The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

Sparko96 said:

Hi; lurked here for years. Excited to see an actual investigation on CBS with supportable conclusions. For those who watched the A&E "Truth" program, it was so oddly biased in favor of the Rs--including access to J and B for interviews, do you think CBS could subpeona details and agreements from that documentary to support their own methodology? Should a lawsuit stupidly go forward that is. My knowledge of the case is that there have always been shills bombarding media sites with noise everytime a credible investigation on the Rs is in the news cycle.

Click to expand...

The CBS special was biased also. I'm not saying that they didn't have valid points but every single person on the CBS special had staked a claim for years. Obviously, they weren't objective. As with this case, it's hard to find anyone objective.

Sparko96 said:

Hi; lurked here for years. Excited to see an actual investigation on CBS with supportable conclusions. For those who watched the A&E "Truth" program, it was so oddly biased in favor of the Rs--including access to J and B for interviews, do you think CBS could subpeona details and agreements from that documentary to support their own methodology? Should a lawsuit stupidly go forward that is. My knowledge of the case is that there have always been shills bombarding media sites with noise everytime a credible investigation on the Rs is in the news cycle.

Click to expand...

Bolded by me.

There sure are and always have been! But after the CBS show, there are a lot more people who understand why this case has always smelled and seemed very hinky at best. So the Ramsey team of shills has been surrounded by thousands of new voices saying, "SAY WHAT? Sure looks convincing to me!" and to that, I say, "Welcome to the fold!"

mauidreemn said:

So Jonbener and Burke ate some pineapple in the "breakfast" room. Then went downstairs to find presents. Burke smashed her over the head with a flashlight and then prodded her with train tracks?

Click to expand...

I am actually in the PDI camp. Yes, the children ate pineapple, wandered to unwrap the presents in the basement; but it is PR who took the flashlight to the basement, and I don't know if she accidently or in a rage, hit JBR. or if she threw the flashlight not intending to hit anyone. Perhaps JDI or BDI. PR is the one who has a series of events to be enraged about - bedwetting, children not in bed, children got into the pineapple, children unwrapped the already wrapped presents for the Lake House - all in the middle of the night. If BR was such a violent deviant, then why was JBR not afraid of him (often slept in his room, played with him, etc.)?

Ok here is my transcription of The CBS part two episode.
I will break it up into several posts. Hopefully this helps those who are unable to watch the show or are interested in re-reading it.
Forgive any spelling errors! This took three days to pull together.

CBS documentary part 2
Observations and Quotes
A warning for graphic images and viewer discretion is advised.
A brief synopsis of the first episode is shown narrorated by Jim Clemente.
Jim Clemente is a retired FBI profiler, he is in an expert in child sex crimes, child abductions, and child homicides.
Laura Richards is a former Scotland Yard Criminal Behavioral Analyst. She is trained by the New Scotland Yard and the FBI.
They head up the expert panel and plan to do a complete reinvestigation of the JonBenet Ramsey Case starting right from scratch.
Timeline:
5:52 am- Patsy Ramsey calls 911.
Approximately 5:54am Patsy calls family friends
Approx 5:59am- The first officer arrives on the scene; is handed ransom note


Ransom note (disected in First Episode)
Jim Fitzgerald- Forensic Linguist
Fitzgerald- "From a historical prospective, this is uncharacteristic of any kind of kidnapping letter I've ever seen."


Stan Burke- Statement Analyst
Stan B.- "Out of 370 words (referring to ransom note), 76% is extranious."
Clemente- "This whole thing could have been done in 4 lines."
Stan B.- "They are trying to sale this now. It's a sales job.'
Fitzgerald- "So I would say we have someone an adult, 30 or older. When someone puts a statement in like that
'(referring to ransom note)I do not particularly like you'
it turns out to be a female."
A graph stating the opinions on the ransom note writer:


Linguistic Profile
Writing Ability- High
Language One- English
Age= 30+
Gender- Female


(forget who said this and will later fix this)
"So it's my belief that the Ransom Note was a red herring. The philosophy was kinda laid out to the police department
that day we have to treat them with kid gloves."


News snippet regarding flashlight shown.
Reenactment of 10 yr old boy hitting the skull covered in pigskin and a wig, with a flashlight to show how easily
a 10 yr old could cause the skull damage.


Spitz- "The flashlight fits to perfection."


CNN interview of the Ramsey's replayed as experts discuss their body language.
Interviewer asking Patsy a question, "Are you fully convinced that your daughter was kidnapped?"
Clemente: "shaking her head no and then"
Stan B.: "it's not just important what is said, it can also be just as important if not more so what is NOT said."


The experts are back at the round table discussing the case.
Clemente : "We need to keep an open mind as to whether this is an intential murder or whether there is something else
that was made to LOOK like an intential murder."

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/09/22/former-gov-bill-owens-commends-cbs-in-ramsey-murder-series/

Former Gov. Owens: CBS Ramsey Series ‘Dispelled Theory Of An Outside Intruder’
September 22, 2016 8:38 PM

“You know the show dispelled the theory of an outside intruder using very good analysis.” - BO

Hatfield said:

For what its worth I have a broken window right now that has been broken for about 7 years. LOL

Mine is quite different though and is not broke clean through like theirs was. Mine just has a large crack and I just put clear tape on both sides of it. On top of that it has a double pane glass so only 1 pane is cracked. I probably should fix it though and it has bugged me ever since I noticed it. LOL

The main reason I havent fixed mine is it will be costly because I can tell they will have to totally disassemble the window to get to the glass. I am betting it will be very expensive and its a double window so both sides would probably get a brand new window and sill which I am sure will be 800-1500 dollars for my example.

Click to expand...

O/T - changing out double pane glass is no big deal. Call a glazier and get a price. You will be surprised how easy this job is.

(2)


They begin to discuss the Intruder Theory.
Clemente: "So the intruder theory basically is that Somebody was able to surveil the family and find a time when they
weren't in the house and get into the house and then when everyone else went to sleep they write a ransom letter
and then they took JonBenet, possibly used a stun gun to subdue her and then took her down to the basement, tied her up,
killed her, but still left the ransom note."


Lou Smit video plays. Smit was a homicide detective and died in 2010.
Smit: "The person who killed Jonbenet sexually assaulted JonBenet. He did stun gun her. He did build a specialized
garrote to kill her. Why he did all these things, I don't know. But JonBenet died a very brutal death in the furtherest
corner of the basement of that house."
snippet of Lou Smit showing how a person could get through the basement window is replayed.


Timeline shown again
December 1996- JonBenet Ramsey is murdered.
March 1997- Lou Smit is hired by District Attorney Alex Hunter.


Laura Richards: "So one of the key issues with this case is the theory of an intruder coming through the
basement. That was Lou Smit's theory right?"
James Kolar- Former investigator for Boulder DA
Kolar: "Yes. Lou Smit. He was a Colorado Springs homicide investigator."
Clemente: "And he was hired by?"
Kolar: "By Alex Hunter."
Clemente: "The District Attorney at the time."
Kolar: "He spent about a week looking at the crime scene photos and such and came up with the theory of the..of the
intruder."


Quote by Lou Smit shown: "There is substantial, credible evidence of an intruder and a lack of evidence the the
parents are involved." Lou Smit, 1998.


Laura Richards: "He was a good and respected homicide detective in terms of, he getting results and clear ups"
Kolar: "Absolutely. Absolutely."
Laura: "Because there was no history of abuse, no domestic violence, child abuse in the house, ergo he thought
it must be an intruder."
Clemente: "Yeah why does it have to be only those two things? Parents can be involved in another way other than
murder. It's not one or the other. There's a bunch of shades in between and we have to look at every one of those.
That's the responsibility of an investigator."
Kolar: "And that's something that seemed to escape a lot of the people who thought an intruders were involved."
Clemente: "So why don't we look at the crime scene video?"


Crime scene video shown down staircase.
Clemente: "This is the staircase going down towards the basement."
Laura: "The children played down there and that's the window he's saying somebody came through an intended to go
back out, right?"
Kolar:" Right."
Laura: "see you can see that it doesn't open fully."
Kolar: "There's some type of chase in the ceiling there."
Laura: "You'd have to have your body over in this direction."
Clemente: "Which window was actually broken?"
Kolar: "(pointing at photo of set of three windows) It's the middle one that's open right there."


Picture of open broken window shown.
Clemente: "John did that to get into the house because on a number of occasions he's locked himself out. But it was
clearly before the death of JonBenet."


Timeline shown again
August 1996 John Ramsey breaks basement window
December 1996 JonBenet Ramsey is found murdered


Kolar:" Oh exactly. It was that year. The pane had just never been replaced. The cobweb that was in that
corner there ya go,"
(referring to video of crime scene showing an old cobweb in the lower corner with debris in it)
Clemente: "Oh wow. okay stop. (freeze frame of cobweb in the corner of window) Here you can see all this
dust and debris is already caught in it. It's weathered. It's got materials in it. It's very clear that this
is not a brand new web."
Kolar: "That would not have survived someone going through that window.."
Snippet of Lou Smit opening the window and climbing through.


Kolar: "so look his entire hips fill that window."
Clemente: "ok go back to where he's in the window seal and freeze it please. When he's coming through
if there was a cobweb going across here, he would've knocked it out."
Laura: "And he fills the entire space."
Clemente: "and look where his hand is. His hand is holding the corner there exactly where that spider web was."
Kolar: "I can imagine just the type of maneuvering you would have to make to get through there climbing out.
And what kind of destruction would have taken place with that."
Clemente: "Well we'll try to do that and we'll see what happens."


Laura and Jim go to the Ramsey crime scene staging area that was built.
Laura: "given that so much of their theories are speculative, we think it's so important to test out each hypothesis
to establish whether it's even possible."

(3)
Laura stands above the sets of windows where the broken pane was found. Jim is inside the basement. Laura is
working from an intruder's point of view.
Jim asks how her view is from there with the basement lights ON.
Laura can't see particularly well and states with the window grate in place as well as the greenery growing in the
area, an intruder wouldn't have a good vantage point.
Jim points out it happened at night so he turns off the lights in the basement.
Laura acts out lifting up the wrought iron grate and points out all the foliage would have been disturbed.
Jim asks how tight of a space is it.
Laura says it feels pretty small and that there is probably easier ways of getting in.
The window doesn't open a big amount. "It's a tricky entrance point."- Laura.
Both recognize there is a space to get in and it could be possible.
Laura trying to climb through window without disturbing cobweb and states she has to have some movement there. She drops
in through the window.
Jim notices some cobwebs and debris on floor under window from Laura's entrance through it. Laura points out
that it would also be on her shoes as she's walking through the basement.
Picture of cobweb intact in the crime scene video undisturbed.
Laura states she was being careful not to disturb the cobweb but she's not so sure an intruder would be concerned with
disturbing the cobweb. "Particularly when so many other things were left at the crime scene."-Laura


Jim now tries to show how Lou Smit thought the intruder or intruders attempted to get out of the same window with
the suitcase found underneath the window at the crime scene.
Laura is going to try to get back out of the window without further disturbing whats left of the cobwebs.
Laura climbs through window.
Jim examines the window "You've completely wiped out that whole corner of spiderweb. I mean its just completely gone now.
And look at the disturbances that you've made (outside the window in the debris). This would have been VERY obvious to
the crime scene investigators but they DID find the web here and they didn't find that disturbance."
Laura: "Right. So it makes no sense."


Experts back at round table.
Laura: "So over the last few months we've heard about the theories that this was someone outside of the family. An
intruder coming through the basement who assaulted her sexually."
Clemente: "It says in the autopsy that there was some signs of this. Dr. Spitz you reviewed the autopsy findings and
the injuries and the sequencing. Can you tell us a little bit about that?"
Dr. Werner Spitz Forensic Pathologist
Spitz: "An Autopsy technician brought for me a microscopic slide that was from the genital tract of this young lady,
JonBenet. And I looked at that under the microscope. The amount of damage is almost non-existent. There's a few fibers
of wood in this microscopic slide."
Dr.Henry Lee- Forensic Scientist
Lee: "Really look at that size, it's microscopic."
Spitz: "You probably wouldn't even have seen it with the naked eye."
Clemente: " I think there's two possibilities. One is that that piece of wood was actually inserted there and the other
is that it's secondary transfer."
Lee: "A secondary transfer could be anything even during transfer of the body, because, don't forget the body had been
moved up, then moved quite a few times in different locations. Then the blanket was put on. So many manipulations at the
scene."
Timeline again
1:05 pm- John Ramsey finds JonBenet's body; carries it upstairs.
1:10 pm- Det. Arndt moves Jon Benet's body again.


Kolar: "Well what would account for the blood in her underwear?"
Lee: "Underwear was only spot. Could be from any other transfer. It's really no sexual assault here."
Spitz: "Now this finding is not indicative of a sexual assault."
Laura: "They're looking for the wrong type of person if this was not a sexually motivated crime which we believe
that it was not."


Snippet of news coverage with Santa Bill dancing with a little girl.


Timeline again
1997- Bill McReynold's questioned by Boulder Police
2000- Sex offender Gary Oliva arrested carrying photo of JonBenet.
2006- John Mark Karr arrested in Thailand for murder of JonBenet.


Laura: "Suddenly JonBenet being in the beauty pageant circuit and the pictures that were seen of her made up,
could have you believe that this was a sexually motivated crime. And many people bought into that."
Clemente: "what about the other injuries? The two marks on JonBenet's lower back."
Spitz: "the two marks could have been from a stun gun."
Laura: "The stun gun played a very key part in Lou Smit's theory."
Clemente: "Lou Smit suggested that a stun gun possibly a (unintelligible maybe Air taser?) was used to subdue JonBenet.
We're actually going to do a demonstration with a stun gun to try to determine if it leaves marks that are consistent
with this or not consistent at all."


Kolar introduces a sergeant with his department. SGT. Jay Wilson- Telluride Marshal's Dept.
He has volunteered to be tased.
Clemente states he appreciates Sgt. Wilson being a test subject and reminds him that they have medical personel standing
by in case they are needed.


Sgt. Wilson lays on a table with a blanket on it and a pillow for him to place his head. He lays on his left side.
Clemente: "If the same amount of voltage goes through an adult male or goes through a 45lb. 6 yr old child,
would the effect be magnified on a small person verses that of a large person?"
Spitz: "Sure. Sure. It's magnified."


Kolar is standing behind Wilson who is laying on the table facing away from him.
Kolar states, "So usually in the law enforcement setting we are indicating 'taser taser.."
Kolar sticks the taser into Wilson's lower back on the right side over his shirt. ZAP.
Wilson jerks wildly and jumps off table obviously in pain.
Wilson: "I'm ok."
Clemente: "How does it make you feel?"
Wilson: "uh Adrenaline rush. Hard to stand still right now."
Clemente: "Did you feel subdued at all?"
Wilson: "No. I just wanted to get away from it."
Clemente: "Would you mind if we looked at your back?"
Wilson lays back on the table so that the group can examine the area tasered.
Laura: " Yeah you can see the two marks now quite clearly."
Spitz: "This looks to me like just an irritation."
The marks have a long wide line pattern. not small circles. Comparing them to autopsy photos.
Laura: "It's a lot wider than I thought it would be. So it projects out."
Clemente: "Jay generally how much do you weigh?"
Wilson: "About 215lbs."
Clemente: "Ok 215 pounds so that's almost like 5 times what JonBenet Ramsey weighed. What do you think the experience
would have been like for a 6 year old girl who weighed only 45 pounds?"
Wilson: "I think especially if you were asleep when that happened, you know fear and you know screaming and trying to
get away from it."
Clemente: "The whole theory was that it would subdue her or make her unconscious."
Laura: "It does the actual opposite. It just doesn't make any sense. I mean do we want to try a second round. Depends on
how Jay's feeling. But we've obviously.. that particular one we did over your clothing."

mauidreemn said:

The CBS special was biased also. I'm not saying that they didn't have valid points but every single person on the CBS special had staked a claim for years. Obviously, they weren't objective. As with this case, it's hard to find anyone objective.

Click to expand...

Well the Rs participated in and maybe LW even pitched the idea of the A&E series to try to blunt the effect of a real investigation. Regular folks have never seen much critical analysis on the case before. And this media management and lack of cooperation means that no intruder could have ever been found. The unintentionally funniest part of the A&E special was fingering a Hispanic male in the touch DNA on the undergarments. Imagine that--a hispanic worker in the garment industry! Gosh!

(4)
Jay is has now lifted his shirt and again laying on left side. Back to Kolar.
Kolar: " Taser Taser" ZAP.
Wilson: jumping off table in pain screaming "OW!Oh my God!"
Laura states it was an even more violent reaction.
They are discussing how it made him feel everything and his heart is just finally slowing down. That it made him feel
energized.
Dr. Spitz is examining the area closely. They don't match the crime scene photo of JonBenet's back wound.
Spitz: "If this were done to this kid you would have a scream from this kid that goes through the entire building.
Everybody in that house would have heard it."


News snippet of Mary Lacy clearing the family.


Timeline again
July 9, 2008- Mary Lacy publicly exonerates the Ramsey family.


Quote from letter to the Ramsey's from Mary Lacy
"To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved
in this crime, I am deeply sorry." Mary Lacy Boulder District Attorney 2001-2009.


Clemente: "DNA technology has evolved significantly since 1996. Today trace DNA or what some call touch DNA, can actually
be found in multiple situations and you have to understand what is the significance in any particular case. Since 20
years ago DNA has gone from science where we needed a lot of material in order to find someone's DNA. But now we need only
one or two cells."


Laura:"Significantly there is a foreign DNA profile found in JonBenet's underwear. Due to this many people believe
this DNA profile, one day will match to the killer."


At the expert round table again.


Henry Lee: "The panty, here some foreign DNA was found. But not to any family members.That DNA maybe has no forensic
value. Just have some innocent explanation get here. It's not a true piece of physical evidence to link somebody or
to exonerate somebody. Come to my Institute of Forensic Science Center Laboratory. Should test again for DNA.That can
shed some light on the whole case."


New Haven, CT. The Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science
Clemente- "The DNA that was found on her panties and her underwear tested against 100's of people and it hasn't matched
any of them. What does that tell you about the circumstances of this?"


Lee: "Many times DNA not prove somebody innocent or guilty. Where the DNA was found, how that was transferred, you have to put
all the pieces together like a puzzle. Any reconstruction or scientific examination of the case will have to go through that
rigorous testing."
Clemente: "The flashlight was found in the kitchen, the garrote and the knots, the clothing, all of those things
could be retested today and I believe that more evidence would be found."


Laura Richards, Dr. Henry Lee, and Jim Clemente are in a lab with "sample items like those from crime scene" in brown paper
evidence bags on a table.
All 3 are in lab coats and wearing blue gloves. Dr. Lee is going to demonstrate how they collect evidence and test it.


Flashlight- physical evidence
Spitz: "A blow to the head on the right side, the flashlight fits to perfection."
Lee and Clemente take a flashlight and batteries out of evidence bags.
Clemente is handling the flashlight and putting in the batteries with gloves not on. As he does this he's explaining that
the flashlight found at the Ramsey's didn't have any prints on it.
He's handling the flashlight like a person normally would.
Lee 'collects the flashlight'. Lee scrubs the flashlight with a q-tip to collect potential DNA. He also wiped the batteries
with a Q tip and hands it to a technician to be tested. Lee states that batteries are an excellent surface to collect
fingerprints.
Clemente states no prints were found on the batteries which he states is unusual because once they are put into the flashlight
they are protected. He surmises that it's possible that someone wearing gloves wiped down both the flashlight and batteries
before sitting it on the counter.
Laura says no LE or family claimed the flashlight. Yet a flashlight was given as a present by John Andrew, John's
older son from a previous marriage. The gifted flashlight was described to be similar to the flashlight in evidence.
Lee:" Its so crucial to establish this is from the home or somebody else brought that. We should check DNA not only
outside, also the battery."

I always believed PR hit JB in a fit of rage and the rest was a cover up. I did read Schiller's book. But after seeing the CBS show, I now think it was BR that flew into a rage and JR and PR orchestrated the rest to cover up.

(5)

Garrote- physical evidence
Clemente explains that in the knot, where it is tied up, there may be DNA in there that we can't get access to if the knot
is never untied.
Clemente, bare handed, wraps a cord around a piece of wood to look like the garrote.
Lee then takes garrote and swabs it with a qtip for collection of DNA he also looks under a special magnifying glass
and uses a special type of light to examine the knot for other signs of DNA.
Lee: "If we get the real evidence you can get the DNA from this area, signalling the inner workings of the knot with the
special light.


Underwear physical evidence
Laura hands Dr. Lee some new packages of panties that have never been opened that she bought in multiple different stores.
Dr. Lee slowly opens the packages of underwear and a technician takes specialized photographs of the new panties.
Lee: "The principle of this is to find out the new panty, whether or not can find foreign DNA.What we do we take a
microscope examination look at any indication and body fluid. So this has just come out of the package. Nobody
touched this package?"
Laura: "No."
Dr. Lee uses the special light again to see if he can see any obvious material.
Lee: "Can you see that?"
Clemente and Laura both acknowledge yes.
Lee: "Can you see that two dot?" pointing with the special light at an area on the right side of panty.
Lee: "That could be a blood stain too. DNA found on the panty not necessarily the suspect deposited. Because this
is a new panty we know nobody wear it. So we just collect a sample. If have DNA, then that DNA has to be during
the manufacturing process." Lee is taking samples from several different brand new pairs of panties to
check for DNA.
Clemente: "Certainly if somebody packaged in Thailand and sent it over here, and left their DNA on it, then they had
nothing to do with this crime they weren't ever even in this country."
Lee: "That's a possibility. We will collect all the evidence and then we will analyze. Once we get the results, I'm
going to see you in Colorado maybe answer some of the questions whether or not this transfer DNA can be explained."


Back in Colorado
2 weeks later


In the war room Lee, Clemente and Laura meet back up and Lee has some results to share.
First they discuss the garrote.
Lee:" it shows XY, that's a male. It's you Jim. In addition all these markers."
Lee: "Now we'll look at the flashlight. The battery gave result."
Laura: "And would you have seen this back in 1996 or is this all now about technology advancing?"
Lee: "At that time for some reason they only did 4 markers. But here we did 16 markers."
Clemente: "That's a very strong sample then?"
Lee: "Very strong sample. The DNA in the new technology is sensitive enough. Easily detect.Some of the samples clearly
match one of us or a mixture. And some, for example, the panties did not match any of us because we did not touch.
New never worn before, but had DNA on them. New panties just from the package. Do you remember when we opened it up?
We all wore the gloves. So nobody touched the panty. The panty had DNA. Which indicative, that DNA was left on during
the manufacturing process when a worker handled the panty. That more likely a female because we found a X chromosome.


Clemente: "So a female worker either sewed them together or packaged them and left transfer DNA on there. What the
District Attorney at the time Mary Lacy said was "We do not consider you immediate family, including you, your wife,
Patsy, and your son Burke to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime."
Laura: "She says unexplained DNA on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence. The match of male DNA on two separate items
of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder, makes it clear to us that an unnamed male handled these items."
Clemente:"Dr. Lee isn't it true that DNA can transfer from one garment that's worn on top of another garment. That just
the friction pulling it on, wearing it, moving back and forth could transfer.."


Dr Lee: "There are some studies that even say send a shirt to laundry sometimes can have a transfer come back."
Clemente: "It seems like District Attorney Lacy should not have exonerated anybody based on just transfer DNA."
Dr. Lee: "I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know I only look at the scientific evidence."


Underwear- physical evidence
Dr. Lee: "DNA recovered from the case sample probably should be ignored. The DNA on the garrote is more important.
The note. The pen. If they still have the flashlight it's not too late."
Laura: "We really want to get Boulder Police Department to work with you to reexamine everything."
Clemente: " I think they have to take your recommendations and re-test with newer technology with more reliable DNA
tests, all the evidence that they have. DNA is reliable evidence if you interpret it properly."
Dr. Lee: "We can all look at it, and once we get the result, we should let the evidence speak for itself."


Back to the round table of experts in the War Room
Stan Burke: "From looking at everything we've discussed going back to the very basics, someone has died inside this house.
How did it happen and who is responsible for it?"
Clemente: "When we put it all together is there anybody here that has any opinion about whether or not this was a
staged crime scene?"
Fitzgerald- "It is not a foreign faction that committed this crime."
Clemente- "Alright but what are the circumstances under which people stage crime scenes?"
Laura- "Attention to be focused elsewhere."
Clemente- "Yeah. To push the attention somewhere to re designate what happened as something other than it was or
cover up and try to protect. Protect themselves, protect somebody else."
Fitzgerald- "To me this crime happened between the 4 walls of that home."
Spitz- "Yeah I believe this an inside of the house killing."
Lee- "So I think you can eliminate the outside intruder hypothesis. So more likely it's cover up something.
What to cover up?"


Clemente calls Gretchen Smith a former Boulder Police Officer.
Smith- "Where did you get my name from?"
Clemente- "Do you know James Kolar?"
Smith- "I do. So he's working with you?"
Clemente- "Yes he is."
Smith- "Okay."


Clemente and Kolar greet Smith at her door and they go on back porch to talk.
Smith- "I was hired onto Boulder Police Department in 1990. Just regular patrol. I worked the streets for several years."
(Photo of her in uniform that states she was officer of the year in 1996.)
Clemente- " what did you think about the fear in the community that there's a killer on the loose?"
Smith- "Well, the fear from inside the department was not felt because some people felt they knew who the
murderers were. However, we wanted to make the community feel comfortable. so we would do the extra patrols diligently."

(6)


Time line again-
Dec.26, 1996-JonBenet Ramsey is found murdered.
December 30, 1996- "Police want to let neighbors know that there is no cause for concern." City of Boulder Press Release.


Clemente- " I was going through the press releases the Boulder Police made. They were pretty bold in saying that they
did not believe there was a killer on the loose and that the community was safe."
Smith- "I think there was not a killer on the loose. Or not some random killing roaming the neighborhood looking
for little girls."
Kolar- "There have been no other similar cases in the metro area either. Neither leading up to or after this event."
Smith- "No. Nothing. This is a one of a kind." Agreeing with Kolar.
Kolar- "So that must have been pretty frustrating to see what was reported in the media about a killer being on the
loose."
Smith- "I think the media was led to believe that. There were other voices speaking to the media."
Clemente- "Who was that?"
Smith- "There was the D.A.'s office. Even though that might not have been the attitude of what was actually going on
in the case."
News snippet of Alex Hunter Boulder District Attorney, 1996 press conference
Hunter: "I want to say something to the person or persons who committed this crime.We will see that justice is
served in this case and that you pay for what you did."
Back to Smith...
Smith- "The JonBenet case destroyed moral completely. There was no morale. You know when you're a police officer
you want to work with the District Attorney's office. You should be partners in your job. We weren't at all. The goal
is to find the bad guy, and put him behind bars."
Clemente: "What do you think was the basis behind..."
Smith: "Well..the parents of the child, they had money. The district Attorney's office and some of administration
did not want to hear that an affluent member of the community was guilty of a crime like this. They didn't want
to hear that. I don't think they wanted to solve this crime. And if they had to go down a different path that
might not have been the truth, I think they were willing to do that."


News snippet of Alex Hunter D.A. speaking "We do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges
against anyone who has been investigated at this time."


Timeline again
August 6, 1998- Detective Steve Thomas resigns from Boulder P.D.


News anchor voice over as Steve Thomas walks across a parking lot with media following him. "Police detective Steve
Thomas left the case and left behind a condemning resignation letter. Thomas implied the Ramsey's had intimidated the
D.A.'s office saying quote 'attempts to gather evidence were met with refusals and instead it was suggested we ask
for permission from the Ramsey's first before proceeding."


Laura: "Steve Thomas was certainly determined and committed to find out who killed JonBenet."


Laura and Jim Clemente meet with Steve Thomas and shakes hands.
Steve Thomas- former Boulder Police Co-Lead Investigator- "Pleasure to meet you, Steve Thomas (introducing himself).
This is likely the last time I'm going to talk about the case publicly but I've been told that law enforcement and
very credible and professional people were trying to make a difference and I knew that after this 20 year milestone
this might be the last opportunity to be on the record so I appreciate you having me."


Clemente- "So why don't we just get right down to it."
Thomas- "You bet."
Laura- "So what did your investigation reveal about Patsy's involvement?"
Thomas- " I believe she was the author of that ransom note. We know that was her pad. Her fingerprints were on
that pad. The sharpie pen we located that and ink matched it to the ransom note which bore hand writing characteristics
that some experts said were remarkably similar to Patsy's. If we found that body of evidence in the possession of any
third party, that's pretty damning evidence. But in this case for some reason uh the District Attorney wanted to
create some parallel universe why it wasn't hers. I find it preposterous.."

(7)
Clemente: "Did you feel you were hamstrung from the beginning?"
Thomas- "That's the understatement of the day Jim."
Clemente- "And ok so who was responsible..."
Thomas- "The District Attorney.."
Clemente- "The District Attorney?"
Thomas- "Of course. We never got search warrants for uh phone records, for credit card records, we were forced to
search tens of thousands of home depot receipts by hand.."
Clemente- "The D.A. never gave you any kind of warrants to get credit card records?"
Thomas- "No."
Laura- "And that would just be standard practice?"
Thomas- "Standard. Phone records. The police department engaged me to conduct the first official interviews
with the Ramsey's and I was as was the FBI, furious when we learned that they had been provided copies of police
reports t prepare for a police interview uh just contradictory to everything..."
Clemente- "The whole point of the interview is to get their information from them..."
Thomas- "That's exactly right."
Clemente- "To find out exactly what happened before they're tainted with other information."
Thomas- "That's right. I don't disagree with you. In June of '98, the core team of detectives along with the
FBI agents and the personnel from the D.A.'s office, congregated in a small classroom because we had been suggesting
'we need a grand jury' people had been slamming the doors in our face. We need subpoena power. We need to collect
evidence. And I remember leaning this cinder block wall, as your (directed at Jim Clemente) former colleague Bill
Hagmeyer.."
Clemente- "Used to be my boss yeah."
Thomas continues- "Said, and I think I'm quoting verbatim, 'Mr. District Attorney, no disrespect intended, but a
little girl is moldering in the ground and something needs to be done. Are you going to call a Grand Jury?'
And I'll never forget, Alex Hunter the elected District Attorney response, 'I need to get with my people this is a
political decision.' I leaned back after working this case for 2 years against that cinder block wall and thought to
myself, I can't do this anymore. I won't do this anymore. The next day, the FBI agents who so vital and integral
to this investigation, said 'We can no longer be a part of this.'"


Clemente-"So they did eventually convene a grand jury."
Laura- "They hear from key and significant witnesses and then what happened?"
Thomas- "Well in October of 1999, the District Attorney upon the grand jury concluding had a press conference, and
I, as much as an insider as anybody on this case, was led to believe that the Grand Jury had disbanded without
any further comment or vote. Knowing that all of the persons involved were sworn to a lifetime of grand jury secrecy,
he folded those true bills up, in effect and put them in his pocket, gave that carefully worded press conference. That
fooled me and everybody else and for 14 years nobody had any idea until a Grand Juror stepped forward and disclosed
'hey we voted, we voted to indict.'"


Timeline Again-
October 13, 1999- Hunter announces there is not sufficient evidence to press charges
October 25, 2013- Previously sealed grand jury documents released to the public.


News snippets shown.


Timeline Again-
October 13, 1999- Grand Jury votes for indictment.
Hunter announces there is not sufficient evidence to press charges.


Thomas- "Some cases in particular never leave you. How can you look back at this case now 20 years on and NOT
be angry?
Laura- "Everyone forgot about JonBenet. It became about politics and agendas and creating a smoke screen. Why?"


Thomas- "WELCOME TO THE RAMSEY INVESTIGATION." (hands down the best comment I've read!)


Laura- "If the Grand Jury those who heard all the evidence heard from the witnesses felt that there were grounds
to indict the Ramsey's then Alex Hunter, you know its surprising he decided not to prosecute them."


snippet from press conference given by Alex Hunter D.A.
Hunter- "The Boulder Grand Jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. Yet I
must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the
filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time."


Clemente: "So in light of the fact that we now know that the Grand Jury did sign the two charges for Patsy and two charges
for John, it really puts in a different light the statement that Alex Hunter made in 1999 when the Grand Jury
concluded its proceedings. The way he said it was very misleading. As if THEY did not want to file any charges, but
then later he says I and my task force decided that there's not enough evidence to charge anybody. But he made it sound
like the Grand Jury also agreed with him. Not that he was actually totally contradicting what the Grand Jury did."


John Bennett Ramsey- COUNT IV (a), COUNT VII
Patricia Paugh Ramsey- COUNT VII, COUNT IV (a)


Laura -"Right, I mean the words seem to be very carefully chosen. It was in the public interest to know that
actually the Grand Jury did return and recommend the charges for Patsy and John, but you would never understand that
as we never did at the time."


Clemente is trying to call Alex Hunter. (District Attorney 1973-2001)
After Clemente explains what he is needing (an interview) Hunter and Clemente get disconnected. Clemente states he
doesn't know who ended the call so he tries to call back.
Clemente gets Hunter on phone and apologizes to Hunter for the hangup and blames it on possibly bad service.


Hunter tells Clemente that there is a statute that prohibits him from discussing the evidence. End of phone call.
Hunter told Clemente that "its very hard to discuss the case without getting into Grand Jury information and of course
he can not discuss that."

Heymom said:

Bolded by me.

There sure are and always have been! But after the CBS show, there are a lot more people who understand why this case has always smelled and seemed very hinky at best. So the Ramsey team of shills has been surrounded by thousands of new voices saying, "SAY WHAT? Sure looks convincing to me!" and to that, I say, "Welcome to the fold!"

Click to expand...

And we should never have to hear things like:

A 9 going on 10 year old wouldn't be strong enough to cause the head wound with a flashlight.

An intruder came in the basement window.

A stun gun was used.

Of course we will but - there's just no reason to take that kind of talk seriously.

For those interested, here's reputable information concerning Federal and state definitions of child abuse:

https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/can/defining/

(8)
Press conference snippet-
Alex Hunter "Under no circumstances will I or any of my advisers discuss Grand Jury proceedings today or ever. Unless
ordered by the court."


Clemente and Laura speak to a Boulder Colorado attorney to discuss how these laws are applied.
Lisa Polansky- Colorado Defense Attorney


Laura reads the Grand Jury statement
"So on or bend tween December 25th and December 26th, 1996, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, recklessly, knowingly and
feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably be placed in a situation in which posed a threat of injury to the child's life
or health which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey.
The other count was..
"John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder,
delay, prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such a person, knowing
the person being assisted has committed and suspected of the crime of Murder in The First Degree and Child Abuse
Resulting in Death."


Clemente- " Does that mean they are charging John with assisting Patsy if she did it, and they're charging Patsy with assisting
John if he did it?"
Polansky- "It's legally possible in the state of Colorado for John to be assisting Patsy, or Patsy to be assisting John."
Clemente- "Wouldn't they both then also charged with the underlying crime as proposed to just..."
Polansky- "Yes. Normally if they do an accessory charge which here is generally after the fact, it's usually somebody else.
My opinion would be that there is a third person."
Clemente- "The only third person that's left is Burke Ramsey."
Polansky- "And it's a complicated area. Colorado's minimum age for prosecution is 10 years old. The science behind it of
course would be that the child under 10 is not psychologically able to commit a crime and they use the old common law
term which is infancy which is to say that they can not form the intent. If you look at the brain science, um as we
know the frontal lobe is not fully developed and that's where the executive function occurs. And so it's difficult to
say well a kid clearly made a "decision" to do X,Y,Z. With regard to Burke, he was nine at the time of the crime I don't
know how they would prosecute him because of that floor, that minimum age of 10. Let's just say, you could say, "negligent
Homicide" even if he was, you know prosecuted now, you can't even prosecute him for that because he was not yet 10."


Clemente and Laura watch the videos of Burke Ramsey being interviewed as a kid 2 weeks later in a screening room.
Laura explains he was interviewed by "someone from the Department of Social Services at the "behest of the family" (means
command or strongly worded request). They put the condition on it that it cannot be a Boulder Police officer or
detective."
Shown is a snippet from The Ramsey's book Death of Innocence pg. 105
"We had agreed to allow the interview... We didn't want some inexperienced detective interrogating our son."-Patsy Ramsey


Clemente-"I'm going to be really interested in looking at his behavior."
"I'm a retired FBI profiler an expert in the areas of child sex crimes, child abductions, and child homicides."
Laura- "So this is the interview with Dr. Susan Bernhardt(sp?)"
As a criminal Behavioral Analyst I've reviewed and advised on thousands of cases and I have a Master's in Forensic and (?)
psychology.
Clemente- "Let's look right at the beginning."
~Snippet of interview with Burke~
Dr. "So what did they tell you about why they wanted you to come talk to me?"
Burke- "To see if they can find who ...you know what."
Dr. "Well, let me tell you a couple things Burke, first. My job is partly to get to know you as best as I can...Umm
and make sure that you're okay...cause things are kinda been hard, I imagine."
Dr.- "are you going to school?"
Burke- "No, because we're trying to stay away from the press. My friend said that, after school...there's all these media
people waiting there going (pretends to hold a microphone) 'Hello, Hello,Did you see Burke in class today?' "Um no,
I did not, I think he was absent' 'Oh thanks!'"
Dr. -"So, do you feel like you're pretty safe?"
Burke- "Yeah."
Dr.- "Yeah? Do you ever worry about it?"
Burke- "*shrugs* not really."
Dr.-"No?"
Burke- " I'm usually just playing my Nintendo.*Nervous laugh*"


Clemente- "I haven't seen any indication yet that this child has been through a recent trauma."
Laura- "He seems to have gone into sort of playful mode and the tone of it is completely off."
Clemente- "His sister disappears in the middle of the night, she ends up dead in the basement and he doesn't.."
Laura- "Worry about himself or worry that they may come back for him. I mean that's another thing that normally
plays on a child's mind."
Clemente- "Sure especially somebody that young I mean they're still very vulnerable."
Laura- "He was in the house at the time and doesn't seem to be .."
Clemente- "Concerned at all.."


Back to video
Dr. -" Do you have any secrets, do you think?
Burke- "Um. I probably do.. but I don't really remember them. And if I did remember any, I don't think I'd tell you."
*laughs*
Dr.- "Why not? I'm a good person to tell secrets to."
Burke- "Because they're secrets!"
Dr. "That's true. I was just kidding."


Clemente- "alright well..what's interesting here is a couple of things. Any trained child interview specialist
should know that the most important things are the things that people tell children are secrets.Those are generally
the crimes that are committed against them and the crimes that they witness."
"over the course of my career I've actually attended training and given training to child interview specialists."
"I don't know why she just totally gave up on that."
Laura- "Do you think she might cycle back to it?"
Clemente- "I don't know we'll see."

(9)
Back to video
Dr. "So have things changed at your house a lot?"
Burke- "Um...A lot yeah."
Dr.-"Yeah? what's changed?"
Burke- "You know, the police have it blocked off and stuff."
Dr. -"Well, what about for you and your parents?"
Burke- "You know, my parents are sometimes crying. But...I'm.. I'm basically just going on with my life. You know?"


Laura- "That's uhh an odd turn of phrase to just go on with your life when your sister's been murdered and found
in your house. I'm not sure you can just go on with your life. I mean children are very resilient and they do get on
with things but this is right in the eye of the storm. Everything has just happened. This is life changing this event.
Even for a 9 yr old boy."


Replay of Burke's response..
"I'm just basically going on with my life. You know?"


Dr.- "So what do you think happened?"
Burke- "I know what happened!" *laugh*
Dr. "You mean when she got killed? How do you think that happened?"
Burke- "I think...Well, I ...asked my dad where did they find her body? My Dad said,'I found it down in the
basement' and so.."


Clemente pauses video
Clemente- "alright hold up. So 'I know what happened' when she was killed right? and he said I asked my dad where
did they find the body."
Laura- "you know it's what he's not saying what you would logically expect at that point is asking what happened
to her."


Back to video
Dr.- "So, what do you think happened?"
Burke- "I know what happened!"
Dr. "you mean when she got killed? How do you think that happened?"
Burke- "I think... Well, I asked my dad where did they find her body? and My dad said, 'I found it down in the
basement' and so...I think that someone..took her very quietly and tiptoed down the basement...and then..
maybe took a knife out ... (Burke swings his hand down) you know... something like that."
Dr. - "Do you think that's how she died?"
Burke- "Or maybe a hammer (swings hand again over and down) Hit her in the head, maybe."


Clemente- "You see that? That's a physical demonstration." Replays that part of video.
Laura- "You know its just odd that he's acting it out at all anyway and most children would not kind of future
project this or reenact it at all."
Clemente- "And then on top of it all there's no emotion, no appropriate emotion at all about this happening to his
sister."


Judith Phillips- Ramsey friend 1996
"When Burke was born he was the apple of his parent's eyes. He could do no wrong. He got the full treatment of
gifts and clothes then trips and you name it. But then when JonBenet came along and especially as she got older,
and her destiny was to be in the pageant system, that attention that Burke had switched from him to JonBenet."


Clemente- "And how did he react to that? do you know?"
Judith- "I think he had.. Burke had a bad temper. It's like he had a chip on his shoulder. He had hit JonBenet."
Clemente- "When was that?"
Judith- "Before the murder I would have to say it was probably a year and a half they were playing in the yard and
apparently he hit her with a golf club. Right here.. *points to below the left eye*"
Clemente- "And how did you find out this?"
Judith- "Oh I think I asked Patsy at the time when I was photographing them, what the scar was. She said that
the kids were playing and Burke lost his temper and hit her with a golf club. After the murder I took my daughter
Lindsey and myself because Lindsey wanted to see Burke and they opened the door and escorted me into the living room
and Patsy came in. You know after talking to Patsy for about 10 minutes, I went to get my daughter and there was
Burke and I walked up to him and he said in this terse voice 'Get away from me! Don't touch me! Leave me alone!'
and I put up my arms and said 'OK. I won't touch you.' There was something wrong."


Back to video with Dr.
Dr. "So what did your parents tell you about your sister dying?"
Burke- "I just now, when I got there to the house for the kind of funeral type thing...my dad says, 'JonBenet's in
heaven now' and just kind of burst into tears."
Dr. - "I'll bet. How are you dealing with it now?"
Burke- "I don't know, I kinda forget about it cause I'm just going beep... (video game noises and acting like
he's playing video games)"
Dr. "You're just playing your video games all the time."
Burke still acting like he's playing the game, "Go go go go go."


War room again.
James Kolar- Former Investigator for Boulder D.A.- "Burke not really receiving a lot of attention. The distancing
he seemed to indicate, he might have developed some resentment and some anger maybe perhaps towards his sister. He
never asks Detective Patterson who interviewed him about an hour after JonBenet was found, if his sister had been
found, what happened to her, you know are they gonna get her back..nothing about his sister."
Laura- "Given that JonBenet was in the pageant circuit and obviously that was Patsy's passion. So Patsy's attention
was very focused and taken up with JonBenet and of course I wonder how that would have felt for Burke."
Clemente- "One other connection internal in this family that we haven't discussed. There were reports that Burke had
a history of scatological (preoccupation with excrement or obscenity) problems."
Kolar- "One of the former housekeepers we have mentioned (Linda Hoffman-Pugh) have talked about him smearing
feces on the bathroom wall. And there was a softball size ball of feces found in JonBenet's bed at some point."
(Steve Thomas, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, pg. 35.) And after they sealed off JonBenet's room,
the crime scene technicians went through it, they apparently found feces spread on a box of candy she'd gotten the
day before for Christmas."


Laura- "The media perception or community perception to me that their the perfect family. But once you start to scratch
the surface, you see that that's not the case."
Clemente- "Alright so let's move on to the uh.. Schuler interviews. This is about 18 months after JonBenet died."

(10)
Timeline Again
June 10, 1998 Burke Ramsey interviewed by Det. Schuler in Atlanta, Georgia.


Clemente- "Burke is now 11 1/2 years old and he's being interviewed by Detective Schuler."


Video plays of interview. Burke is slid down in big chair leaned back grinning.
Schuler- "You know it's been a long painful process for you..up to now, hasn't it? With your mom and dad?"
Burke- "Probably."
Schuler- "Why do you think you're here?"
Burke- "You wanna find out who killed my sister."


Clemente- "It's pretty clear that Burke is sort of acting like a smart aleck here. Like I'm smart and I'm proud of
myself. You know he lays back, let's see how the effect changes."


Schuler- "Did you hear mom and dad talking?"
Burke- "I just heard mom like going psycho."
Schuler- "Going psycho?"
Burke- "Yeah, like all like, you know."
Schuler- "Did you go down to see what was going on?"
Burke- "No, just stayed in bed."
Schuler- "So what went through your mind then?"
Burke- "That I thought maybe JonBenet was missing but that's not that likely, so you know, I mean what are the
chances of that happening?"
Sculer- "Is there anything that about that night, if you could remember hearing anything during the night?"
Burke- "I don't remember hearing anything. Because I was sleeping you know. I always sleep real deeply
and I can never hear anything."


Clemente- "When he says really deeply never hear anything, that's over sell. He's trying to convince Schuler
rather than just convey that information. And typically when we see that kind of overselling it's because
someone is deceiving."


Schuler- "What did you do next?"
Burke- "Laid in bed with my eyes closed trying to get to sleep. I was kind of wondering if something bad
happened. Well something bad happened, but what, I was trying to think of what might have happened?"
Schuler- "So you were curious?"
Burke- "Yeah."
Schuler- "When you're curious about something what do you normally do?"
Burke- "Try to find out what the answer is."
Schuler- "Did you do that? After mom came into the room?"
Burke- "No. I figured somebody would probably come in and tell me. Or I would find out later in the day."


Laura- "He knows that something is unfolding. Most children would jump out of bed probably unless their
being told stay where you are. You know you would expect him to be asking and not just be accepting of
when something unusual is unfolding."


Schuler- "Now when you go to bed at night what was your normal routine? I mean would you get a snack
before you went to bed?"
Burke- "Um..I might get a snack. Not usually."
Schuler- "If you got a snack, what would you normally get? Or what would mom let you have?"
Burke- "Pudding or yogurt."
Schuler-"Pudding or yogurt? Some parents let kids have cookies and candy and cereal and fruit and
things like that."
Burke- "Yeah, she'd suggest like fruit."
Schuler- "So what kind of fruits would you typically have at home?"
Burke- "Like pineapple, maybe (He becomes very fidgety)"
Schuler- "Yeah, do you like that?"
Burke-" Yeah."
Schuler- "Okay. Is that your favorite fruit?"
Burke- "Probably." (smiling)
Schuler- "What was JonBenet's favorite snack?"
Burke- "I don't think she had a snack."
Schuler- "What about pineapple, did she like pineapple?"
Burke- "Yeah, she liked pineapple a lot."


Back in the war room
Laura- "So one of the key issues with this case comes back to something that might look quite
innocuous and inconsequential. But it actually tells us a lot about what probably went on."
Clemente- "In JonBenet's small intestine there was a piece of organic material that looks like
pineapple."
Dr. Lee- "I want to know the condition of the pineapple."
Spitz- "You mean the degree of digestion? Yeah did the pathology report indicate what the
pineapple looked like? Or the gastric contents?"
Clemente- "What it says is the proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented
pieces of yellow to light green tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may
represent fragments of pineapple."
Laura- "The remainder of small intestine is unremarkable."
Dr. Lee- "Which means it's way after the meal."
Dr. Spitz- "Yeah they had just been for dinner at the White's that suggests that the meal
had been ingested some time to allow digestion and evacuation from the stomach. "
Clemente- "So, she completely digested her dinner and after that she then ate this pineapple."
Dr. Spitz- "Correct. That's correct. Chances are she ate a modest amount of food let's say,
but she digested it so your talking about hours."

(11)
Timeline Again
Approx 5:30pm- Ramsey's arrive at White family party.
JonBenet eats dinner.
Approx. 8:30pm- Ramsey's leave White family party.
Approx. 10:30pm- Total emptying of stomach approx. 5 hours later.
Approx. 1:30am


Dr. Lee- "So you start linking all those dots it gives us a possible timeline."
Dr. Spitz- "Yes. You approximately know the time that they came back home."


Time line again
Approx. 8:30pm- Ramsey's leave White family party
Approx 9:15pm- Ramsey's return home, JonBenet is asleep.
Approx. 9:20pm- John Ramsey carries sleeping JonBenet to bed.


Kolar- "JonBenet was asleep when they got back."
Laura- "And we know that John Ramsey put her to bed."
Dr. Spitz- "The pineapple was ingested subsequently."
Clemente- "We do know that JonBenet's reportedly favorite dessert was pineapple and milk.
There's a bowl that looks like it's pineapple with milk sitting on the table."
Dr. Lee- "The bowl of pineapple really had quite a few pieces so something interrupted and they
did not finish eating.."


Ramsey House set up
Celemente- "Dr. Spitz do you want to look at the dining room.
Dr. Spitz- "Yeah I would like to see the bowl with the pineapple."
Clemente- "So here we go."
Laura- "So Dr. Spitz this is the original picture of the pineapple."
Clemente- "What we know from the forensics is that both Burke's and Patsy's
fingerprints are on the bowl and Burke's are on the tea cup."


Quote from Perfect Murder/ Perfect Town- Lawrence Schiller. pg. 239
"The CBI had been able to identify two fingerprints found
on a white bowl on the dining room table. One print belonged to Burke
and the other to Patsy."


Clemente- "Patsy had said I think that she could not have prepared this
because this size spoon is actually too big for a bowl like that. So she
would have never done that. Did Burke prepare himself some tea and
pineapple and milk?"
Laura- "There are fingerprints on the bowl and the tea."
Dr. Spitz- "Were JonBenet's fingerprints on any of this?"
Laura- "They were not."
Clemente- "But, it's certainly reasonable to believe that JonBenet may have
snatched one piece."
Dr. Spitz- "Yeah. Directly with her fingers. For um..estimating time of death
that is important."
Clemente- "Isn't it possible that JonBenet came down and saw that Burke was
eating this and took one piece. She didn't touch the bowl, she didn't touch the spoon,
she didn't touch the glass."
Dr. Spitz- "You know I have three grandchildren myself. Kids will do that. They go by
and pick up a piece with their fingers."
Laura- "I'm being a bit cheeky, and they may be running off"
Dr. Spitz- "Swallowing is a voluntary action, you have to want to swallow, so if she was
wanting to swallow, she was alive and conscious."
Clemente- "You think this could have been the tipping point that started the rest of
the cascade of events that happened on the day she died?"
Dr. Spitz- "Could be."


Video of interview with Burke as a child being shown a picture of the bowl of
pineapple.
Interviewer- "Can you tell me what this picture is?"
Burke- "That's the dining room table."
Interviewer- "Can you describe that to me?"
Burke- (leaning in and closely looking at the photo) "It's a bowl of...........
......oh (nervous laugh)...something." (small nervous laugh again)
Interviewer- "Okay.. (continues to hold photo where Burke is leaning over photo, on his knees and
rocking)"
Burke- "Looks like a glass with a tea bag in it."
Interviewer- "And? Does that look like cereal inside there? (pointing to bowl)"
Burke- (long pause) "Nooo... it looks like a little big, one piece right there..for cereal.
Maybe like fruit, but there wouldn't be a spoon in it so...I dunno(nervous laugh)"


Laura- "Such a simple question to ask so why isn't he just saying what it is. He's
evading any answer and is uncomfortable about answering it. It should be just
an insignificant conversation."
Clemente- "He looks like he's about to jump out of the seat and he was leaning all
the way over the picture. It was really weird how he did that. It's a very
dramatic change in behavior. I think he's aware that that piece of pineapple in
JonBenet's stomach actually creates a major problem in terms of the timeline
when and how she was killed."


Back to video of Burke being interviewed.
Interviewer- "Would you ever go downstairs.. downstairs in the basement and play?"
Burke- "Yeah I had a train... electric train down there."
Interviewer- "How about the last year you lived there. Did you play there much?"
Burke- "Um. (long pause)... sort of. "


Back at the Ramsey house construction in warehouse. Kolar and Laura are
standing in the mock train room in basement.


Kolar- "When the Boulder Police Department asked me to investigate the
JonBenet case, I was looking at the stun gun and the abrasion and the autopsy
described them as abrasions vs. burn marks. Even the taser company said these were not
the types of marks that had been left by one of their stun guns. When I asked for the
one to one photos to be done of these with the air taser. And as you've seen the stun gun
marks did not align with the weapon that was being proposed and I thought that was
pretty significant."
Laura- "Right. And these particular wounds, they are on her side."
Kolar- "They were on her lower left back if I recall."


Snippet of photo of autopsy report showing the exact wording relating to the abrasion
"Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg".


Kolar- "And so a sergeant in my office said 'hey I think I might have found something
that could possibly be responsible for these injuries.' He talked about the (?) track
and I asked Boulder P.D. to do some one to one photos with this as well as with the
train tracks. These pins that connect the tracks together, and you could see that the
scaled picture of the two outside pins of the train track matched exactly to the injuries
on JonBenet. You've got this train room and pieces of track here in this room and then there
were pieces of train track in the crime scene video that were on the floor in Burke's room
as well. I thought it was an incredible discovery to find a toy in the house that could have
been responsible for these injuries."