Could these be memorial trees and the families have added the sculptures (not sure what to call them).
_______________
Description
This extensive area of land was opened in September 2006 as an addition to the already well established Dovestone Memorial Forest, where many memorial trees are already planted and thriving.
I would like to know why David Lytton aka Neil Dovestone left his tube driving job on the London Underground around the time of the London Underground and bus bombings in London on the 7th of July, 2005. And he was a Muslim convert. At that time he did a runner to Pakistan. Then came back 10th December, 2015 from Lahore, Pakistan, to Heathrow, London. And was poisoned by strychnine on Saddleworth More, 12th December, 2015. I think he could have been connected to the four Luton Muslim terrorists. And he was bumpt orf.
I tried strongly to ignore this post after reading it first time but reading it second time it brings the same emotions all over again...
There are many ideas, theories but also pure and wild speculations on this boards but I found this post utterly irresponsible, ignorant, disturbing and disrespectful, especially as we are also joined here by deceased David's family member.
I have been near King Cross during 2005 bombings, helped evacuating 1000 people and checked them in nearby hotels as everything got shut down, all transport, even mobile networks, mass chaos, usually stoic Londoners crying on the streets, including me. Let me say none of those people near affected areas will ever forget it! I certainly won't.
To suggest dangerous idea pull out of thin air, based on absolutely nothing... just because someone worked at some point on London underground, might or might not be Muslim and lived as retired in sunny Pakistan...
Not all Muslims are terrorist, the same as not all Americans are mass shooters.
One saying I like to share - be careful what you think, as thoughts become words and words become actions...
Rant over.
Hi Pisces, I can find the story but where is the customary pic of him with his trowel? The stone would have to be carved beforehand so it was preplanned.
The pics are interesting, as is the stone and story of King of Tonga but they're not in the right area of where DL was found so I'm not sure the relevance here, on Davids thread.
I'm not sure how to upload a pic of a map but your pics show you were at Binns Green car park area which is to the north left of Doves reservoir.
DL was found the opposite direction, along Chew track near Chew reservoir which is south of Doves and to the east. Below Robs Rocks area.
'Mr Lytton's body was discovered at Chew track, near Chew Reservoir, Greenfield by a cyclist.'
I tried strongly to ignore this post after reading it first time but reading it second time it brings the same emotions all over again...
There are many ideas, theories but also pure and wild speculations on this boards but I found this post utterly irresponsible, ignorant, disturbing and disrespectful, especially as we are also joined here by deceased David's family member.
I have been near King Cross during 2005 bombings, helped evacuating 1000 people and checked them in nearby hotels as everything got shut down, all transport, even mobile networks, mass chaos, usually stoic Londoners crying on the streets, including me. Let me say none of those people near affected areas will ever forget it! I certainly won't.
To suggest dangerous idea pull out of thin air, based on absolutely nothing... just because someone worked at some point on London underground, might or might not be Muslim and lived as retired in sunny Pakistan...
Not all Muslims are terrorist, the same as not all Americans are mass shooters.
One saying I like to share - be careful what you think, as thoughts become words and words become actions...
Rant over.
I think the first line of Ed2s post holds some value. The original question of him being an underground driver then leaving around the time of the attack could be relevant. Personally I would be going down the route that this had a horrendous effect on David in so much as his work was so close to the tragedy.
This "Muslim convert" business being bandied about should rightly include MSM verification or it should be removed as, as part of an incendiary post, it in effect blames the victim of this tragic circumstance: "He brought it on himself." TOS?
It isn't being bandied about. One person joined to post what he/she did and has never posted since. Other posters have stated there's no facts behind the claim. Others have scrolled past and ignored.
I tried strongly to ignore this post after reading it first time but reading it second time it brings the same emotions all over again...
There are many ideas, theories but also pure and wild speculations on this boards but I found this post utterly irresponsible, ignorant, disturbing and disrespectful, especially as we are also joined here by deceased David's family member.
I have been near King Cross during 2005 bombings, helped evacuating 1000 people and checked them in nearby hotels as everything got shut down, all transport, even mobile networks, mass chaos, usually stoic Londoners crying on the streets, including me. Let me say none of those people near affected areas will ever forget it! I certainly won't.
To suggest dangerous idea pull out of thin air, based on absolutely nothing... just because someone worked at some point on London underground, might or might not be Muslim and lived as retired in sunny Pakistan...
Not all Muslims are terrorist, the same as not all Americans are mass shooters.
One saying I like to share - be careful what you think, as thoughts become words and words become actions...
Rant over.
Below are some YouTube video screencaps showing Saddleworth Moor after daylight hours. Might be of interest to those wondering how the place looks at late sunset, as well as between dusk & dawn during fair weather.
Cheeky Overnighter on Saddleworth Moor (Jun 2015) - Sunset @ 3:14 min
Riding at Night #TopTips(Mar 2016, 2:52 min)
Cyclists' headlamps + GoPro cam, showing gate at lower area of Saddleworth Moor, followed by walking/ cycling track
Night Ride in Saddleworth (Nov 2011, 5:28 min)
Cyclists' headlamps + GoPro cam, showing walking/ cycling track
Jolly Night Time Jaunt by Tameside Paranormal Researchers (19 Apr 2016, 37:45 min)
Car headlights + Nightvision cam, at lower area of Saddleworth Moor
Interestingly, the 2 guys (despite being local to the region) didn't seem to be aware of David Lytton's case. At one point in the video, they were asking (somebody/ nobody/ the air) if it was a child (read: victim of the Ian Brady-Myra Hindley case).
Just to add on, here is a visual of where David Lytton was found on the grass lay-by beside Chew Track, below Rob's Rocks (gritstone crag) & close to Indian's Head Summit (aka Wimberry Rocks, a long black gritstone crag).
The base image is a screencap from BBC News' interview with cyclist Stuart Crowther (apparently fitted with a GoPro cam for part of the footage), & I have added annotations highlighting features of interest.
To recall: David was lying on his back parallel to the tarmac track, with his head pointing towards the summit, his face skywards, arms crossed on chest & legs pointing downhill.
What's striking to me ...
1) David had to be in a lucid state of mind to consciously select that particular spot to lie down. It's like a motorcyclist stopping at a telephone booth, or under a flyover along a motorway.
2) Unless David was using his hands to feel his way around, he seemed able to see the spot where he chose to lie down. As such, either it was not totally dark (11 Dec 2015 before 5:00-5:16 pm; or 12 Dec 2015 after 6:47 am until he was found at ~10:40 am), or he had a torch which subsequently was not recovered.
3) With his final resting posture, was David trying to reconstruct himself as the eponymous recumbent "Indian" of Indian's Head Summit ?
See the descriptions of Indian's Head Summit at the bottom. Also, the cyclist Stuart Crowther did emphasize the following about David ...
@ 0:56 min (video)/ @ 3:56 min (podcast) He just looked at peace.
@ 1:21 min (video) / @ 4:22 min (podcast) He just looked like he were having a rest.
Ref: Aforementioned BBC News video (22 Jun 2016)
Ref: 'Body on the Moor' Podcast Episode 1 (BBC Radio 4 World At One - 07 Jun 2016)
Wimberry [Rocks/Stones] is certainly a venue I hold quite dear even though it's gaining repute as one of the greenest venues anywhere. [...] As a wee youth, the black gritstone of colloquially dubbed "Indian's Head" (lying on his back looking skyward wearing a long feather) was pelt free, one could have roamed anywhere upon its flank without having to strip any green fur.
The jagged rocky skyline of Wimberry Stones, to the south of Dove Stone Reservoir, is created by a group of small crags that are known locally as "The Indian's Head" due to their resemblance to an Indian's face that is looking upwards.
I recently chanced upon a British short film that bears some coincidental resemblances to David Lytton's final hours at Saddleworth Moor. I wonder if David might have seen the film at a film fest, or perhaps online at Vimeo ?
The film is called 'The Man on the Moor' directed by Steven Rosam, & written by Peter Ward & Steven Rosam based on an original story by Peter Ward. It was shot on location at the moorland of Dartmoor National Park. First released in 2013 on the film festival circuit, the full film was published at Vimeo on 06 Jun 2013 & 21 Oct 2015, as well as at YouTube on 24 May 2016.
THE MAN ON THE MOOR (13:32 min): YouTube , vimeo.com/67794269 , vimeo.com/143140952
The film could possibly shed some light on the questions of "Why ?" & "Why there ?" -- or as least for the David in the film. Yes, the protagonist walking on the moor is called David too.
NB: The actor Richard Keith Johnson who played the other main character (an old man lying on the ground at the moor) passed away at age 87 in Chelsea, London on 05 Jun 2015 -- 6 months 6 or 7 days (= 189 or 190 days) before David Lytton @ David Keith Lautenberg passed away at the age of 67 on 11 Dec night or 12 Dec morning, 2015.
The judges responded to the odd encounter between a man going for a walk into his own personal wilderness and an old fellow lying on the ground, who gives him some parting words of wisdom.
A dying man finds peace...
Wandering along the moors in a daze, David stumbles across an injured elderly farmer and tries to help him. He's unable to save him, but in the process David learns to accept his own death and is finally able to say goodbye to his beloved daughter.
Below are some screenshots that I took of the film ...
1) For the curious, see the spoiler section below for my summary ...
The film opens with 20 secs of black screen accompanied only by music. In my mind, I thought of Shakespeare's Hamlet ... "To sleep, perchance to dream ay, there's the rub, for in that sleep of death what dreams may come".
After that, the protagonist, David Turner (Edward Tudor-Pole), a middle-aged man about late 50s to early 60s, is shown walking (aimlessly ?) amongst the desolate moors, whilst totally not dressed for the occasion. (He is wearing a suit & slip-on shoes.)
David then comes upon an elderly man named Joe Adams (Richard Keith Johnson) lying on the grass verge beside a tarmac track. The two have a conversation whilst waiting for the (imaginary ?) ambulance to arrive.
As it turns out, the whole event takes place in David Turner's mind, while he is in a terminal state in a hospital. Only after he has laid down his earthly burden(s) does he feel able to depart from this realm.
The film concludes with sunset & twilight falling on the moor, juxtaposed against Richard Keith Johnson ("Joe")'s narration of Shakespeare's Sonnet 65, which expounds upon the "ravages of time on both love and life" (Shakespeare-Online.com), or more specifically, how "many things are powerful, but nothing remains in this universe forever [...] Mortality rules over the universe and everything is perishable in this world." (Wikipedia).
2) And in the spoiler section below, I quote the conversation between David & the old man lying on the ground at the moor. It tells us why the film's David is up on the moor.
The said conversation ends with the old man advising, "It's the same with death, David. You have to accept it ... not fight it. That's the way ... you'll find peace." -- which brings to my mind David Lytton's choice of final resting spot & posture, as well as cyclist Stuart Crowther's description of David mentioned in my previous post.
THE MAN ON THE MOOR (2013)
David Turner (Edward Tudor-Pole):
Look, just tell me where we are. They need to know.
Joe Adams (Richard Johnson):
What's your... name, lad ?
David Turner:
Well, I'm David. What's yours ?
Joe Adams:
Joe.
David Turner:
Where's the nearest village, Joe ?
Joe Adams:
What are you doing up here ?
David Turner:
Oh please, it's important !
Joe Adams:
No, tell... tell me. What are you doing up here ?
David Turner:
It's important ! You need help !
Joe Adams: [stares at David expectantly]
David Turner:
I just wanted to walk ... take a walk. I needed to think something through.
Joe Adams:
Oh oh yeah, well. Hah ... Up here, that's the best place to think. Clear ... pure. Aye, that's the wind. The wind blows all our rubbish out of here.
David Turner: [gazes silently at Joe]
Joe Adams:
What ? Take a deep breath of it.
David Turner: [looks around to see if emergency help has arrived]
Joe Adams:
Work it out yet ?
David Turner:
What?
Joe Adams:
Your problem.
David Turner:
It's not that kind of a problem. [starts wheezing heavily]
Joe Adams:
Oh... oh well, my wee lad, you sound worse than me.
David Turner:
I'm... I'm fine, I'm fine !
Joe Adams:
And now you're gonna ... more problems it is ... you started with. That's what you get for being a Good Samaritan. Well, don't you worry, there's no problem ... that can't be sorted out.
David Turner:
I wish you were right.
Joe Adams:
I'm right. Look at me, not a care in the world. Oh ... argh ... [groans in pain] I cannot un ... ah argh ...
David Turner:
Stay with me, Joe.
Joe Adams:
Where would I go ? I was ... I was born up here. Thereby lie my father, my grandfather. I've grown up up here. I'm going to die up here.
David Turner:
Shhh ... You're not going to die.
Joe Adams:
You've got somebody, David ?
David Turner:
A daughter.
Joe Adams:
What's she doing ?
David Turner:
Worries about me.
Joe Adams:
Hah. You're sure it's not you worrying about her, huh ? Here, hold my hand, David.
David Turner: [clasps Joe's hand in his own]
Joe Adams:
That's a comfort. She will be alright. I ... promise you. You see that dog over there? Her great grandfather brought in the sheep for my father. And her pop's pops will be sheepdogs. And I'll always be the shepherd.
You see, there're some things that don't change. Like the wind up here. It has always blown, and it always will. But you have to bend with it, or it will blow you away. It's the same with death, David. You have to accept it ... not fight it. That's the way ... you'll find peace.
I recently chanced upon a British short film that bears some coincidental resemblances to David Lytton's final hours at Saddleworth Moor. I wonder if David might have seen the film at a film fest, or perhaps online at Vimeo ?
The film is called 'The Man on the Moor' directed by Steven Rosam, & written by Peter Ward & Steven Rosam based on an original story by Peter Ward. It was shot on location at the moorland of Dartmoor National Park. First released in 2013 on the film festival circuit, the full film was published at Vimeo on 06 Jun 2013 & 21 Oct 2015, as well as at YouTube on 24 May 2016.
THE MAN ON THE MOOR (13:32 min): YouTube , vimeo.com/67794269 , vimeo.com/143140952
The film could possibly shed some light on the questions of "Why ?" & "Why there ?" -- or as least for the David in the film. Yes, the protagonist walking on the moor is called David too.
NB: The actor Richard Keith Johnson who played the other main character (an old man lying on the ground at the moor) passed away at age 87 in Chelsea, London on 05 Jun 2015 -- 6 months 6 or 7 days (= 189 or 190 days) before David Lytton @ David Keith Lautenberg passed away at the age of 67 on 11 Dec night or 12 Dec morning, 2015.
Film synopses ...
Below are some screenshots that I took of the film ...
1) For the curious, see the spoiler section below for my summary ...
The film opens with 20 secs of black screen accompanied only by music. In my mind, I thought of Shakespeare's Hamlet ... "To sleep, perchance to dream ay, there's the rub, for in that sleep of death what dreams may come".
After that, the protagonist, David Turner (Edward Tudor-Pole), a middle-aged man about late 50s to early 60s, is shown walking (aimlessly ?) amongst the desolate moors, whilst totally not dressed for the occasion. (He is wearing a suit & slip-on shoes.)
David then comes upon an elderly man named Joe Adams (Richard Keith Johnson) lying on the grass verge beside a tarmac track. The two have a conversation whilst waiting for the (imaginary ?) ambulance to arrive.
As it turns out, the whole event takes place in David Turner's mind, while he is in a terminal state in a hospital. Only after he has laid down his earthly burden(s) does he feel able to depart from this realm.
The film concludes with sunset & twilight falling on the moor, juxtaposed against Richard Keith Johnson ("Joe")'s narration of Shakespeare's Sonnet 65, which expounds upon the "ravages of time on both love and life" (Shakespeare-Online.com), or more specifically, how "many things are powerful, but nothing remains in this universe forever [...] Mortality rules over the universe and everything is perishable in this world." (Wikipedia).
2) And in the spoiler section below, I quote the conversation between David & the old man lying on the ground at the moor. It tells us why the film's David is up on the moor.
The said conversation ends with the old man advising, "It's the same with death, David. You have to accept it ... not fight it. That's the way ... you'll find peace." -- which brings to my mind David Lytton's choice of final resting spot & posture, as well as cyclist Stuart Crowther's description of David mentioned in my previous post.
THE MAN ON THE MOOR (2013)
David Turner (Edward Tudor-Pole):
Look, just tell me where we are. They need to know.
Joe Adams (Richard Johnson):
What's your... name, lad ?
David Turner:
Well, I'm David. What's yours ?
Joe Adams:
Joe.
David Turner:
Where's the nearest village, Joe ?
Joe Adams:
What are you doing up here ?
David Turner:
Oh please, it's important !
Joe Adams:
No, tell... tell me. What are you doing up here ?
David Turner:
It's important ! You need help !
Joe Adams: [stares at David expectantly]
David Turner:
I just wanted to walk ... take a walk. I needed to think something through.
Joe Adams:
Oh oh yeah, well. Hah ... Up here, that's the best place to think. Clear ... pure. Aye, that's the wind. The wind blows all our rubbish out of here.
David Turner: [gazes silently at Joe]
Joe Adams:
What ? Take a deep breath of it.
David Turner: [looks around to see if emergency help has arrived]
Joe Adams:
Work it out yet ?
David Turner:
What?
Joe Adams:
Your problem.
David Turner:
It's not that kind of a problem. [starts wheezing heavily]
Joe Adams:
Oh... oh well, my wee lad, you sound worse than me.
David Turner:
I'm... I'm fine, I'm fine !
Joe Adams:
And now you're gonna ... more problems it is ... you started with. That's what you get for being a Good Samaritan. Well, don't you worry, there's no problem ... that can't be sorted out.
David Turner:
I wish you were right.
Joe Adams:
I'm right. Look at me, not a care in the world. Oh ... argh ... [groans in pain] I cannot un ... ah argh ...
David Turner:
Stay with me, Joe.
Joe Adams:
Where would I go ? I was ... I was born up here. Thereby lie my father, my grandfather. I've grown up up here. I'm going to die up here.
David Turner:
Shhh ... You're not going to die.
Joe Adams:
You've got somebody, David ?
David Turner:
A daughter.
Joe Adams:
What's she doing ?
David Turner:
Worries about me.
Joe Adams:
Hah. You're sure it's not you worrying about her, huh ? Here, hold my hand, David.
David Turner: [clasps Joe's hand in his own]
Joe Adams:
That's a comfort. She will be alright. I ... promise you. You see that dog over there? Her great grandfather brought in the sheep for my father. And her pop's pops will be sheepdogs. And I'll always be the shepherd.
You see, there're some things that don't change. Like the wind up here. It has always blown, and it always will. But you have to bend with it, or it will blow you away. It's the same with death, David. You have to accept it ... not fight it. That's the way ... you'll find peace.
If the short film had been made and the book been written after David Lytton's life had ended I'd most definitely think they were based on him.
Too much of a coincidence to think that DL was not aware of the two.
[h=1]What a TTC worker said to a man on subway tracks to bring him back from the brink[/h]
[h=3]'I will be your mentor,' John Paul Attard said to the man, an incident one expert says could help others[/h] By Shanifa Nasser, CBC News Posted: May 02, 2017
Attard asked the man on the tracks: '"Are you having a bad day?"' (CBC)
"I said to him, 'Are you having a bad day?'" Attard said. "He says, 'Yes, I want to hurt myself.' That's when I just kind of embraced him and hugged him."
[h=2]Around 15 people killed each year[/h] "Let me hold you," Attard said. They began to talk and the conversation spanned from the future to hip hop music and what the future holds.
[h=2]Tragedy 'extends beyond the individual'[/h] Earlier this year, spokesperson Brad Ross acknowledged suicides were also linked to absenteeism within the agency — especially among subway operators.
Green agrees. "The tragedy of someone losing their life or being severely and permanently injured extends beyond the individual and his or her family. The train crew, witnesses and other TTC personnel involved in suicide incidents face possible life-altering post-traumatic stress disorder." That's something Attard, who says he grapples every day with his own mental illness, has seen first-hand. Attard says he has lost three fellow TTC employees to suicide over his 24-year career with the agency. Green declined to disclose the number of employees who have died from suicide and would not comment on how job stress might contribute to such cases.
Over the course of those 20 minutes on the track, Attard says he could eventually see light in the face of the man he had met in distress.
[h=2]Moment was 'life-changing'[/h] "I put my hands on his temples and had him repeat, 'I am strong, I am strong.'"
In an unforgettable moment, he asked others to join in. Soon, virtually everyone on the north and southbound platforms could be heard repeating the phrase in one resounding voice.
"From generic to particular / Is a shared trip" indeed: "Sighting, perforce, ourselves in every clue" is a telling summary of what it is we do achieve -- a recognition of ourselves in another's fate.
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