimes and lifestyles on the stand are 1000000 x's better than the 2 guys sitting there lying and denying everything. Their participation in drugs and thieving with DM and MS did not enable or create an excuse for DM & MS murdering and incinerating TB. MOO

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This ^ right here. :clap: Thank you.

andreww said:

I think it was a timing thing. He needed the truck soon and stealing it at night meant breaking a window, ignition, and steering lock. I still maintain the plan was to force TB out of his own truck but he fought back and was killed unexpectedly. But the idea was to get a pristine truck with keys.

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I too think this is what happened.

Kamille said:

No it is not. The red Cadillac was put up on kijiji for sale by SS during the hangar liquidation. Along with the powder blue Oldsmobile. So it appears that DM actually owned those cars.

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Yes .... and they were probably from Grandfather Carl's car collection .... I wonder why they even mention the "red caddy" at the trial .... seems completely irrelevant to me .

.

leafs_fan93 said:

I too think this is what happened.

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me three

I find it interesting that DM was hanging out with a pack of kiddies, 5 years younger or more. That's 19% younger. And he was supplying them all with unlimited weed.

And no doubt DM partook: the pot made him think: ideas, inventions, plans, missions. When he smoked up, he could talk about any kind of craziness and see how people reacted. Most blew him off, but Smich was into DM's visions.

Pot is both depressant (mellows you out) and stimulant (caffeine, cocaine are stimulants) and it can be hallucinogenic. It's got a little bit of everything for everybody. People talk about strains that give you a strong "body stone": relief of body pain, relaxation, even temporary inability to move. On the other hand, other people select a strain for the "cerebral high": it makes your thoughts quicken and flow and become beautiful then brilliant. This is why I think DM was attracted to pot (and as the Johnny Appleseed of pot to his youngsters, sought out converts.)

All this talk of missions and inventions and a car that doesn't run on gas and ideas and the perfect crime: too much pot smoking, IMO.

Inspector_North said:

Sort of like the satchel early on in the trial? Did we ever figure that one out?

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My thoughts surrounding the satchel, if I recall correctly it was Dungey bringing up the satchel, I'd think trying to suggest DM had the gun, not MS

SnooperDuper said:

Nono, it's me! Matt Hagerman = MH

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Gaslighting me, eh?

It really blows my mind to think of how many lives this situation has affected, outside of the obvious TB and his family and network, and the 2 accuseds and their families. To think that AJ hasn't spoken with his daughter's husband and father of his grandkids, SS, since just after this event; and MH and AM who were very good friends, haven't spoken since just after this event; MB hadn't felt she could face going back to her own home after TB's truck being found in her driveway (I'm not sure if she has been home since, the news hasn't been following her), and has this unwanted notoriety had any effect on her home decor business; I wonder how Robert Burns' testimony has affected any familial relationships? How the parental and other family relationships have fared for the parents and families of MH, AM, SS, not to mention perhaps future employment prospects? Pedo, who now has a new master; the girlfriends' friends, families, employers, teachers, and potentially their future spouses; the business reputations of LW1 and LW2, and I'm sure the list goes on and on.

Even if, for the sake of argument at this point, DM were not guilty, to see him smiling at jurors/court audience, laughing with his lawyer, waving to old buds, smirking when he doesn't care for the testimony or opposing lawyer's line of questioning, staring down witnesses, looking his co-accused up and down regularly, and exuding such self confidence in himself to the point of being perceived as cocky, goes so much against the grain, it is as if it all goes right over his head as to how his actions have contributed to all of these changes in other peoples' lives.

ETA.. just had to also add the effect to the V family, which is undoubtedly substantial... was he owed money? was he owed past wages? at the mercy of Revenue Canada since he seems to have no documentation to show any earnings or revenues, or expenses for that matter (lease of the truck?) over the past several years... lost his vehicle, likely his residence, his livelihood and that of his family members who were also 'employed' by DM also probably unable to qualify for EI since he doesn't appear to have been treated as employee status?

Inspector_North said:

MB timeline

On the May 13th, neighbor says he has not seen MB since Wednesday May 8th. Although no one answered the door, there was a set of golf clubs at the front door. http://www.yorkregion.com/news-stor...rs-shocked-by-discovery-of-tim-bosma-s-truck/

DM and CN drop off the trailer at MB's on the evening of the May 9th

AM says that CN and MB picked up the dog on the May 11th

After receiving a tip from a neighbour, police find a trailer registered to Millard’s company parked at his mother’s (Madeline B's) home in Kleinburg. Bosma’s black pickup truck is found inside. May 12th.

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Not saying you are wrong .... but the other day I noticed the same discrepancy as you just pointed out ..... so I spent an hour or so going thru a bunch of articles and determined (to me anyway) that MB came into the picture after the trailer was found

Could be reporter errors or tweet errors that have mixed up the dates.

Even back 3 years ago there was a major discrepancy about when the trailer even arrived at MB's driveway ..... the first neighbor said it was when the Leafs hockey game was playing , the second neighbor said it showed up the following day , and at the trial it turns out the second neighbor was right.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but for some reason a particular detail stands out in my mind. MH said he carried one of the items to the bottom of the stairs when they did the hasty drop, and AM carried the other. He says they each independently carried an item. However, we now hear from AM that MH alone put the items at the bottom of the stairs.

This just seems like one of those details that one wouldn't forget. So why the discrepancy? Also, iirc MH volunteered the detail regarding the way they each carried something down there, but AM was asked who put the items in the stairwell and his answer is MH.

All MOO. Thoughts?

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I thought it was determined it was the night of the hockey game. Someone here said that was wrong because the Leafs weren't in the playoffs, but then everyone else proved that they were and there was a game that night. May 9th, 2013.

http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/calendar.htm?date=5/1/2013