Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

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Does anyone want to me to do the write up on all three girls, based upon my knowledge of the case, and the known facts, plus about what is not known as fact I'll use "what's most likely, unlikely but probable and unlikely." I Don't want to waste time writing them if no one cares. By doing it, I hope to create discussion about certain aspects of each case.
 
Does anyone want to me to do the write up on all three girls, based upon my knowledge of the case, and the known facts, plus about what is not known as fact I'll use "what's most likely, unlikely but probable and unlikely." I Don't want to waste time writing them if no one cares. By doing it, I hope to create discussion about certain aspects of each case.
Yes please, I asked if you could provide that some posts ago, you said you were going to do it a number of pages back..
 
Based on the Commodore fibres, someone is driving a newish 1 year old Commodore. A hospitality student would be doing well to afford a 1 year old VS Commodore.
But maybe the fibres are a decoy or someone was selling drugs? Without knowing the crime scene it is hard to gain insight into what the fibres associate with.

Maybe police discovered fibres under the girls fingernails?
 
So if we assume HYPOTHETICALLY based on a couple of unsubstantiated news paper articles that Jane was raped and had been stabbed/ or had her throat cut but not stabbed anywhere other than the neck, then I would assume after cutting the throats and stabbing the victim it would take a few hours for the blood to start drying up quickly around the body and clotting in areas to stop a constant flow of blood leaching everywhere. So if the victims were stabbed/ or had their throats cut in an area away from the dump site it would take a few hours before the bodies would be in a situation where they could be moved without leaving a huge mess. If this is the case and we know the CSK abducted both girls around midnight and if he had taken them to a local kill location eg. Karrakatta Cemetary/ or the golf course then he probably would have moved the bodies a few hours later, not immediately because of the mess/blood, but staying in this location could lead to capture, especially loittering in these areas any longer than necessary. So he would have had to take them to his home. If he shared the home with family/friends then this is not plausible. If he lived alone then possible, but would leave evidence at the home that would surely lead to a conviction. So killing them away from the home is more likely because tying that evidence to one individual is unlikely in a random public location.

So it almost seems likely he raped and demobilised the victims possibly via headwound/strangulaion, transported them basically dead to the dump site, and finished them off with a brutal throat cutting move, or stabbed them repeatedly around the neck area/ and or possibly body, ensuring their death, and leaving them to bleed out in their locations with shrubs and sticks covering the mess/body.

Karrakatta was a potential witness and there seems to be more articles about the victim being 'left for dead' than there are about the victim being 'released' so can we assume he attempted to kill her (We dont know what the Karrakatta victims injuries were) and she awoken/was not dead and ran to the hospital. Maybe stabbing/slicing the victims throat ensured no witnesses this time around as it was far too risky.

It woud be interesting to know how deep the wounds were, because you would think a small blade would require a large a mount of force, tearing to do the same as a 18cm hunting blade, hence why their may have been a ripper like mutilation around the wounds, from such a small knife being used to ensure deep brutal stab wounds occured
 
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/STRIP...IPLE+KILLER+AFTER+MISSING+IRISH...-a061104395

This article specifically mentions that Jane had been stabbed to death, stripped naked and dumped, we have often assumed raped.

Where did these two articles originally originate from, which news papers? they certainly share alot of information not thought to be known to the public and kept in the secret realms of WAPOL.

There is a copyright on the article.

COPYRIGHT 1997 MGN LTD
No portion of this article can be reproduced without the express written permission from the copyright holder.
Copyright 1997 Gale, Cengage Learning. All rights reserved.
 
Based on the Commodore fibres, someone is driving a newish 1 year old Commodore. A hospitality student would be doing well to afford a 1 year old VS Commodore.
But maybe the fibres are a decoy or someone was selling drugs? Without knowing the crime scene it is hard to gain insight into what the fibres associate with.

Maybe police discovered fibres under the girls fingernails?

The below article states fibers were found on her body.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...w-clues-on-murderers-car-20151204-glfnot.html

I would assume if fibers were found on her body that she was transported unclothed.
 
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/STRIP...IPLE+KILLER+AFTER+MISSING+IRISH...-a061104395

This article specifically mentions that Jane had been stabbed to death, stripped naked and dumped, we have often assumed raped.

Where did these two articles originally originate from, which news papers? they certainly share alot of information not thought to be known to the public and kept in the secret realms of WAPOL.

It's really important for everyone here to understand that often the media get it wrong, particularly early in the case.

One media report claimed one or both of the girls were strangled, another claimed stabbed.

There's nothing more annoying than posters who dig up an articles and say "here, this article says it's true, therefore it is" regarding contentious parts of the case.
 
So if we assume HYPOTHETICALLY based on a couple of unsubstantiated news paper articles that Jane was raped and had been stabbed/ or had her throat cut but not stabbed anywhere other than the neck, then I would assume after cutting the throats and stabbing the victim it would take a few hours for the blood to start drying up quickly around the body and clotting in areas to stop a constant flow of blood leaching everywhere. So if the victims were stabbed/ or had their throats cut in an area away from the dump site it would take a few hours before the bodies would be in a situation where they could be moved without leaving a huge mess. If this is the case and we know the CSK abducted both girls around midnight and if he had taken them to a local kill location eg. Karrakatta Cemetary/ or the golf course then he probably would have moved the bodies a few hours later, not immediately because of the mess/blood, but staying in this location could lead to capture, especially loittering in these areas any longer than necessary. So he would have had to take them to his home. If he shared the home with family/friends then this is not plausible. If he lived alone then possible, but would leave evidence at the home that would surely lead to a conviction. So killing them away from the home is more likely because tying that evidence to one individual is unlikely in a random public location.
I strongly lean towards public location (but has anyone been able to confirm if Judo owned his house in 1996?). There would be a fair bit of blood so my guess is plastic lined boot (which doesn't tie in with Commodore fibres). Strangulation and then a final throat cut at the dump site is possible but Macro seem to be sure the girls were killed elsewhere (I assume this is because lack of blood at dump site matching the suspected wound).


So it almost seems likely he raped and demobilised the victims possibly via headwound/strangulaion, transported them basically dead to the dump site, and finished them off with a brutal throat cutting move, or stabbed them repeatedly around the neck area/ and or possibly body, ensuring their death, and leaving them to bleed out in their locations with shrubs and sticks covering the mess/body.
I don't believe there is any repeated stabbing around the necks or anywhere else. Going on evidence the CSK is highly organised so a neat throat cut would be most likely.

Karrakatta was a potential witness and there seems to be more articles about the victim being 'left for dead' than there are about the victim being 'released' so can we assume he attempted to kill her (We dont know what the Karrakatta victims injuries were) and she awoken/was not dead and ran to the hospital. Maybe stabbing/slicing the victims throat ensured no witnesses this time around as it was far too risky.
Whilst we don't know, it's hard to believe the victim escaped. She was blindfolded and tied up. I strongly lean towards her being let go.

It woud be interesting to know how deep the wounds were, because you would think a small blade would require a large a mount of force, tearing to do the same as a 18cm hunting blade, hence why their may have been a ripper like mutilation around the wounds, from such a small knife being used to ensure deep brutal stab wounds occurred
If you read DM's book (which I believe has the correct version), the police aren't 100% sure the throats were cut. This would be because there were no cut marks on the bones meaning the cuts weren't that deep. Whether that means big, large, sharp or super sharp is hard to determine.
 
GreenDevil,

I've paid particular attention to your posts throughout these threads because of your objectivity, reason and logic. Speaking for myself, and I'm sure many others, I would definitely refer back to any sort of write up you create as a grounded and useful tool in these matters.

I think there are far too many irrational theories floating around on this thread at the moment, and I would love to have something to base discussions off.

P
 
Not to my knowledge. Over the years, mafia members have broken the code of silence and been provided protection through the Witness Protection Program.

Gang members and inmates may operate under their own criminal codes, keeping quiet or occasionally taking the blame for crimes they did not commit. I guess this is a very watered down version of omertà (mixed with fear of retribution).

Great. Recently read a great book called Evil Life on the Australian mafia - the Ndrangheta - that details this concept and the flipside - co-authored by former NSW assistant police commissioner Clive Small (who headed up the task force that caught serial killer Ivan Milat). Essential reading IMHO for Australian crime enthusiasts like the community here - let me know if you want the link. Thanks again for your assistance Sutton.
 
It's really important for everyone here to understand that often the media get it wrong, particularly early in the case.

One media report claimed one or both of the girls were strangled, another claimed stabbed.

There's nothing more annoying than posters who dig up an articles and say "here, this article says it's true, therefore it is" regarding contentious parts of the case.
Yes, these reports are unsubstantiated and can not be taken as fact, but they do exist and also cannot be totally dismissed.

So the Irish news papers claim Strangulation, does anyone know which newspaper and where these two articles I posted earlier stating the victims were naked/ stabbed and raped were published. Sutton, as the original poster of these two articles do you know where they originated from?

Does anyone know for certainty that Ciara Glennon was found FULLY clothed? Or was she found PARTIALLY clothed, or actually naked like Jane Rimmer was?

I wonder if the CSK got rid of his own blood soaked clothing and the victims (Jane Rimmers specifically) clothes at the same time, or if he kept his own clothing and just hid the victims? She was naked so I wonder whether the clothes/ underwear were ever located close by or if she was totally naked, if any item was ever found near by.
 
I strongly lean towards public location (but has anyone been able to confirm if Judo owned his house in 1996?). There would be a fair bit of blood so my guess is plastic lined boot (which doesn't tie in with Commodore fibres). Strangulation and then a final throat cut at the dump site is possible but Macro seem to be sure the girls were killed elsewhere (I assume this is because lack of blood at dump site matching the suspected wound).


I don't believe there is any repeated stabbing around the necks or anywhere else. Going on evidence the CSK is highly organised so a neat throat cut would be most likely.

Whilst we don't know, it's hard to believe the victim escaped. She was blindfolded and tied up. I strongly lean towards her being let go.

If you read DM's book (which I believe has the correct version), the police aren't 100% sure the throats were cut. This would be because there were no cut marks on the bones meaning the cuts weren't that deep. Whether that means big, large, sharp or super sharp is hard to determine.
If the killer was 'highly organised' then we should assume he wouldn't risk cutting the throats and then placing them in the boot. You could never guarantee a plastic lined boot would contain all the blood from someone not only moved into the boot but also moved out of that boot. So if he was highly organised like you suggest it would be logical to kill them another way, and then finish them off in a way where they would not survive at the same location you dump the body. I will repeat this but I highly doubt blood and evidence would be left near a crime scene after the length of time it took to locate the bodies. They were found over a month later in Winter during a wet wild period.

Also there are numerous articles that suggest the Karrakatta victim was 'left for dead'. My interpretation of 'left for dead' is not then allowing the victim to escape, my interpretation and (alot of others would agree) of 'left for dead' is that the Karrakatta victim was left in a way that the CSK assumed she was dead, or would not survive, eg strangled unconscious, or sustained substantial injuries from some form of violence. My take from that would be that she was strangled and that she must have awoken (hypotehtically ofcourse based on the assumed 'left for dead' part ofcourse stated in MANY articles about the rape) However she may have been bludgeoned in a fashion where the CSK left the scene assuming the victim would just die at the scene.

I wonder if he then suspected that leaving a body at the seen reveals the crime scene and also makes it easier for capture, hence chose to not only ensure a victim did not survive, but then also dumped them away from where he raped them (Or killed them).

I wonder which suspects ever came up over Karrakatta, maybe they offer the only substantial lead to find the CSK, maybe the CSK did enough to avoid capture in the later years, but considering he felt the need to change MO after Karrakatta, did he do this because he felt he almost, or left enough evidence to be captured. We do know they got the guys DNA from this rape.
 
If the killer was 'highly organised' then we should assume he wouldn't risk cutting the throats and then placing them in the boot.
I think they're almost mutually exclusive concepts but if anything it lends itself slightly towards throats cut and plastic lined boot.

His choice of killing may have nothing to do with practicality and organisation but if my hunch is correct in that the CSK is primarily a rapist and kills to avoid detection then he would have considered in depth when, where and how he would kill them, and the variables he would have considered were probably a) what he felt comfortable doing b) mess c) sound created d) certainty they are dead etc

I think he carefully considered it and felt a knife was nice and quick and he could avoid any thrashing around and getting his DNA under fingernails etc, as well as absolutely guaranteeing they were dead, not only in his car in case he was pulled over but after he dumped them.

It's most certain he used plastic lining.


You could never guarantee a plastic lined boot would contain all the blood from someone not only moved into the boot but also moved out of that boot. So if he was highly organised like you suggest it would be logical to kill them another way, and then finish them off in a way where they would not survive at the same location you dump the body. I will repeat this but I highly doubt blood and evidence would be left near a crime scene after the length of time it took to locate the bodies. They were found over a month later in Winter during a wet wild period.
I tend to trust the police on this one in that they have a good reason to believe the girls were killed close to and soon after the abductions. I also lean towards the throats were cut before he transported them to the dump site.

Also there are numerous articles that suggest the Karrakatta victim was 'left for dead'. My interpretation of 'left for dead' is not then allowing the victim to escape, my interpretation and (alot of others would agree) of 'left for dead' is that the Karrakatta victim was left in a way that the CSK assumed she was dead, or would not survive, eg strangled unconscious, or sustained substantial injuries from some form of violence. My take from that would be that she was strangled and that she must have awoken (hypotehtically ofcourse based on the assumed 'left for dead' part ofcourse stated in MANY articles about the rape) However she may have been bludgeoned in a fashion where the CSK left the scene assuming the victim would just die at the scene.
The victim ran to the hospital. I doubt she was bludgeoned. Maybe he did strangle her and think she was dead which is why he may have vowed to never make such a rookie mistake again and use a knife.

I wonder which suspects ever came up over Karrakatta,
You'd hope macro have been going back through the files and investigating all those suspects.

We do know they got the guys DNA from this rape.
I don't believe we know. You'd think they have it but given WAPOL's record of losing evidence and their lacklustre attention to sexual assaults, it's feasible they lost it.
 
Great. Recently read a great book called Evil Life on the Australian mafia - the Ndrangheta - that details this concept and the flipside - co-authored by former NSW assistant police commissioner Clive Small (who headed up the task force that caught serial killer Ivan Milat). Essential reading IMHO for Australian crime enthusiasts like the community here - let me know if you want the link. Thanks again for your assistance Sutton.

Sure, send me the link. [emoji846]

...So the Irish news papers claim Strangulation, does anyone know which newspaper and where these two articles I posted earlier stating the victims were naked/ stabbed and raped were published. Sutton, as the original poster of these two articles do you know where they originated from?...
Stripped and then dumped.
The Mirror (London, England)
John Kierans and Frank Thorne
4 April 1997

We'll get Ciara's ripper killer.
The Mirror (London, England)
Neil Leslie
5 April 1997
 
Generalisation: I believe that it's most likely the CSK has stalked the streets of Claremont for a number of years prior to the initial abduction and sexual assault at Karrakatta in 1995. He is a gifted stalker and knows the streets of Claremont like the back of his hand, he knows the vulnerable times for women leaving clubs
He is not answerable to anyone on weekends, as in if he is missing for a period of time of a weekend period no one would notice or think this is out of the ordinary. Which is why I think it's likely he has an ordinary 9-5 weekday job.


SS left the CBV about 2:00AM and then walked down to the phone box on the corner of stirling highway and stirling road. She telephoned for a Taxi at 2:06am, requesting a Taxi to Mosman Park.
Witness accounts place SS on the opposite side of the road to the phone box on Stirling Highway, which was shortly after she made the phone call to Swan Taxis. The Taxi driver stated 2:09am he drove past the
Cnr Stirling Highway and Stirling Road and SS was not there. The witnesses that drove past and saw SS standing on the side of the road stated that they saw headlights behind them approaching the intersection as the lights turned green, they did not see that car come through the intersection. One of the witnesses suggests to go back and check on SS, but they decide not to.

I think it's most likely the driver of that vehicle was the CSK. The reason I believe this is due to the limited amount of time from when SS made the phone call at 2:06am and the Taxi driving past at 2:09am and SS not being there. That leaves only three minutes. I believe it's most likely that the driver of that vehicle stopped, had a small conversation with SS during which he gained her trust and gave off the persona that he was a harmless person. I think it's most likely that he had met SS previously, but in a very limited capacity of which no connection could be made. An example of this is a clerk behind the counter at the MVR. It was enough to gain her confidence in any case. SS accepted a lift and willingly got into the vehicle. The reason I discount a blitz attack in this instance is due to the limited time frame (3 mins), she was standing out in the open and easily visible to witnesses, which would have made a blitz attack "high risk".

Once SS was in the vehicle, it wouldn't have been long before she was threatened and controlled with a weapon. I believe it is most likely that this weapon was a large knife that was large enough to pose a significant threat to SS. SS was then driven to a location within a 5km radius of Claremont CBD, where she was sexually assaulted and murdered.

I think it probable that the location that SS was driven to, was Karrakatta cemetery. The reason I believe this is due to the previous abduction and rape at Karrakatt, I believe it's likely that the CSK knew that this location worked previously and reasoned that it would work again. I also believe that Karrakatta cemetery has the potential to still contain traces/evidence of this attack even 20 years on, a peice of clothing, jewellery, a shoe, handbag, anything is possible and Karrakatta I believe needs to be searched line abreast with metal detectors and ground penetrating radar.

I think it's most likley that SS was murdered at Karrkatta then transported to another dump site/location. This location could be absolutely anywhere and suggesting anywhere that might be a possibilty is nothing but pure speculation. I think it's most likley that SS was murdered then transported as it would be extremely risky to transport a live person in the back of a vehicle. In regards to blood/trace evidence being left in the vehicle, I believe this was of little consequence to the CSK as the CSK could either clean the vehicle afterwards or have lined the vehicle entirely with plastic. I believe it's most likley a plastic lined boot/cargo area was used, as this is easy to dispose of after the body has been dumped and easy to explain to police that he was protecting the vehicle's carpet from paint/chemical spillage. It's also probable, but unlikley that another seperate vehicle was used for the disposal, something like a van or panel van. SS may have been transported to her disposal site the following night, which is probable, but unlikely.
 
Generalisation: I believe that it's most likely the CSK has stalked the streets of Claremont for a number of years prior to the initial abduction and sexual assault at Karrakatta in 1995. He is a gifted stalker and knows the streets of Claremont like the back of his hand, he knows the vulnerable times for women leaving clubs
He is not answerable to anyone on weekends, as in if he is missing for a period of time of a weekend period no one would notice or think this is out of the ordinary. Which is why I think it's likely he has an ordinary 9-5 weekday job.

Thanks GreenDevil, a great write up.

I’ve put this into my own little database and included a couple of extra facts.

1. Sara briefly spoke with the security guard at the bottom of the steps on St Quentin’s Ave.
2. There was a bollard to the side path of BCBC that Sara was believed to have been witnessed leaning on.

Given the time it would have taken for Sara to hang up the phone, make her way across the road and become stationery leaning against the bollard outside BCBC (by the time the young men came past in their Magna), I think it likely that the authentic taxi driver was already turned onto the Highway making his way toward Strlng Rd by the time the mystery vehicle stopped at that location.

I think it’s likely, should that vehicle have turned West onto the Highway in the direction of Sara’s destination, that the CSK vehicle passed the very Taxi traveling to pick her up.

The Taxi driver would have been interviewed within a week or so following the disappearance. What did he see, if anything?
I’ll leave this post with a few snippets I’ve seen on the internet over the past ten years or so. SS’s abduction is the one that perplexes me the most.

Sara’s friend she left at CBV: “She was just tired, not drunk”
Sunday Times: “Don Spiers is adamant his daughter would never get into a car with anyone she didn’t know”
Det. Insp. Paul Ferguson HEAD - MACRO TASK FORCE: “A relatively quiet girl with a close circle of friends who didn’t take unnecessary risk.”
 
This particular incident is the most significant for mine.

The time frame doesn't allow for a stranger to talk SS into getting into the car, as has been said, the time taken to hang up the reciever, walk across the road and be witnessed waiting for her cab could only leave a few minutes at most.
I doubt a blitz attack by a sole operator could be pulled off in that time either.
It appears she just hopped into a car and disappeared.h

The question is, what type of car would someone who's just rung a cab get into within a few minutes, almost without question?
 
This particular incident is the most significant for mine.

The time frame doesn't allow for a stranger to talk SS into getting into the car, as has been said, the time taken to hang up the reciever, walk across the road and be witnessed waiting for her cab could only leave a few minutes at most.
I doubt a blitz attack by a sole operator could be pulled off in that time either.
It appears she just hopped into a car and disappeared.h

The question is, what type of car would someone who's just rung a cab get into within a few minutes, almost without question?

You're right, the time frame is quite short, however I think it's still possible that someone could talk her into the car, it would only take a few seconds. It would need to be tested. I would say it's possible that she got into a car with someone in that time, if she knew them, but that can't be confirmed.

I'd say it's unlikely but possible that she knew the CSK and thats purely trusting the police have conducted extensive checks into her background.
 
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