GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #1

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Sorry for the deviation. I'm thinking back to the police conference where Helen's brother made an appeal.

It did suggest that firstly IS was not standing with the family, or the other way around, most appeals I've seen the nearest and dearest support each other with their presence, and secondly that IS did not want to expose himself to public scrutiny, or that of behavioural analysts.
 
mrazda71 said:
Not knowing much about septic tanks, i've just had a Google (kind of wish I hadn't) but I couldn't picture how the police had searched the 'Septic tank' but that's it and having only read on here and initially Googled 'septic tank' I was only getting tanks with a perforation pipe set up. I was thinking 'how can that be?' But after further Googling - I realise it must've been a septic tank with a cesspool :( and the cesspool bit is where poor Helen (and Boris) were ... it's turned my stomach. I just don't understand.
55db342c646e5a650fac9a74c3bcb19e.jpg
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That makes me wonder why a building with solid floor would be put on top of the cesspool. I'm not scientifically minded.
 
Tortoise said:
That makes me wonder why a building with solid floor would be put on top of the cesspool. I'm not scientifically minded.
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Was there a building with solid floor on top of it? I can't think that there would be because otherwise how would Ian have been able to put them IN there?

I think looking at this diagram, the concrete cutting tools were for the lid of the cesspool, to open up access, not a solid floor.
6ebd6bab09e3bad2100130afa3dc26aa.jpg


I can see why the neighbours and previous owner would refer to it as 'the well' with it being round.
 
It was underneath the garage.

I can't think how IS thought this would never be discovered. Maintenance of the system - or even if he tried to sell the house in the future, or if Helen's will required its sale anyway, a survey could have uncovered what laid within.
 
ZaZara very well put about the slopes and natural drainage. I can't tell from the images what way the land lies. I am wondering if the house could be on the mains while the annexe and swimming pool area drain to the tanks? The annexe above the garage doesn't really sound like much more than a workspace/gamesroom and toilet. I would be very surprised if such a posh house was still relying on Victorian plumbing alone.
 
mrazda71 said:
Not knowing much about septic tanks, i've just had a Google (kind of wish I hadn't) but I couldn't picture how the police had searched the 'Septic tank' but that's it and having only read on here and initially Googled 'septic tank' I was only getting tanks with a perforation pipe set up. I was thinking 'how can that be?' But after further Googling - I realise it must've been a septic tank with a cesspool :( and the cesspool bit is where poor Helen (and Boris) were ... it's turned my stomach. I just don't understand.
55db342c646e5a650fac9a74c3bcb19e.jpg
Click to expand...


Take a look at Wikipedia about 'Cesspit': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesspit

If a cesspit or cesspool has an outlet or overflow that is located lower than the inlet, the system may function for ages without anyone ever having to clean it. Also, this would give the impression that the overflow IS the actual septic tank, as the Police thought when they first searched the premises for Helen.

http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Cyclopedia-Carpentry-Building-1-3/Cesspool-And-Drains.html

Fig-11-Tight-Cesspool.jpg
 
A swimming pool must put massive extra demands on such a system I would have thought. How often do pools need to have the water changed? And another thought, surely chlorine would be a no-no.
 
neteditor said:
ZaZara very well put about the slopes and natural drainage. I can't tell from the images what way the land lies. I am wondering if the house could be on the mains while the annexe and swimming pool area drain to the tanks? The annexe above the garage doesn't really sound like much more than a workspace/gamesroom and toilet. I would be very surprised if such a posh house was still relying on Victorian plumbing alone.
Click to expand...

They may no longer have the Victorian pipes (I hope they do not!) but the placement of the pipes may be the same.
Looking at my own house, if I wanted to reverse the flow of the sewing system, West - East instead of the natural East - West I would have to break up floors and dig deeper than before. Or I would have to dig trenches around the corners of the house ~ better have no corners if you want to keep the water running.

My neighbours at the other side of the road have the cesspool in front of the house, in the front garden. Their cesspool has been connected to the sewage at last, as an overflow. Because that was the easiest way by far.
 
Tortoise said:
A swimming pool must put massive extra demands on such a system I would have thought. How often do pools need to have the water changed? And another thought, surely chlorine would be a no-no.
Click to expand...

I know people who put a swimming pool in without consulting the planning department and there was a bit of a hoohaa at the extra strain the pool would put on the water system, both incoming and outgoing. I've done some outdoor pool maintenance and the chlorine added to the water is actually not very much (nowhere near what your local authority public pool would use) and it's "life" is not long, ie it has to be tested and maintained weekly or the water starts greening pretty rapidly especially if very sunny. The pool I worked with was drained once a year, cleaned then refilled. I'm not sure if every pool would be maintained the same way though.
 
neteditor, do you know from your experience if there is a chance this trial (if he pleads not guilty) might take place at the Old Bailey? I was thinking from the point of view of a non-contaminated jury pool vs local people with knowledge of the case. I don't know how cases get allocated to the OB, I'm presuming it is geographical.
 
Tortoise said:
Sorry for the deviation. I'm thinking back to the police conference where Helen's brother made an appeal.

It did suggest that firstly IS was not standing with the family, or the other way around, most appeals I've seen the nearest and dearest support each other with their presence, and secondly that IS did not want to expose himself to public scrutiny, or that of behavioural analysts.
Click to expand...

I remember thinking, at the time, that Helen's brother had to make the journey down from Northumberland to Royston in order to do the face to face televised appeal , whilst IS, being right on the spot, could only manage to issue a written statement. It was suggested that perhaps IS was not the kind of person who could manage to speak out, but it still seemed odd that he couldnt even sit in on the appeal, as a silent support.

Then, with the dog walk, which started out on the Heath directly opposite the house.
IS posted a comment, after the walk, saying he was sorry he had not got to speak / thank each of them individually and hoped they had enjoyed the walk.
I saw many pics of the walk, there were maybe 20-30 people in total. I puzzled how he could not have managed, on a 2-3 mile walk, to be able to speak to each of them at some point. Then I realised, afterwards, that all he had done was turned up ( a one minute walk across the road from the house ) to see them off. He had not participated. Again, I found this odd, given that he had apparently had the all clear re his health, so couldnt have used that as an excuse.
 
Tortoise said:
It was underneath the garage.

I can't think how IS thought this would never be discovered. Maintenance of the system - or even if he tried to sell the house in the future, or if Helen's will required its sale anyway, a survey could have uncovered what laid within.
Click to expand...


From what I read last night ( far more than I wanted to know ) some of these systems can go for up to 5 years without a maintenance check. Perhaps he was figuring - and I think he would be right - that by that time, there would be nothing of consequence when the system was checked out. Plus, I imagine the maintenance check is just a kind of flushing of the tank, through pipes, so unless any blockages, there would be nothing to see.


ETA ZaZara has explained it all much better than me, above
 
Tortoise said:
neteditor, do you know from your experience if there is a chance this trial (if he pleads not guilty) might take place at the Old Bailey? I was thinking from the point of view of a non-contaminated jury pool vs local people with knowledge of the case. I don't know how cases get allocated to the OB, I'm presuming it is geographical.
Click to expand...


From my localish knowledge of the area I feel that St Albans ( where he will go tomorrow ) is far enough away from Royston that they would be able to find a Jury who have little or no knowledge of the case.
Whilst I expect most people in Royston /Baldock and close surrounding areas will have been very aware, due to the posters and local coverage, I dont think it has been such a huge story that they would have to go to London.
Even in the past few days, when there have been more national newspaper articles with the arrest and then the discovery of Helen and Boris, the news has still not been a headline as much as it might have been at another time, due to Nice and Turkey and the politicians playing musical chairs !

Not that I would mind if they did. I hope this person is given an extremely long long sentence, to rot away in prison.
 
Thanks to everyone, I now know a lot more about the septic tank system. It is just too dreadful to imagine the scenario that took place
 
Tortoise said:
neteditor, do you know from your experience if there is a chance this trial (if he pleads not guilty) might take place at the Old Bailey? I was thinking from the point of view of a non-contaminated jury pool vs local people with knowledge of the case. I don't know how cases get allocated to the OB, I'm presuming it is geographical.
Click to expand...

Serious cases, such as murder trials, are allocated to the High Court (not the County Court where lesser cases are heard). So the nearest High Court sitting would be where I would expect it to be heard. I think the Old Bailey is the High Court for the London area.

Things may have changed in the courts since I was reporting, but I worked in the East Midlands area and the High Court sat at Nottingham, Leicester and Birmingham. IIRC
 
Just looked the floor plan ( thanks Cags ) which I missed yesterday.

I had thought there might be a door on the left side of the property, opening out to the side section of the driveway that leads to the garages.
But there isnt. So, presumably, IS had to use the front door of the property to take the bodies out?
It would still be relatively easy to do I suppose, as all he had to do was put them into his car, then drive round to the garage. No one would think anything if they saw him driving his car into the garage - am thinking of any possible observers from the new build house to the left of Helen's house , which in parts is fairly close to the garage.
 
Alyce said:
I remember thinking, at the time, that Helen's brother had to make the journey down from Northumberland to Royston in order to do the face to face televised appeal , whilst IS, being right on the spot, could only manage to issue a written statement. It was suggested that perhaps IS was not the kind of person who could manage to speak out, but it still seemed odd that he couldnt even sit in on the appeal, as a silent support.

Then, with the dog walk, which started out on the Heath directly opposite the house.
IS posted a comment, after the walk, saying he was sorry he had not got to speak / thank each of them individually and hoped they had enjoyed the walk.
I saw many pics of the walk, there were maybe 20-30 people in total. I puzzled how he could not have managed, on a 2-3 mile walk, to be able to speak to each of them at some point. Then I realised, afterwards, that all he had done was turned up ( a one minute walk across the road from the house ) to see them off. He had not participated. Again, I found this odd, given that he had apparently had the all clear re his health, so couldnt have used that as an excuse.
Click to expand...

Yes, it felt to me like the parent stepping in to perform a duty that the child wouldn't. They must have wondered why.
 
Alyce said:
Just looked the floor plan ( thanks Cags ) which I missed yesterday.

I had thought there might be a door on the left side of the property, opening out to the side section of the driveway that leads to the garages.
But there isnt. So, presumably, IS had to use the front door of the property to take the bodies out?
It would still be relatively easy to do I suppose, as all he had to do was put them into his car, then drive round to the garage. No one would think anything if they saw him driving his car into the garage - am thinking of any possible observers from the new build house to the left of Helen's house , which in parts is fairly close to the garage.
Click to expand...
Front door? Is there not a back door? Access from the sun room or to the pool? Also, we don't know that he allegedly killed either of them IN the house, could have happened in the grounds, the garage itself or (I can hardly bear to think it) but either one of them could've been alive when he put them in the cesspool :(
 
I'm wondering if there were any other witnesses in the garden who were there to see her late wife's demise?
 
mrazda71 said:
Front door? Is there not a back door? Access from the sun room or to the pool? Also, we don't know that he allegedly killed either of them IN the house, could have happened in the grounds, the garage itself or (I can hardly bear to think it) but either one of them could've been alive when he put them in the cesspool :(
Click to expand...

Yes there will be back exits out to the pool / garden etc but then he would still have to walk across open space carrying a body or the bodies. And even using a large holdall or similar, it could still possibly cause a problem for him, later on, if police talked to neighbours and someone mentioned seeing him carrying a large bag to the garage on the afternoon/evening of the day in question.
But use the front door, load something into the car ( not overlooked by the other houses ) and drive round to the garage. What could be more normal than a car going into the garage.
Although as you say, we dont know, and I expect we never will , exactly what happened and where it took place. Could indeed have been in the garden area or even the garage.
 
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