OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #25

chissus said:

Have the mobile homes been given back to the families yet? I wonder if what LE was looking for ever showed up in them. I wonder if LE was just trying to make the murderers nervous enough to make a mistake. I wonder why they are keeping the autopsies from the public. The murderers know how they died.

I am getting so frustrated I want to stomp away but I'm addicted to this crime. Has it gone to the FBI yet? That's where it belongs.

Click to expand...

FBI and DEA initially had some limited participation, but DeWine's office and Ohio BCI have been in charge pretty much from the start. We've never seen any quotes or interviews from feds, with the exception of the retired DEA agents who spoke to the media in the first week after the killings.

Reader & DeWine have always said the trailers are in storage in case they need a jury to look at them during a trial. They claim they have all the evidence they retrieved in their own custody.

As for news media interest, it's very surprising to see the Cincy and Columbus newspapers filing the lawsuit to view autopsy info, but its unlikely any other news outlet inside Ohio will look into the case. News media here usually don't challenge the leaders at the state capitol. It would be great if someone outside Ohio did investigative journalism, interviewed the families, etc. Daily Mail did a little at first, but cooled down after that.

One example I can think of where social media and outside journalists had an impact was with the Steubenville rape case a couple of years ago.

Steubenville High School rape case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case

It was one of those sad cases where a young girl was passed out drunk at a party and subsequently raped by a group of football players who documented it on social media. It was all going to be swept under the rug by the principal and football coach until demonstrators showed up in town to protest and national news media followed. Pressure was applied to the local Congressman who called DeWine. They piddled around, but the case really broke open when the group "Anonymous" hacked the investigative files and threatened to reveal the other football players who participated in the rape, but were not arrested.

DeWine was forced to act after that. He empaneled a grand jury and finally revealed all the files. There were more arrests made as a result and another rape was uncovered.

Apparently, it sometimes takes Anonymous hacking files to break open cases in Ohio (just kidding).

Local Ohio news media know more than we do why they need access to the redacted info in the autopsy reports or they wouldn't have taken this to the Ohio Supreme Court. JMO

rsd1200 said:

Just looking at the redacted reports, in the way that they were redacted, lets the imagination run wild. Idk if they redacted it to try and be coy, or if there was actually some real, well-founded reason behind it being pertinent to the case. I mean, if it will not help with the case, the autopsy is your final medical record, and I'm fine w/them not being released. However, if there was body mutilation of some type then, yes, I think it should be released at this point. Maybe it could be connected to another case in that way. Maybe it will "click" with someone who hadn't thought of something they'd heard, as being pertinent, in the past. My only reason not to release is due to privacy and I think that at this point, these poor folks have little privacy left. Some of us probably know as much about them as some of their neighbors, and maybe some of their kin, so privacy is pretty much out the window, except for that last medical document. I just feel like I'm invading that last shred of privacy. If they release it, I'll likely read it though. I just feel bad for them, but if it will help catch who did this then I'm for releasing them.

Click to expand...

A better question is what is so terrible that the family would not want the public to know? Are they trying to conceal something about the victims that they would be ashamed for the public to know? Was something done to the victims that the family wouldn't want on the internet for the sake of the children when they get older and start researching?

There are so many possibilities. Then there is the privacy issue. The family may simply think it is no ones business but their own.

Does anyone know if the autopsies have been released on the Burgette, Newsome and Eapmon cases? There could be something in the way they were killed to tie them together with the Rhodens.

RAISINISBACK said:

A better question is what is so terrible that the family would not want the public to know? Are they trying to conceal something about the victims that they would be ashamed for the public to know? Was something done to the victims that the family wouldn't want on the internet for the sake of the children when they get older and start researching?

There are so many possibilities. Then there is the privacy issue. The family may simply think it is no ones business but their own.

Does anyone know if the autopsies have been released on the Burgette, Newsome and Eapmon cases? There could be something in the way they were killed to tie them together with the Rhodens.

Click to expand...

I'm still not sure the family has seen the full reports. Like most families, the information they got was probably very gruesome and they wanted to protect their privacy. Either way, their wishes were not the reason the reports were redacted.

http://www.wlwt.com/article/coroner-family-of-8-slain-feared-release-of-autopsy-details/9131287

Relatives of those victims raised concerns about the release of details of how their loved ones died, Pike County Coroner David Kessler said in his deposition.

"I met with the next of kin of all the deceased, answered their questions, and after preliminary autopsy, and at that point, they were not wanting information to get out in the public about exactly how things happened," Kessler said.

Click to expand...

Interesting in this article, Kessler says he never spoke with state investigators about redacting the reports. We're getting different stories here.

Kessler also said he didn't have conversations with criminal investigators about information he redacted in the full autopsy reports.

Click to expand...

The longer this case goes on, the less information is released and the more unusual the whole story becomes.

RAISINISBACK said:

A better question is what is so terrible that the family would not want the public to know? Are they trying to conceal something about the victims that they would be ashamed for the public to know? Was something done to the victims that the family wouldn't want on the internet for the sake of the children when they get older and start researching?

There are so many possibilities. Then there is the privacy issue. The family may simply think it is no ones business but their own.

Does anyone know if the autopsies have been released on the Burgette, Newsome and Eapmon cases? There could be something in the way they were killed to tie them together with the Rhodens.

Click to expand...

I'm still not sure the family has seen the full reports. Like most families, the information they got was probably very gruesome and they wanted to protect their privacy. Either way, their wishes were not the reason the reports were redacted.

http://www.wlwt.com/article/coroner-family-of-8-slain-feared-release-of-autopsy-details/9131287

Relatives of those victims raised concerns about the release of details of how their loved ones died, Pike County Coroner David Kessler said in his deposition.

"I met with the next of kin of all the deceased, answered their questions, and after preliminary autopsy, and at that point, they were not wanting information to get out in the public about exactly how things happened," Kessler said.

Click to expand...

Interesting in this article, Kessler says he never spoke with state investigators about redacting the reports. We're getting different stories here.

Kessler also said he didn't have conversations with criminal investigators about information he redacted in the full autopsy reports.

Click to expand...

The longer this case goes on, the less information is released and the more unusual the whole story becomes.

ETA: Anyone wanting to follow the Cincinnati Enquirer's case against Pike County can follow it at the Ohio Supreme Court's public docket

https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/Clerk/ecms/#/caseinfo/2016/1115

The case number is 2016-1115

Link to the filing from yesterday

http://supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=816543.pdf

RAISINISBACK said:

A better question is what is so terrible that the family would not want the public to know? Are they trying to conceal something about the victims that they would be ashamed for the public to know? Was something done to the victims that the family wouldn't want on the internet for the sake of the children when they get older and start researching?

There are so many possibilities. Then there is the privacy issue. The family may simply think it is no ones business but their own.

Does anyone know if the autopsies have been released on the Burgette, Newsome and Eapmon cases? There could be something in the way they were killed to tie them together with the Rhodens.

Click to expand...

Good question. I know LE was being vague about both of these also.

Notes from the Affadavit of Dr. Kessler, Pike County Coroner

http://supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=816543.pdf

Just notes, may or may not be relevant information

Dr. Kessler is an MD, but is a coroner, not an ME. First elected in 2003, relocated in 2005 and was appointed again after that

He's not a pathologist, does not conduct autopsies. He does the preliminary autopsy, but refers cases to Hamilton Co, with whom Pike Co has a contract to do full autopsies.

He typically sees 1 murder every 1 or 2 years in Pike County

The only time he has received a request from the news media for a copy of an autopsy report was for a suicide case. He provided it to the news media.

In late April he was called to examine the victims and crime scene at the Rhoden deaths. On his way there, he was diverted by BCI to meet with them. He and his deputy coroner coordinated with BCI and another unnamed county coroner who divided up the crime examination duties.

He was assigned to 2 crime scenes, his deputy assigned to a third (there were only 4 known at the time). He went with his deputy to her crime scene, too. He examined all the bodies in context and again after they were removed. Autopsies were ordered for all (it was obviously murder).

Montgomery County loaned them a refrigerated van for moving them to Hamilton Co. They examined all, tagged them and put them in the portable morgue to go to Hamilton Co.

He reviewed prelim and final autopsy reports. Manner of death is as stated on their death certificates

He recalled having a number of news media requests to view the preliminary autopsy reports, but they were denied by Pike Co Coroner's legal representative Rob Junk

He had news media requests to view the final autopsy reports, but denied them based on the need to protect the criminal investigation

Supplement 1 to Affadavit

He notes (after Cincinnati Enquirer mediation talks failed and lawsuit suit restarted) he released the redacted final autopsy reports to the news media

Up next, is the Affadavit for the BCI Special Agent from Pike County. Anyone want to help with summarizing these Affadavits? There are several. TIA

Betty P said:

Notes from the Affadavit of Dr. Kessler, Pike County Coroner

http://supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=816543.pdf

Just notes, may or may not be relevant information

Dr. Kessler is an MD, but is a coroner, not an ME. First elected in 2003, relocated in 2005 and was appointed again after that

He's not a pathologist, does not conduct autopsies. He does the preliminary autopsy, but refers cases to Hamilton Co, with whom Pike Co has a contract to do full autopsies.

He typically sees 1 murder every 1 or 2 years in Pike County

The only time he has received a request from the news media for a copy of an autopsy report was for a suicide case. He provided it to the news media.

In late April he was called to examine the victims and crime scene at the Rhoden deaths. On his way there, he was diverted by BCI to meet with them. He and his deputy coroner coordinated with BCI and another unnamed county coroner who divided up the crime examination duties.

He was assigned to 2 crime scenes, his deputy assigned to a third (there were only 4 known at the time). He went with his deputy to her crime scene, too. He examined all the bodies in context and again after they were removed. Autopsies were ordered for all (it was obviously murder).

Montgomery County loaned them a refrigerated van for moving them to Hamilton Co. They examined all, tagged them and put them in the portable morgue to go to Hamilton Co.

He reviewed prelim and final autopsy reports. Manner of death is as stated on their death certificates

He recalled having a number of news media requests to view the preliminary autopsy reports, but they were denied by Pike Co Coroner's legal representative Rob Junk

He had news media requests to view the final autopsy reports, but denied them based on the need to protect the criminal investigation

Supplement 1 to Affadavit

He notes (after Cincinnati Enquirer mediation talks failed and lawsuit suit restarted) he released the redacted final autopsy reports to the news media

Up next, is the Affadavit for the BCI Special Agent from Pike County. Anyone want to help with summarizing these Affadavits? There are several. TIA

Click to expand...

One question for those from or around Pike County, Is it possible that Dr Kessler knew Dana or Hannah through Piketon Nursing Home which he is the Medical director? If so is this why all the empathy with surviving family in releasing autopsies?

Notes of Affadavit of Michael Trout, Special Agent BCI

There's a lot in here, including Supplements that include his notes, with colored markings relating to the various wounds in the final autopsies of victims.

Public is aware the victims died from gunshot wounds but they're not aware of the nature of the wounds, which could reveal the type of weapon used. He marks in red the redacted boxes that have information about the nature of wounds.

The public doesn't know what, if any evidence was collected, so he marks those blank boxes with green to show the redacted areas include info about crime scene evidence.

In exhibit B, he marks redacted boxes in blue to indicate which ones contain information about time of death. If that time occurred between 3 and 4 am, and the perp knows the cops know that, he will make sure to have an alibi that covers 3 to 4 am (IMO, we can assume the perps already know that LE has figured that out and will have coordinated their alibis accordingly)

They feel TOD also reveals the sequence in which each victim was killed and LE considers that extremely valuable information they don't want to reveal

Exhibit B has marked redacted boxes in black to indicate other misc.evidence that is important to keep secret to aid the investigation. It includes physical characteristics of victims not known to the public and location and positioning of the bodies, etc.

Information that was not redacted is information the public already knows or could surmise from the nature of the wounds victims received. Cause of death was revealed on death certificates.

Next is a big list of reasons why autopsy evidence should remain confidential for investigations, stuff here everyone knows.
There are more than 20 BCI agents assigned to this case and one full time Pike Co SO employee. (Doesn't say if BCI agents are working full time on this investigation)

A lot of tips were submitted that were not based on tipster's personal knowledge. Some information has been leaked.

He says he has worked on a "large" number of homicide investigations and has never seen one where the autopsy information was released.

Following are the Exhibits. Check out Exhibit B, which has the colored boxes. The black boxes surround the redacted items that seem the most irrelevant (IMO) eg regarding a scab someone has from an injury well before the murder, etc.

JMO, MOO

RAISINISBACK said:

One question for those from or around Pike County, Is it possible that Dr Kessler knew Dana or Hannah through Piketon Nursing Home which he is the Medical director? If so is this why all the empathy with surviving family in releasing autopsies?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's possible that he knew some of them, but no, the reason stated in his Affadavit is to protect the evidence for LE's crime investigation. He has stated it was BCI's call and they were the ones who determined what should be redacted.

His Affadavit also stated that it was Pike Co prosecutor Rob Junk's decision to refuse the media access to view the preliminary autopsy results when those were requested early in the investigation. From what he's said, Dr. Kessler gives the impression he is just following orders on this stuff, JMO. He defers the decision to others.

March 14 Affadavits - News media vs Pike Co Coroner (cont.)

The remainder of the file is a series of standard form Affadavits from a variety of prosecuting attorneys from small to mid size counties in Ohio (Clark, Coshocton, Portage, Butler, Warren) stating why the autopsy reports should not be released to the news media. None of these are from prosecutors in counties with large populations with more murder cases.

The last are affadavits from county coroners not involved in the case, who are also from small counties mostly in rural Ohio (Van Wert, Union) who say the ARs should not be released to the news media.

IIRC, there are 88 counties in the state of Ohio.

There is no affadavit from the Hamilton County ME who conducted the final autopsies for all the victims and, as near as I can tell, there is no affadavit from the other coroner who Dr. Kessler said was at the murder scenes and conducted preliminary investigations. That coroner, AFAIK has not been identified. May or may not be relevant.

All MOO, JMO, etc.

Betty P said:

Pike County coroner says it was legal advice that ruled the decision to redact the information in the Rhoden Family autopsies

http://www.dispatch.com/news/201703...dvice-not-families-led-to-redacting-autopsies



It was DeWine's office who made the decision to heavily redact the autopsy reports, not the surviving family members. He did so because he says its necessary to protect the investigation.

As much sympathy as the coroners may have had for the families, that's not usually how Ohio LE rolls.

Though we should assume it's happened, it would be interesting to know if the family did receive full information from the reports.

ETA: In looking at the other news reports stating the redaction decision was made on behalf of the families, does the Pike County coroner's deposition stating it was DeWine's decision indicate a divergence from the AG's opinion about this case?

Click to expand...

I cannot begin to remember which interview it was but they (LE) said " if the full reports were released it would jeopardize the case"....
Which, I personally do not believe.
Whomever killed the family knows what they did to these victims. How does it jeopardize the case...?? I don't get it.
Someone mentioned maybe these getting released might be a good thing. Perhaps details would frighten the killers friends or family. If I had a family member or friend who did something like this I would be scared to death of them!

Here is the link to the second news media case. It's Columbus Dispatch v Pike County Coroner

https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/Clerk/ecms/#/caseinfo/2016/1153

Evidence case files farther down the page dated March 14, 2017.

Will try to summarize later or someone else can try.

This case includes a deposition with Dr. Kessler, the Pike County Coroner

http://supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=816546.pdf

Flatbush said:

I cannot begin to remember which interview it was but they (LE) said " if the full reports were released it would jeopardize the case"....
Which, I personally do not believe.
Whomever killed the family knows what they did to these victims. How does it jeopardize the case...?? I don't get it.
Someone mentioned maybe these getting released might be a good thing. Perhaps details would frighten the killers friends or family. If I had a family member or friend who did something like this I would be scared to death of them!

Click to expand...

If the PCCO revealed the preliminary autopsy reports to the family members, then it doesn't seem likely they were the killers. Why would PCCO/PCSO give important investigative information to the killers? I doubt they would.

ETA: Just putting this in here: From the Affadavit of PCC Dr. Kessler, in his deposition linked above, he says the extra investigator was from Adams County, but he doesn't know his name.

More on Dr. Kessler, Pike Co Coroner's deposition with the attorney for Columbus Dispatch: Its understandable why it was so difficult to sort out who ordered and made the redactions to the AR's. Dr. Kessler's attorney fought hard to keep him from answering the questions about who decided what to redact.

Check the deposition starting at around page 13 onward. The attorney really didn't want the Doc to say who did the redactions.

Dr. Kessler does finally say he was presented with a set of the final autopsy reports with redactions for his approval. He said so over his attorney's objections. It almost sounds like Pike County Sheriff and DeWine's office gave the Dr. the redacted versions of the AR's by giving them to an attorney to deliver to the Dr. so he couldn't tell who did the redactions w/o violating attorney/client privilege. Tricky.

Recommend reading this deposition. It says a lot about how this case is being handled by LE.


http://supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=816546.pdf

I am reading it but it's so broken up by "objections" it's taking me forever. It's hard to make sense of. But VERY interesting.

evelezrn said:

I am reading it but it's so broken up by "objections" it's taking me forever. It's hard to make sense of. But VERY interesting.

Click to expand...

I know, it's hard to get through those. I just finished reading it. The attorney representing Dr. K who was making all the objections is one of AG DeWine's star attorneys in his office. His office is working pretty hard to keep Dr. K from revealing anything of substance. The other attorney representing the Columbus Dpatch was very good, too. He got a lot out of the doctor.

ETA: I can't understand why AG Dewine ' s office was working so hard to hide the fact that they and BC I did the redactions. It would have no effect on solving the case. What are they so worried about?

Also wondering what autopsy details the coroner gave the victims families. He didn't seem to want to say much about that. Also odd that he claims he has hardly talked to sheriff's deputies or BCI. Have a hard time understanding why he's protecting them or why they need it.

I am going to go in and read this, I say attempt as I am on a tablet, hope it does the job.

Flatbush said:

I am going to go in and read this, I say attempt as I am on a tablet, hope it does the job.

Click to expand...

Good luck! Hope you didn't go cross-eyed on the tablet. :gaah: Let us know what you think.

IMO, the big issues seemed to be

How much Dr. Kessler revealed to Rhoden/Gilley family members about the preliminary AR? He said he would have given them a copy if they asked for it. I wonder if he could still do that today? He also didn't make them sign any confidentiality agreement, he said that's not usually done, even in murder cases.

Who did the redactions to the final AR and why are they so concerned about admitting it?

Did LE have any influence over what was included in the AR?

Who was Dr. Kessler's legal counsel who delivered to him the redacted final AR? How long has DeWine's attorney been representing and advising Dr. K?

The Columbus Dispatch evidence packets all include a lot of Affadavits from various county coroners who do routinely provide copies of AR's to the news media and others.

JMO, MOO

Betty P said:

I know, it's hard to get through those. I just finished reading it. The attorney representing Dr. K who was making all the objections is one of AG DeWine's star attorneys in his office. His office is working pretty hard to keep Dr. K from revealing anything of substance. The other attorney representing the Columbus Dpatch was very good, too. He got a lot out of the doctor.

ETA: I can't understand why AG Dewine ' s office was working so hard to hide the fact that they and BC I did the redactions. It would have no effect on solving the case. What are they so worried about?

Also wondering what autopsy details the coroner gave the victims families. He didn't seem to want to say much about that. Also odd that he claims he has hardly talked to sheriff's deputies or BCI. Have a hard time understanding why he's protecting them or why they need it.

Click to expand...

AG Dewine was forced to back down in the Stubbleville case by media. Charlie Reader seems to have an ongoing hostile relationship with media. I think them not releasing then releasing redacted autopsies has more to do with that hostility to media than what is contained in the autopsies and it's effect on the investigation.

Dr Kessler said it is his decision whether to release the autopsies. But he was given heavily redacted autopsies by the AG's office to release. He sounds fed up with it all in that deposition and at times confused as to why he can't release them. At times he outright ignores his legal counsel and answers over her objections. He acts as though he doesn't see any earthly reason not to release them. As I understand it, anyone claiming even a remote kinship with any of the victims can get a copy of those autopsies that has not been redacted. Makes you wonder why news media just doesn't pay a relative to get them a copy.

I think this whole case and the resistance against releasing any information is simply a power struggle between AG Dewine and media and Charlie Reader has been pulled into that feud. The childish actions of Mike Dewine could very well be endangering this case and it may never be solved.
I think Dewine will lose this battle and be forced to release the autopsies as they are public record. I think that is why the first judge recused and why his son did also. They don't want their careers being connected with a losing court battle.

I wonder if any of us on here could request the autopsy reports of the Burgette, Newsome and Eapson cases.

Flatbush said:

I cannot begin to remember which interview it was but they (LE) said " if the full reports were released it would jeopardize the case"....
Which, I personally do not believe.
Whomever killed the family knows what they did to these victims. How does it jeopardize the case...?? I don't get it.
Someone mentioned maybe these getting released might be a good thing. Perhaps details would frighten the killers friends or family. If I had a family member or friend who did something like this I would be scared to death of them!

Click to expand...

There may be things in the autopsies that only the killer(s) would know. This allows them to weed out the spite tips, and the folks who confess, for some odd reason, when they did not commit the crime, and sometimes that little bit can make or break a confession and a case. If there is something in there that only the killer(s) would know and this is the case, then I'm for leaving that redacted, and/or keep them closed.