BREAKING NEWS: New DNA Analysis Suggests Family Should NOT Have Been Cleared

singularity · Nov 4, 2016

Heymom said:
Not necessarily, sometimes little girls get notions about what their parents should/should not do. Maybe she'd heard talk from her mom about how beer makes you fat, or something from another child about their own parent's drinking. We don't know. Little girls can be Miss Bossy Boots at times, and like little mommies.

Maybe so but if that's the case she could've just as easily said no salted peanuts, no special sauce on your Big Mac, etc. Instead the two vices that go hand in hand were singled out, one of which hadn't even been mentioned by his interrogators and they were imbeciles for not asking him to elaborate on the statement.

YOu're right...we don't know exactly but that's the BPD/DA's fault. In a murder case that happens in a clearly dysfunctional household and liquor gets brought up, you need to find out how much these people drank and what impact it had on them, if any.

kanzz · Nov 4, 2016

DrollForeignFaction said:
Speaking of things about JR/JB's relationship that seem are probably innocuous but seem odd, here's a little story from Judith Phillips that came to mind while reading this discussion:

I saw John with JB alone together once. He was driving her to school and I was there measuing a wall for a photograph that Patsy was interested in buying. There was the normal activity in the house that morning trying to get the kids to school. John offered to give me a lift home. When we got to the Jeep, he pulled back the seat and expected me to climb in the back while he and JB rode in the front. I thought this was somewhat strange, because when an adult rides with me, kids always get in the back.

Click to expand...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?6429-JonBenet-CD-on-eBay/page3

That is rude and arrogant of JR, for one thing. But might also have something to do with JB sometimes being Little Miss Sassy-Pants.. who knows? As far as Colorado child restraint laws go, I could only find the most recent ones. And I would think they'd be more restrictive than in the past (?).

https://www.codot.gov/safety/seatbelts-carseats/carseats/frequently-asked-questions.html#collapseThree

Tortoise · Nov 4, 2016

singularity said:
While I knew you were PDI(obviously), I didn't realize you thought it boiled down to Jonbenet 'spilling the beans' to that extent. Not sure I can buy it playing out like that(although you may be right), I do agree that what happened was some sort of domestic dispute that went to the extreme.

They both should have been grilled on their marriage and their history but BPD/DA never even went there. There's an exhange in JOhn's interview that was a red flag that should've been picked up on.

MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?

JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house. And Jonbenet would actually get after me if I smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
something like that. So, once or twice a week,maybe.

---------

That is a huge reveal. The only reason a child that age would not want their parents drinking is if they associate the drinking of liquor with negative things such as arguing or fighting. If these aren't present, to a child the drink of beer by parents would be no different than a drink of soda. It wouldn't even be on her radar.....yet it was.

Smit and Kane didn't even acknowlege the statement.

It may be the case, but there is another valid reason for these children to be concerned about their parents drinking and smoking. Speaking from personal experience, Patsy's cancer would no doubt have heightened their awareness of toxins. Parental health becomes a much bigger concern to children, and not only in relation to the one who has cancer, they have an interest in ensuring that the other parent does not also get cancer.

BBB167893 · Nov 4, 2016

k-mac said:
yes i plan to read your book dave look forward to it

Thanks, k-mac.

i cant come at the unified front if JR molested her. PR in that case probably would have killed herself in heartbreak or divorced him and took him to the cleaners. even if you think they are holding each other responsible at the end of the day PR would have come up the victim and JR the monster if that all tumbled out. accountability is uneven.
that brings me back to BDI. its the only conclusion PR and JRs unquestionable togetherness supports.
we all know they werent madly in love?
why the heck didnt this break them?
my parents lost a child.....broke them.
they behaved as equals in this. that is very revealing.
jmho!

I hear what you say, k-mac. And I admit, it makes sense on the surface. But I can't get past all of the mothers who stick by their husbands/boyfriends who molest daughters AND blame the little victims. Remember what Patsy's reaction in my scenario was: "you're lying! I'll teach you to tell filthy lies like that!" And my view is that she would react that way BECAUSE of what you say: her rich lifestyle coming to an end. You say she could have taken John to the cleaners, but I have to ask how? All the money was in HIS name. What was she going to pay her divorce lawyer with? His lawyer would SHRED her.

IF I'm right, and that is a VERY BIG if (I admit that), a unified front is just what the doctor ordered. Doesn't matter if they were madly in love or not. Committing murder isn't like taking a bus ride; they can't get off at different stops. They've got to ride it out to the end, and the last stop is the cemetery.

BBB167893 · Nov 4, 2016

singularity said:
While I knew you were PDI(obviously), I didn't realize you thought it boiled down to Jonbenet 'spilling the beans' to that extent. Not sure I can buy it playing out like that(although you may be right), I do agree that what happened was some sort of domestic dispute that went to the extreme.

For me, singularity, it was the only scenario that explained ALL the evidence. It's only a theory, but to my thinking at the time, it all fit together like a watch. But, that's because I absolutely REFUSED to consider Burke a suspect. I may have been very wrong.

They both should have been grilled on their marriage and their history but BPD/DA never even went there. There's an exhange in JOhn's interview that was a red flag that should've been picked up on.

MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?

JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house. And Jonbenet would actually get after me if I smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
something like that. So, once or twice a week,maybe.

---------

That is a huge reveal. The only reason a child that age would not want their parents drinking is if they associate the drinking of liquor with negative things such as arguing or fighting. If these aren't present, to a child the drink of beer by parents would be no different than a drink of soda. It wouldn't even be on her radar.....yet it was.

Smit and Kane didn't even acknowledge the statement.

Yes, I noticed that, too. And it's a shame that neither one picked up on it. I agree, it is significant.

BBB167893 · Nov 4, 2016

buggiegirl said:
Even IDIs should want that DNA retested in this case. Everyone who was cleared by that is technically back on the table. IMO, if the Ramseys themselves don't push to have things retested it will be incredibly clear that they are guilty. What reason could they possibly have to not ask for a retest? Just don't care who killed her?

That would be my diagnosis.

Better question: why didn't Mary Lacy do further testing when she COULD have done it?

singularity · Nov 4, 2016

SuperDave said:
TAnd my view is that she would react that way BECAUSE of what you say: her rich lifestyle coming to an end. You say she could have taken John to the cleaners, but I have to ask how? All the money was in HIS name. What was she going to pay her divorce lawyer with? His lawyer would SHRED her.

Patsy couldn't(wouldn't) cook the goose that is laying the golden eggs.

Doesn't matter if they were madly in love or not. Committing murder isn't like taking a bus ride; they can't get off at different stops. They've got to ride it out to the end, and the last stop is the cemetery.

Absolutely. I don't understand why some people say that the only person they would cover for is Burke. Self preservation, greenback dollars, and keeping up the facade of the perfect family are prime motivators.

I doubt there was much love in the marriage anyways, at least at that point. The ransom note is venom and contempt being spewed in John's face.

For me, singularity, it was the only scenario that explained ALL the evidence. It's only a theory, but to my thinking at the time, it all fit together like a watch. But, that's because I absolutely REFUSED to consider Burke a suspect. I may have been very wrong.

Don't start traveling down the wrong path now, buddy.... :fence:

Better question: why didn't Mary Lacy do further testing when she COULD have done it?

Because she knew how insignificant it really was and that it might nail the coffin shut on IDI.

DeDee · Nov 4, 2016

Ambitioned said:
Nup!! Not the ones we had anyway.

From this pic, we had #7 for Lionel. Here's a site with the different "old" tracks. Another rabbit hole you didn't want to go down I'm sure ullhair:

Website

Edit: Looking at the track Kolar used, Burke may have been using #6 the O track. But those use pins too.

I seem to recall doing a study on Burke's electric train for WS so it's here somewhere! The Lionel style train Burke owned was designed by Neil Young and it's inaugural debut.

Neil is the father of children with disabilities. He invented this particular train for his disabled son. He owned part or most of Lionel RR. It is quite a fascinating story. Might be quicker to read about it on Wikipedia under Lionel, Neil Young keywords, if you are interested. In fact, it seems Neil Young may still own part of the famous company.

Oh, and I've always thought that the "butt print" was made by Burke sitting at the top of the 2nd floor stairs, which, incidentally, is also where JBs bedroom door was located. I think he was listening to his parents while they were talking down stairs. Sneaky little guy was eavesdropping and not at the distance from his safe bed.

kanzz · Nov 4, 2016

DeDee said:
I seem to recall doing a study on Burke's electric train for WS so it's here somewhere! The Lionel style train Burke owned was designed by Neil Young and it's inaugural debut.

Neil is the father of children with disabilities. He invented this particular train for his disabled son. He owned part or most of Lionel RR. It is quite a fascinating story. Might be quicker to read about it on Wikipedia under Lionel, Neil Young keywords, if you are interested. In fact, it seems Neil Young may still own part of the famous company.

Oh, and I've always thought that the "butt print" was made by Burke sitting at the top of the 2nd floor stairs, which, incidentally, is also where JBs bedroom door was located. I think he was listening to his parents while they were talking down stairs. Sneaky little guy was eavesdropping and not at the distance from his safe bed.

Thanks for the info, DeDee. Very cool!

Here's what I found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainmaster_Command_Control

"Trainmaster Command (TMCC) is Lionel's electronic control system for O scale 3-rail model trains and toy trains that mainly ran from 1994 to 2006."
(BBM)
Which is this type of track (as Kolar said):

doublestop · Nov 4, 2016

singularity said:
JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house. And Jonbenet would actually get after me if I smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
something like that. So, once or twice a week,maybe.
---------
That is a huge reveal. The only reason a child that age would not want their parents drinking is if they associate the drinking of liquor with negative things such as arguing or fighting. If these aren't present, to a child the drink of beer by parents would be no different than a drink of soda. It wouldn't even be on her radar.....yet it was.

Not necessarily. They would have had Red Ribbon Week in late October, and it would have been drilled into their heads at school that drinking and smoking were bad. I know a number of parents whose kids nagged them about their vices after learning about them at school.

k-mac · Nov 5, 2016

DeDee said:
Oh, and I've always thought that the "butt print" was made by Burke sitting at the top of the 2nd floor stairs, which, incidentally, is also where JBs bedroom door was located. I think he was listening to his parents while they were talking down stairs. Sneaky little guy was eavesdropping and not at the distance from his safe bed.

yes!
100% agree
i also reckon he spent a fair bit of time roaming around her room while mum and dad were working stuff out downstairs.
maybe this is when the poop smearing occurred on the chocolate box.
poor kid i have to say no matter what happened who did it....the fact they left him to his own devices after the fact is bizaar and accentuates how little effort they put into those kids mentally.
all about the show.
still is.

k-mac · Nov 5, 2016

SuperDave said:
Thanks, k-mac.

o You say she could have taken John to the cleaners, but I have to ask how? All the money was in HIS name. What was she going to pay her divorce lawyer with? His lawyer would SHRED her.

thanks for reply SD
well ...how you say....ok
i dont know about america but in australia its a womans world lol

JR wasnt a wealthy man when they started out. i remember a interview he said when they started out he was earning $18,000.
my guess would be PR would feel very entitled to JRs worth and no doubt credits herself for his making. which in fairness i do believe she was instrumental in the early days (before BR) to their new enterprise.
i reckon she woulda went alright in the courts!
jmho

PositiveLight · Nov 5, 2016

doublestop said:
Not necessarily. They would have had Red Ribbon Week in late October, and it would have been drilled into their heads at school that drinking and smoking were bad. I know a number of parents whose kids nagged them about their vices after learning about them at school.

*raises hand*
My son during the school assembly during Red Ribbon Week stood up in front of everyone (including teachers that had taught me!) and decided to spill the beans that me and my husband did drugs...... :facepalm: Cause his daddy drank beer before and dipped tobacco and I drank beer also before and smoked cigarettes....... At car pickup that day all of my previous teachers could barely breathe because they were laughing so hard trying to tell me what he did. :shame:
Of course I had a good laugh about it but! I do think it's wrong for them to teach kids that alcohol is a drug as well as tobacco. They are legal as long as you are old enough to purchase them. But they don't teach the kids that. Lol my child was the only kid out of the whole school to stand up and say anything. Bless him! :facepalm:

PositiveLight · Nov 5, 2016

k-mac said:
thanks for reply SD
well ...how you say....ok
i dont know about america but in australia its a womans world lol

JR wasnt a wealthy man when they started out. i remember a interview he said when they started out he was earning $18,000.
my guess would be PR would feel very entitled to JRs worth and no doubt credits herself for his making. which in fairness i do believe she was instrumental in the early days (before BR) to their new enterprise.
i reckon she woulda went alright in the courts!
jmho

IIRC..
JR gave PR an allowance.

Heymom · Nov 5, 2016

Tortoise said:
It may be the case, but there is another valid reason for these children to be concerned about their parents drinking and smoking. Speaking from personal experience, Patsy's cancer would no doubt have heightened their awareness of toxins. Parental health becomes a much bigger concern to children, and not only in relation to the one who has cancer, they have an interest in ensuring that the other parent does not also get cancer.

I just don't know what kind of awareness the kids would have had about Patsy's illness. I know my mother was chronically ill my entire life (she died when I was 10) but at the time, I just thought that it was normal to spend time at the hospital getting treatments...I remember playing in the hallways, doctor's offices, etc. and my mother taking nitroglycerin for her heart...She was extremely thin due to heart disease but I guess as a child, I never really thought she was sick. My sister has better cognition as she was 3 years older than I was and more aware of the issues. I know that after my mother died I was very insecure and still am, about certain things, but growing up I didn't know any better or maybe my mom and dad sort of protected me.

p.s. After she died, I could no longer stand the smell of hospitals. For a long time I wouldn't go near them. Then I got a job in one. :blushing:

Ambitioned · Nov 5, 2016

PositiveLight said:
*raises hand*
My son during the school assembly during Red Ribbon Week stood up in front of everyone (including teachers that had taught me!) and decided to spill the beans that me and my husband did drugs...... :facepalm: Cause his daddy drank beer before and dipped tobacco and I drank beer also before and smoked cigarettes....... At car pickup that day all of my previous teachers could barely breathe because they were laughing so hard trying to tell me what he did. :shame:
Of course I had a good laugh about it but! I do think it's wrong for them to teach kids that alcohol is a drug as well as tobacco. They are legal as long as you are old enough to purchase them. But they don't teach the kids that. Lol my child was the only kid out of the whole school to stand up and say anything. Bless him! :facepalm:

What a guy!!!! :lol: Reminds me of "Kindergarten Cop." "My daddy looks at vaginas all day long." WHAT?

I'm all for school spirit and the like but I'm such a rebel. In between AP classes, homework, and swimming, I was exhausted. When RR week came around I never paid attention to mismatched socks and trying to find something tie dyed so I simply didn't participate in it.

One time I had to write a one page essay about why I don't use drugs. I just simply wrote, "I don't use drugs because I'm not dumb. It has nothing to do with reading a slogan." The teacher told me it took all she had to refrain from laughing.

Thought you would find this entertaining:

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/educ...-moms-rant-red-ribbon-week-schools-goes-viral

BBB167893 · Nov 5, 2016

singularity said:
Patsy couldn't(wouldn't) cook the goose that is laying the golden eggs.

Exactly.

Absolutely. I don't understand why some people say that the only person they would cover for is Burke. Self preservation, greenback dollars, and keeping up the facade of the perfect family are prime motivators.

That's the way I look at it, too.

I doubt there was much love in the marriage anyways, at least at that point. The ransom note is venom and contempt being spewed in John's face.

I'm sure she figured it was all his fault for starting the problem. Just because you're bound up with someone doesn't mean you like them.

Don't start traveling down the wrong path now, buddy.... :fence:

The Lifetime special on Patsy sure as hell is going down the wrong path!

Because she knew how insignificant it really was and that it might nail the coffin shut on IDI.

That would be the obvious answer.

Ambitioned · Nov 5, 2016

SuperDave said:
The Lifetime special on Patsy sure as hell is going down the wrong path!
.

I couldn't find it being streamed. Did they really have Burke yell about his cola? :lol:

BBB167893 · Nov 5, 2016

k-mac said:
thanks for reply SD
well ...how you say....ok
i dont know about america but in australia its a womans world lol

Well, divorce is a woman's world in America, too--at least, that's the perception of it. But in America, money talks.

JR wasn't a wealthy man when they started out. i remember a interview he said when they started out he was earning $18,000.
my guess would be PR would feel very entitled to JRs worth and no doubt credits herself for his making. which in fairness i do believe she was instrumental in the early days (before BR) to their new enterprise.
i reckon she woulda went alright in the courts!
jmho

I know that her parents loaned him some money to get his business started. But even if she had a good claim to it, as you say, she'd still have to fight for it. And she was not in good health.

BBB167893 · Nov 5, 2016

Ambitioned said:
I couldn't find it being streamed. Did they really have Burke yell about his cola? :lol:

I don't know. I haven't watched the full thing. But with the exception of Jeff Shapiro, who is giving a good accounting, it's all IDI "experts," including Howard Rile, the paid Ramsey handwriting analyst, John San Augustin, and those A&E frauds.

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