What's eating you alive re this case?

EtherealMoonRose said:

This is my first time posting. I have been following this case since I was a young girl. I am 2 years older than JB so I guess that has something to do with my curiosity regarding this case.

I just wanted to say that I agree with ALL of this. Although I don't have an opinion on where the murder took place, either JB bedroom, BR bedroom or even the basement. The scream that the neighbour heard was PR discovering a lifeless JB. JMO.

I also wanted to add that I am a mother of four young children so it's also hard for me to fathom a mother OR father strangling their daughter to stage a crime (yes, I do know parents are capable of horrible things..)

Click to expand...

:welcome6:

Glad to have you here!

Glad to be here! Thanks for the warm welcome! 😁

EtherealMoonRose said:

This is my first time posting. I have been following this case since I was a young girl. I am 2 years older than JB so I guess that has something to do with my curiosity regarding this case.

I just wanted to say that I agree with ALL of this. Although I don't have an opinion on where the murder took place, either JB bedroom, BR bedroom or even the basement. The scream that the neighbour heard was PR discovering a lifeless JB. JMO.

I also wanted to add that I am a mother of four young children so it's also hard for me to fathom a mother OR father strangling their daughter to stage a crime (yes, I do know parents are capable of horrible things..)

Click to expand...

Welcome.

Yeah, I can actually grasp evil, murderous parents more than I can a parent or parents staging this in such a way shortly after learning their child was suddenly dead or dying. And I agree that was almost certainly a high-pitched scream of horror from Patsy that the neighbor heard. But she managed to write that ransom diatribe, so we know she was able to go at least that far to cover up the crime. Where Burke left off and Patsy and John took over is the real mystery here.

BOBON said:

Very good points there! I am not sayingthat Burke wasn't neglected (JB was clearly
the favorite) but in regards to his bed looking very simple, I also know that
Aspergers/Autistic people don't like certain textures/farbics so it could be easily
explained that maybe he just didn't want many layers - just a thought

Click to expand...

An interesting observation for sure, and one potentially consistent with a Dx of Autism Spectrum Disorder. Good catch.

It's not clear, though, what the correct Dx is for BR (I see him as possibly schizoid or schizotypal). But whatever the issue, aversion to certain fabrics or heavy covers may easily explain the thin bedspread but not why the problem wasn't solved.

If BR's bedroom was unusable on very cold winter nights because covers were an issue, then it was up to the parents to do something -- relocate him to a warmer sleeping room in winter, add an electric or lightweight down blanket, use a plug-in radiator with a thermostat, buy him an official mountain climber's brand sleeping bag that would appeal to him (like the boots with the compass). To my mind, it was mean to ignore the problem or say, 'If you get cold, just use the other bed in JonBenet's room,' (even though it's at the other end of the house and probably covered with stuff that'll be in your way. Just don't bother us, because, you know, Daddy takes melatonin, and Mom's the queen of sleep.').

It's the stinginess and empathic laziness that incense. If you're millionaires in a mansion but can't be bothered to keep one of your children warm enough on nights with sub-zero temperatures, what the hell are you good for?

BOBON said:

I don't think that anyone has a official diagnosis but he certainly could be on the spectrum. He can't tell conversational / emotional clues,
albeit he may be a good liar (does as told) you can see that he is utterly uncomfortable and awkward in the Dr Phil interview, he is smiling at (what society deems as inappropriate moments) but I don't think it's because
he thinks it's funny but more so because he doesn't understand how to act- if he would be a psychopath, he'd be at ease with putting on a mask, blending in and pretending
to be sly charming, messing with the viewers and Dr Phil - people can say that he put on the show of being
awkward but I truly believe it was his true nature showing and it would fit in with his computer work - working
remotely from home, he doesn't have much contact with anyone, he also never had it as a child. He liked computer games but hated the noise (another thing that would fit with being on the spectrum)
Seeing how he got no attention as a child and also was different from everyone else, he must have had some inner frustration
which can be shown in "lashing out"... paring that with the poop smearing possibly from trauma / neglect,
I think another possibility being RAD (reactive attachment disorder)... it is an illness that means the child has no bond with family and it can happen due to them being a victim of abuse, neglect or abandonment.

RAD:
[FONT=&quot]An aversion to touch and physical affection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Control issues. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anger problems. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Difficulty showing genuine care and affection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]An underdeveloped conscience. Children with reactive attachment disorder may act like they don’t have a conscience and fail to show guilt, regret, or remorse after behaving badly.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

BOBON,
Interesting post. I reckon BR is somewhere on the spectrum. He is likely to have had some form of medical intervention and is probably currently prescribed medication?

Kolar patently thinks BR has some kind of mental issues, which underpins his theory.

Two aspects everyone should consider and take seriously is the possibility of BR's alleged sexual behavior and a fecal fetish, added to the desire to kill his sister?

Personally I reckon we have the interplay of parental neglect and BR's spectrum issues, all resulting in JonBenet's death?


.

UKGuy said:

BOBON,
Interesting post. I reckon BR is somewhere on the spectrum. He is likely to have had some form of medical intervention and is probably currently prescribed medication?

Kolar patently thinks BR has some kind of mental issues, which underpins his theory.

Two aspects everyone should consider and take seriously is the possibility of BR's alleged sexual behavior and a fecal fetish, added to the desire to kill his sister?

Personally I reckon we have the interplay of parental neglect and BR's spectrum issues, all resulting in JonBenet's death?


.

Click to expand...

Good points, UKguy.


I wish we'd have more information about Burke to get a better picture.


In the case he is on the Aspergers Spectrum / Autism, there isn't much one can
do apart from intensive cognitive behavioral therapy where they learn to read social cues and social skills and / or combined with meds, most likely something for anxiety (SSRIs) and mood stabilizers or beta blockers so they are less irritable.
Seeing Burke on Dr Phil, I'd say he is not heavily medicated, he doesn't seem slow
or numb, he clearly understands the questions and there is no weight gain (often assossiated with anti depression meds) his anxiety still shows, he just has no grasp of how to make his facial responses match with his voice and also the tone of voice often doesn't fit the given subject. I wonder if he received any CBT. I feel as if it got worse with age or maybe he was just more anxious now as an adult, being part of a tv show which was televised to the whole world, where he had to make sure not to mess up .. and you can see it in his eyes
that he was super anxious about it - understandably so.




It's just such a mystery to me..In case of the sexual abuse / murder of his sister, people who are on the Aspergers or suffer from Autism can kill, often due to revenge, for example the case of Adam Lanza. But both the sexual interest and the murder also makes me think of RAD. Here is a documtentary of a child who had a severe case of Rad (trigger warning due
to extreme content [video=youtube;ME2wmFunCjU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME2wmFunCjU[/video]) but as you can see, it is commen for the disease that children who have it have to remorse, no bond nor do they care about others, they know that if they hurt someone it will evoke an extreme reaction and sometimes a negative reaction (from parent, sibling etc)
is better than no reaction at all in their mind. Wasn't there some sort of mystery surrounding on of their pets going missing? I'd say if Burke indeed hurt animals as a child, RAD is much more likely.


Then also, the older Ramsey brother comes into play, my theory is still that he might have been the original offender, abusing Burke, it can be a learned behavior, who then out of trauma offended himself. Feces smearing is both seen in kids with autism and kids who have suffered abuse/neglect.


If he was abused, it would also make sense that he was a loner child, who didn't interact with other kids and mostly did solitary activities. I think it was the neighbor who recounted that her children were the same age as Burke but ended up playing with JB instead because he showed no interest in interaction.


Something that we can all agree on that there is something wrong with Burke, whatever it was, smearing feces onto his sister's chocolate is certainly a sign
that he was not happy and it was done out of revenge. Even now ,at almost 30 years old, he doesn't seem like a regular, healthy adult. If I hadn't read about his childhood or saw his psychiatrist interviews as kid, I'd say it's normal for a person to be broken after their sister gets murdered, but since he already seemed as if something was off about him as a child, it just reinforces my ideas.

If someone can come up with a list about strange behavior events regarding Burke, it would be very helpful.
Also, if someone knows how long JAR lived inside the house, it would also help with time lines. TY

Bobon,

Thanks for posting about RAD. It's' one of a number of diagnoses work a look. Kolar speculated about SBP, and I am still considering schizoid and schizotypal personality disorders, especially the latter, which would include abnormal sexual behaviors and aggression, sensory hypersensitivity, reclusive tendencies, eccentric interactions with others, etc. I am not arguing for any particular Dx, just not at all comfortable with an assumed Dx of autism or Aspergers, or anti-social PD, simply because these terms are more widely known, or there's a short list of matching traits. It's easy to go down a wrong path doing that, multiplying errors as we go.

Meara said:

Bobon,

Thanks for posting about RAD. It's' one of a number of diagnoses work a look. Kolar speculated about SBP, and I am still considering schizoid and schizotypal personality disorders, especially the latter, which would include abnormal sexual behaviors and aggression, sensory hypersensitivity, reclusive tendencies, eccentric interactions with others, etc. I am not arguing for any particular Dx, just not at all comfortable with an assumed Dx of autism or Aspergers, or anti-social PD, simply because these terms are more widely known, or there's a short list of matching traits. It's easy to go down a wrong path doing that, multiplying errors as we go.

Click to expand...

The schizoid path is one I've overlooked, I consider that a personal failure.
It's true that both schizoid and avoidant have anxiety as part of their condition
so it's another good call!


We are all just speculating, it's certainly impossible to assess someone
we hardly know and many mental disorders share same or similar aspects but I do
enjoy coming up with possibly scenarios nonetheless.


Did anyone see if Burke held any eye contact at all during the interview with Doctor Phil?

Meara said:

Bobon,

Thanks for posting about RAD. It's' one of a number of diagnoses work a look.

Click to expand...

"worth a look"

Cerin Amroth said:

So is the consensus that Burke was/is autistic?

Click to expand...

I'm no expert at all, but three members of my family (uncle, and two cousins) are on the spectrum. My uncle has Aspergers and my cousins have more severe forms of autism. Personally, I don't see how anyone can conclude Burke is autistic based upon what we've seen of him. Not every kid with mental health issues is autistic; far from it. And if he is autistic, he's about as high functioning as they come. So I get a little irritated when people watch him them or now and say - "He's really weird. Must be autism."

BOBON said:

The schizoid path is one I've overlooked, I consider that a personal failure.
It's true that both schizoid and avoidant have anxiety as part of their condition
so it's another good call!


We are all just speculating, it's certainly impossible to assess someone
we hardly know and many mental disorders share same or similar aspects but I do
enjoy coming up with possibly scenarios nonetheless.


Did anyone see if Burke held any eye contact at all during the interview with Doctor Phil?

Click to expand...

Bobon, I couldn't swear to it, but my impression is that eye contact was fleeting, if it occurred at all.

True, we have enough information to generate a list of possible diagnoses (and rule out others), but not enough for reliable differential diagnosis. Like you, though, I keep working at the puzzle. Another very relevant feature of Schizoid PD is the aversion to noise and lively, spontaneous interpersonal behavior, and intrusion into personal space. If it applies, BR would often have found his little sister's company a kind of torment, quite apart from the favoritism. It would explain the kind of high reactivity that would make the "it started when JBR stole a piece of BR's pineapple" scenario credible.

No failure. In many ways the house is a metaphor for the case. We have to walk around in it a long time before we recognize every part and detail, and longer still before our orientation is instinctive.

HarmonyE. said:

I'm no expert at all, but three members of my family (uncle, and two cousins) are on the spectrum. My uncle has Aspergers and my cousins have more severe forms of autism. Personally, I don't see how anyone can conclude Burke is autistic based upon what we've seen of him. Not every kid with mental health issues is autistic; far from it. And if he is autistic, he's about as high functioning as they come. So I get a little irritated when people watch him them or now and say - "He's really weird. Must be autism."

Click to expand...

Agree. Wholeheartedly. I just don't see Aspergers in BR.

I think he probably does have a personality disorder, as I've said before. However, I see him in the Cluster B group (Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissistic), rather than in Cluster A (schizoid or schizotypal), having been a callous-unemotional as a child.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/personality-disorders/what-are-personality-disorders

"In forensic settings around the world, like forensic hospitals and prisons, personality disorders are the most prevalent form of psychiatric disorder. Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is defined in the DSM-V largely by a persistent pattern of antisocial behavior, affects up to eighty percent of the people in these institutions."
(These people think they can make some money.. I mean treat it.) http://www.schematherapysociety.org/Research-Blog/3226432

kanzz said:

Agree. Wholeheartedly. I just don't see Aspergers in BR.

I think he probably does have a personality disorder, as I've said before. However, I see him in the Cluster B group (Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissistic), rather than in Cluster A (schizoid or schizotypal), having been a callous-unemotional as a child.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/personality-disorders/what-are-personality-disorders

"In forensic settings around the world, like forensic hospitals and prisons, personality disorders are the most prevalent form of psychiatric disorder. Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is defined in the DSM-V largely by a persistent pattern of antisocial behavior, affects up to eighty percent of the people in these institutions."
(These people think they can make some money.. I mean treat it.) http://www.schematherapysociety.org/Research-Blog/3226432

Click to expand...

kanzz, with all respect, BR doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial PD, all of which fall under the controlling characteristic of an enduring, pervasive, and aggressive disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others. ASPDs are manipulative, deceitful, irresponsible and, though some hide it better than others, essentially hostile. As much as we know of him as a child, BR was more emotionally detached and socially inhibited than aggressive. He appears to be much the same at 30.

I think it's probably safe to assume that whoever did these things to JBR had to have had some kind of mental problems.

If, as a lot of us think, BR did committed this crime then I would think he DID receive intensive therapy afterwards. It may even have been insisted upon by the court, once the GJ's verdict was known.

A good display of Antisocial personality disorder (and the Cluster B group) is documented in the book and movie "We need to talk about Kevin". I also agree that I can't see how Burke meets this diagnosis because if I look at the Dr Phil interview, I don't see a cunning master manipulator with no regard for anyone, thinking he is superior, I see a weak man child, not able to understand social cues and how to act in the given situation.

If he was histrionic, he'd have used his chance to talk and be in the limelight much earlier, also, if he'd fit the criteria he would have faked compassion, that the sister is on his mind everyday, he might have even squeezed some tears out, but as the interview stands, there was none of it. He was just doing the "uhm sorry can't remember I was a kid *awkward smile*... without any emotional attachment. If he were cluster B, he'd at least fake emotional attachment as to not be detected.

He probably didn't feel the need to fake compassion. Why should he? His livelihood doesn't depend on his demeanour and he probably just thinks that people can think what they like.

His attitude after the murder was one of 'couldn't care less' and nothing seems to have changed. He seemed more interested in his Nintendo back then.

I suspect he was a spoilt rotten kid and is now a spoilt rotten adult. He's always had money; enough that he can stay at home playing computer games all day. (I don't buy the "He has a job in a high tech industry and works from home cr*p)

He'll now always have money, thanks to his deceased sister. In 2000 his parents sued around 8 media companies on Burke's behalf, and I think they won out of court settlements - that's a lot of money.

And with another load of money coming his way in the near future, that will be him set up for life.

And as long as people continue to speculate and accuse him of being involved in the murder of his sister, the longer he, his father and their lawyers, can continue to sue people. The good times will continue to roll.

Miz Adventure said:

He probably didn't feel the need to fake compassion. Why should he? His livelihood doesn't depend on his demeanour and he probably just thinks that people can think what they like.

Click to expand...

I respect your opinion but I personally don't agree at all.
He didn't feel the need to fake compassion, so he went for the "there
is obviously something wrong with me lol" tactic instead?
If he didn't feel the need to act any particular way, he'd have just acted
"normal", for example like John. If you compare John's reactions with Burkes' it is obvious
that Burke suffers from a disorder and with most ASPD in cluster B, this behaviour
does not fit the diagnosis at all. A histrionic person would try to get more attention
by for example crying, a person who enjoys gaslighting others would at least attempt
to feign a standard response, Burke did none of that because he has no clue how to. And that's the point here.
He hardly interacted with children as a kid so why is it strange that he is a recluse now?
I don't see that as a "he has money "issue, more as a "he doesn't want contact with people" issue.
Of course he has less to worry about anything because he can buy his way out of things and that is
learned behavior but that doesn't counter the fact that he isn't a cunning, vicious psychopath.

Miz Adventure said:

He probably didn't feel the need to fake compassion. Why should he? His livelihood doesn't depend on his demeanour and he probably just thinks that people can think what they like.

His attitude after the murder was one of 'couldn't care less' and nothing seems to have changed. He seemed more interested in his Nintendo back then.

I suspect he was a spoilt rotten kid and is now a spoilt rotten adult. He's always had money; enough that he can stay at home playing computer games all day. (I don't buy the "He has a job in a high tech industry and works from home cr*p)

He'll now always have money, thanks to his deceased sister. In 2000 his parents sued around 8 media companies on Burke's behalf, and I think they won out of court settlements - that's a lot of money.

And with another load of money coming his way in the near future, that will be him set up for life.

And as long as people continue to speculate and accuse him of being involved in the murder of his sister, the longer he, his father and their lawyers, can continue to sue people. The good times will continue to roll.

Click to expand...

Just a couple of things. An out of court settlement is not technically a win, even though it might be a windfall. This means the defendant or his/its insurance carrier has opted to pay settlement money instead of paying attorneys to defend the case. Many times it's cheaper to settle than it is to continue to defend. It's my understand that Lin Wood has never actually "won" a judgement on behalf any of they Ramseys, although he tries to spin these voluntary settlements as "wins" and the dummies in the media fall in line, as they usually do with him and the Ramseys. I have never heard any actual settlement figures, so I'm guessing these have all been confidential, although someone please correct this information if I'm wrong.

http://www.documentary.org/magazine/errors-omissions-rights-oh-my-guide-protecting-your-film


Errors & Omissions is a requirement for distribution deals with studios, television, cable networks, DVD and Internet sites. These distributors of media require the filmmaker to protect them from claims that may result when the production is released. The distributors will outline the required licensing terms and limits in their agreements--for example, standard limits are $1,000,000 per claim/$3,000,000 aggregate with a deductible of $10,000.

Is the suggested AEA behaviour patten in childhood
exclusive to a partiular diagnostic cluster

BOBON
re video
Child sticks pins in people and has the desire to kill.
Wow, that video really puts RAD into focus.
Possibly mirrors many of the aspects of this case.