GUILTY AZ - Madeline 'Maddie' Jones, 19 & William Jones-Gouchenour, 9 mos, found safe, Mesa, 15 Jun 2017

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no idea and I cant really comment much more because it is based on comments and we cant discuss them here.

msphilosopher said:
This is a tough one.

Who's side do you believe?

I guess I'm looking forward to proof regarding:

1. HER unstable behavior claimed by ex husband
2. HER mental health claimed by ex
<modsnip>

Did she leave out of spite because she doesn't want him involved in his life? Or did she leave because the child is better off / safe without father's involvement? Or was she and/or baby harmed?

This is a tough one. Not quite sure what I think yet.
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Both sides of this coin that we can read about have an agenda. Both are probably embellishing at least some, and one is completely - we just don't know which.

Let's just come out with it. Do you think she committed suicide? Do you think she would make her son suffer in the heat until she got to the right spot or got the nerve? I personally do not feel she did that. I think she is hiding and is safe and comfortable. And I think she has a damn good reason. However, she won't be able to for much longer, and the longer she goes the greater the damage and potential to never see her son again. She needs to get smart right now and get this over with before there is no chance to recover from it. Before permanent residency by the other party is out of this country.
 
GigTu said:
Both sides of this coin that we can read about have an agenda. Both are probably embellishing at least some, and one is completely - we just don't know which.

Let's just come out with it. Do you think she committed suicide? Do you think she would make her son suffer in the heat until she got to the right spot or got the nerve? I personally do not feel she did that. I think she is hiding and is safe and comfortable. And I think she has a damn good reason. However, she won't be able to for much longer, and the longer she goes the greater the damage and potential to never see her son again. She needs to get smart right now and get this over with before there is no chance to recover from it. Before permanent residency by the other party is out of this country.
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Yes to all of this! I think she is somewhere safe but is making poor decisions that will affect her custody of her son.<modsnip> Ugh, this case is just driving me nuts.


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I feel that in her panic and grieved state of mind after dealing with a divorce and extremely contentious relationships, and the judge not granting in her favor (in her estimation), she very well may have decided that her ex can't have him at all. How she would accomplish that, I don't know. But my gut instinct has been self harm. I'm not afraid to be in the minority and I'm not afraid to be wrong. But I will always give my honest opinion here on WS.
 
missgulfsouth said:
I feel that in her panic and grieved state of mind after dealing with a divorce and extremely contentious relationships, and the judge not granting in her favor (in her estimation), she very well may have decided that her ex can't have him at all. How she would accomplish that, I don't know. But my gut instinct has been self harm. I'm not afraid to be in the minority and I'm not afraid to be wrong. But I will always give my honest opinion here on WS.
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It's certainly one of three main possibilities. The other two are she is hiding, or she was taken. imo
 
missgulfsouth said:
I feel that in her panic and grieved state of mind after dealing with a divorce and extremely contentious relationships, and the judge not granting in her favor (in her estimation), she very well may have decided that her ex can't have him at all. How she would accomplish that, I don't know. But my gut instinct has been self harm. I'm not afraid to be in the minority and I'm not afraid to be wrong. But I will always give my honest opinion here on WS.
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All opinions welcomed!
 
ellbee said:
Let's think about this though - if a woman is upset or overreacts to any situation, a defensive man will usually claim she has mental health issues. And hell, maybe she does. I do. It doesn't prevent me from having a professional job or raising my children but they do exist nonetheless. To accuse someone of mental issues is common and easy. But the accusations that her mother made - could she really just fictionally come up with ALL OF THAT? What if she's exaggerating but it stems from real events? I'm really convinced that MJ was abused, either mentally or physically


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I agree with all of this. That's why it's hard to know which way to lean here. She could have left on her own or she could've been harmed. There is so much information on the mother's side that I find it hard to believe all of it is lies.
 
It may be as simple as she is confused about what is best. She is 19, with little experience to measure against. I just want her and that baby to be okay. The legalities can be worked through.
 
AzPistonsGirl said:
we also have women here who are sorta like an "underground railroad" (perhaps this is what you are referring to and I am just dense) - former LDS and subsects, helping others who want out of those communities. I still don't sense that is what is going on here but we have to consider everything.
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LDS members have a great support system. There was a case here in Oregon when a young woman was taken by gunpoint and killed by a guy in her complex who was obsessed with her (Whitney Heichel).LDS organized search parties very thoroughly/quickly and found her body quickly. Any theory should be considered
 
I'm hoping they're just in hiding. Too many children dying at the hands of their parents.
 
GigTu said:
Both sides of this coin that we can read about have an agenda. Both are probably embellishing at least some, and one is completely - we just don't know which.

Let's just come out with it. Do you think she committed suicide? Do you think she would make her son suffer in the heat until she got to the right spot or got the nerve? I personally do not feel she did that. I think she is hiding and is safe and comfortable. And I think she has a damn good reason. However, she won't be able to for much longer, and the longer she goes the greater the damage and potential to never see her son again. She needs to get smart right now and get this over with before there is no chance to recover from it. Before permanent residency by the other party is out of this country.
Click to expand...

There is a third possibility. I'm not accusing anyone, but we've seen women disappear before only to be found to be the victims of homicide.
 
Let's just come out with it. Do you think she committed suicide? Do you think she would make her son suffer in the heat until she got to the right spot or got the nerve? I personally do not feel she did that. I think she is hiding and is safe and comfortable. And I think she has a damn good reason. However, she won't be able to for much longer, and the longer she goes the greater the damage and potential to never see her son again. She needs to get smart right now and get this over with before there is no chance to recover from it. Before permanent residency by the other party is out of this country. ]
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I agree. I think she is hiding comfortably with help. I don't know how much LE is working on this case. I have not seen any news networks mention this for a few days. No Amber Alert. Really nothing much. I hope that the baby is the main concern for everyone involved.
 
GigTu said:
Both sides of this coin that we can read about have an agenda. Both are probably embellishing at least some, and one is completely - we just don't know which.

Let's just come out with it. Do you think she committed suicide? Do you think she would make her son suffer in the heat until she got to the right spot or got the nerve? I personally do not feel she did that. I think she is hiding and is safe and comfortable. And I think she has a damn good reason. However, she won't be able to for much longer, and the longer she goes the greater the damage and potential to never see her son again. She needs to get smart right now and get this over with before there is no chance to recover from it. Before permanent residency by the other party is out of this country.
Click to expand...
I think distance does play some role in this. The husband lives in Montana so when the father and his mother (paternal grandmother) were going to be picking up the child I expect that it would have been for some duration that would include returning to Montana with the child.

My working theory is that she is hiding with her son via a network of friends. I have been working the angle that it might be friends that have left LDS as there are two of them that have that have shown up in SM that seem pretty "invested" in this situation. It seems that there are some reasonably deep pockets involved so it is very possible to remain hidden out for quite a long time and she could very well be out of state.
 
doodles1211 said:
I agree. I think she is hiding comfortably with help. I don't know how much LE is working on this case. I have not seen any news networks mention this for a few days. No Amber Alert. Really nothing much. I hope that the baby is the main concern for everyone involved.
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I think that if this had been the other way around and it was the father missing with the child there would have been an Amber Alert out almost immediately.
 
I am assuming LE does not believe William is in danger.

Arizona AMBER Alert Plan Requirements

The Arizona AMBER Alert Plan requires law enforcement to meet the following criteria when evaluating a child abduction. Law Enforcement Agencies must have all the items listed below before activation can occur. The guidelines are as follows:

An abduction of a child (under 18) has occurred.
The abduction process poses a credible threat of immediate danger of serious bodily injury of death to the child.
A law enforcement agency has determined that the child is not a runaway and has not been abducted as a result of a child custody dispute, unless the dispute poses a credible and or specific threat of serious bodily harm or death to the child.

https://www.azdps.gov/safety/alerts/amber
 
perfectingpink said:
I am assuming LE does not believe William is in danger.

Arizona AMBER Alert Plan Requirements

The Arizona AMBER Alert Plan requires law enforcement to meet the following criteria when evaluating a child abduction. Law Enforcement Agencies must have all the items listed below before activation can occur. The guidelines are as follows:

An abduction of a child (under 18) has occurred.
The abduction process poses a credible threat of immediate danger of serious bodily injury of death to the child.
A law enforcement agency has determined that the child is not a runaway and has not been abducted as a result of a child custody dispute, unless the dispute poses a credible and or specific threat of serious bodily harm or death to the child.

https://www.azdps.gov/safety/alerts/amber
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The judge's order for emergency custody on June 19th has a finding that "The minor child is being illegally and unlawfully held by Madeline Jones and he is immediately likely to suffer physical injury or be removed from Arizona."

http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/warrant-issued-for-missing-mother-in-mesa/450432309
 
Jethro4WS said:
The judge's order for emergency custody on June 19th has a finding that "The minor child is being illegally and unlawfully held by Madeline Jones and he is immediately likely to suffer physical injury or be removed from Arizona."

http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/warrant-issued-for-missing-mother-in-mesa/450432309
Click to expand...

There was another case on WS where a judge wanted an Amber Alert, but LE did not believe it fit the criteria. Does anyone remember that one?
 
It appears she is a very smart girl who excelled in school and who is far advanced for her 18 years.

Just because she was a scholarly person, does not mean she was a socially wise girl who had done much dating through school before marriage. I think knowing the back story of why her parents gave her permission to marry at 18 would be a big step in understanding what is actually going on in this relationship.

<modsnip> Is Madeline's family Mormon too? There could be a huge difference in the way each child was brought up if both families are not Mormon.

<modsnip>

Hoping for a safe return of both of them. <modsnip>
 
1&2&3 said:
It appears she is a very smart girl who excelled in school and who is far advanced for her 18 years.

Just because she was a scholarly person, does not mean she was a socially wise girl who had done much dating through school before marriage. I think knowing the back story of why her parents gave her permission to marry at 18 would be a big step in understanding what is actually going on in this relationship.

<modsnip> Is Madeline's family Mormon too? There could be a huge difference in the way each child was brought up if both families are not Mormon.

<modsnip>

Hoping for a safe return of both of them. <modsnip>.
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As a rule, I tend to stay far away from cases involving non-custodial parental abductions. Mostly because there is so much back and forth, he said / she said, half truths and drama. I can't stand it, so I avoid these cases for those reasons. It takes two imperfect people each contributing 100% to make marriage work. For me personally, I don't care how or why or when it fell apart. I don't want sordid details and other people's dirty laundry thrown out there. It's not my business. She isn't an angel and he isn't a saint. But they BOTH gave life to a child and it is wrong to deprive a parent of their rights. Only a court and a judge can do that. Interfering with the process is not okay. That baby deserves his daddy just as much as his mommy and all of his grandparents. Nobody's family is perfect, but they are all little William's family. I'll see this case through to the end because I'm invested in the outcome now, but these types of cases leave me shaking my head every darned time.
 
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