Let's Follow the Evidence...OR the Lack of It

1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after,
2 because they came fairly early.

3 MIKE KANE: Was it long after?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember

5 specifically. The best I can do is, it was, I

6 believe, after the police came. Because they had

7 gone through the house before I figured out what

8 I'm going to do.

Click to expand...

Yeah that's a doozy alright.

TOM HANEY: So you're here at the
20 base of the stairs?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 TOM HANEY: You scream for John?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
24 audible response).
25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly
0041
1 what words you used, was it more than just John
2 or--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice
4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",
5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,
6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he
7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a
8 horrible thing.

Click to expand...

Just awful.

100% pure incompetence to not call her out on this statement.

20 So when I first found her I was like,
21 (Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to
22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a
23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got
24 a little shape like.
25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?
0169
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.
2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and
3 put the blanket over her

Click to expand...

Jesus....he's accidentally admitting that he placed that blanket over her before he brought her body upstairs....which means the blanket wasn't originally there.

TT: Okay. You yelled for John. John comes down. Okay, what happened, where did John read the note at when he read it?
PR: Downstairs.
TT: Okay. Where, where was . . .
PR: Down, down in the, you know, on, not, not in the laundry room area, but down. I said there’s a note down there.
TT: Okay. Down towards the butler’s kitchen in that area?
PR: No, not all the way down there. On the wooden floor . . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .right there by the TV room.

Click to expand...

The note that levitates. It magically moves where it needs to be depending on the discussion.

They both needed to be placed in handcuffs after making such statements.

THis statement really bothers me....

TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what
symptoms you experience as a result of that.

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.

TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include anything like nightmares?

PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.

TOM HANEY: About?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing Jonbenet scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this.

Click to expand...

I think FW saw something on his first trip to the basement that was different when he & JR "found" JB. Either something that was there and then gone, or something that wasn't there and then was there later. I have no idea what, but something was different and FW knew JR had to have been the one to do it.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

DeDee said:

:bump:

This thread is too good not to read at least once. What's interesting is that when you follow the evidence, all roads lead to RDI. This thread includes fibs and lies told by the Rs.

Click to expand...

I forget the exact wording but we can't forget JR slipped and said things were hectic at 2 am or 3 am.

singularity said:

and I have flashbacks of hearing Jonbenet scream.

Click to expand...

It is troubling. But I'm not surprised. If you believe LHP she did bring that up.

You forget that I saw you take here there so many times before, shutting the door tightly behind you, so her screams could not be heard. Except this time there was "an accident," wasn't there?

Click to expand...

Ambitioned said:

It is troubling. But I'm not surprised. If you believe LHP she did bring that up.

Click to expand...

Or Patsy could be referring to JonBenet's scream from that night.

Oh he is a mess. He was down in the basement, saw a suitcase under a broken,open window as police are upstairs setting up a sting for her kidnappers and he just closes the window and doesn't mention it to anyone. Nah. Abnormal response. How do we know that he told no one? Because LE wasn't swarming the basement looking for clues.

He knew the window had no significance until Smit came up with his theory and then he tries to latch on to it. Nah.

2 areas of the basement were blocked, says JR. The train room and the WC. This is because they are both crimes scenes.

Photo credit: National Enquirer



Photo Credit: Forums for Justice

John stated during interrogations that the dark blue folded blanket usually covered the steel floor safe.
And, there's the chair with the most interesting box of Cigars...



Photo Credit: Bing Images; Original to National Enquirer



Are there two blankets in the WC?

singularity said:

Best thread title ever.

Now more than ever does the evidence need to be followed.

Since you just bumped it I've only read this last page but I noticed you quoted part of that great exchange where John screws up the time regarding the ransom note. I think it was another gotcha moment that flew over LE's heads. IMO he was remembering a previous ransom note/time schedule and made a mistake. I bet he was kicking himself when he realized what he did and then breathed a sigh of relief when they moved on from it.

Click to expand...

Isn't it a grand thread? You can watch the sleuths' eyes widen as the interrogations continue with nonsensical answers. The Ridiculous Rs ho hum around every image and detail. And none of LE calls them out on their Baloney.

Fleet had already done that, John.

What was your actual exchange with Fleet as you guys are down on the floor looking for glass?

Click to expand...

I imagine it's about at this point where FW goes, "Oh, &*(*&! The last people to be with them last night and the first people to be with this morning and JonBenet is dead. What is going on here, people?" FW probably realized that he would be one of the Fall Guys for the child's murder.

Broken again?!? Dear Lord....

Click to expand...

That cranky window again. Does anyone believe that John ever climbed in through that basement window after being locked out of the house without his keys?

That pesky suitcase.....the contents which are the elephant down in the hellhole.

Nobody wants to 'own' it.

Click to expand...

The suitcase with the blue duvet that had fibers found on JB in several places cannot be overlooked. Folks don't know what to do with it in their theory but the blue duvet cannot be excluded because of the fiber evidence found on JB.

Fairly cunning. He makes sure to say "we" instead of "I".

These people never should've been allowed in the home.

These people should've been immediately removed.

I don't think there can be any doubt. If its RDI(and obviously it is), he knows where she's located before LE arrives. IMO this is true no matter which Ramsey is responsible. He's the man of the house, the one with the bank account to help keep them all out of jail.....he's in the loop.

Cant find it in the transcripts ATM but there's a moment where Patsy describes them running up/down stairs. This is before LE arrive obviously and if John is running downstairs, he's not running everywhere but the room her body is in.

In the offchance he didn't know before LE arrived, he certainly knew when he went off the grid and later admitted he was down in the basement during this time. What's he doing down there, playing checkers? :floorlaugh:

< .... >
I wouldn't assume that. Fleet was the only person taking notes and its probably because some things weren't adding up and he was figuring out what was going on.

It was the dead of winter. I have a hard time believing they wouldn't get an old window break fixed.

The basement sequence makes no sense at all. IMO John is just making things up as he goes along. He also knows he's on the verge of exposing everything. He's aware that items in the basement have moved between the kidnapping phase and after her body was found....so he whips up Mr. phantom intruder man violating the laws of physics to move a chair. Even Smit of all people didn't buy this serving of hogwash.

Click to expand...

Remind please. What items were moved between the kidnapping phase and after JBs body was found in the WC? Didn't the kidnapping phase end when John found the body?

It wasn't right away....it took seven hours for this event [JR to find his daughter, JB] to occur. I also have a feeling his alarm bells were ringing the whole time.

Yeah Smit and John became a great tag team.

Click to expand...

Thankfully, the GJ didn't allow LSs presentation of the Impossible Intruder to hinder their job.

singularity said:

[Snip]
It was the dead of winter. I have a hard time believing they wouldn't get an old window break fixed.

Click to expand...

In a basement like this, the broken window wouldn't have been as noticeable as you think. It would get really noticeable at 10 degrees or below, but you'd have to be in the basement at the time. Boiler pipes of that age are run close to the basement ceiling. They're probably insulated with asbestos (the first bans of asbestos started in 1972). Even with the insulation, these pipes transfer heat. The basement with an operating boiler doesn't get that cold until the outdoor temperatures bottom out. At that time, you can feel each and every opening to the outside, but you'll have to go into the basement to notice it.

John is hedging about the broken window because he's uncertain if LE are able to tell if a window has been freshly broken or not. Once Lou Smit proffered his intruder theory, John was able to run with the broken window as the point of entry.

DeDee said:

Photo credit: National Enquirer

Photo Credit: Forums for Justice

John stated during interrogations that the dark blue folded blanket usually covered the steel floor safe.
And, there's the chair with the most interesting box of Cigars...

Photo Credit: Bing Images; Original to National Enquirer



Are there two blankets in the WC?

Click to expand...

Yes. There was a plaid blanket found in the wine cellar. CSI Everett was right.

Cottonstar said:

Yes. There was a plaid blanket found in the wine cellar. CSI Everett was right.

Click to expand...

Cottonstar,
Now why should there be blankets, of all things, in the wine-cellar? The wine-cellar was simply used as a repository of seldom needed items.

Consider how, days before Christmas, LHP and family moved all the Christmas stuff from the wine-cellar to upstairs.

So LHP and family had a good look at what was in the wine-cellar, e.g. blankets and any wrapped gifts.

Anyone think LHP and family might miss Christmas gifts in the wine-cellar, i.e. maybe query PR if she want them upstairs too?

JonBenet was likely never in the wine-cellar early the morning she was discovered. Fleet White took a look and never saw any blankets or JonBenet, e.g. black blankets not really visible, but white?

So the unanswered question is, if you are going to move JonBenet do you need a blanket, and why?

There is no fake crime-scene in the wine-cellar, nobody is suggesting she was actually killed in the wine-cellar, there is no weapon present, most of the forensic artifacts found on JonBenet were an arms length away, e.g. paintbrush, ligature cord, etc, at most the wrist restraints look fake?

JonBenet need not have been killed just outside the wine-cellar door. The circumstances might just fit the facts, e.g. urine soaked underwear, urine on the carpet, paintbrush shards close by?

Then there are the Partially Opened Gifts, why are they there , who put them there and why, i.e. they do not appear to be part of any apparent crime-scene?

What do we make of this:
James Kolar, Foreign Faction, Excerpt

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday.

Click to expand...

or this:
June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Schwartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

Click to expand...

But, guess what, John knew and long before James Kolar said Burke opened them or Patsy said:

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth

15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what
0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

Click to expand...

So which Ramsey actually opened the gifts, why do they need an explanation?

Looks more like a prior crime-scene, possibly in the basement, was rearranged with incriminating items being placed into the wine-cellar then at a later point in time JonBenet was added, thus explaining why Fleet White saw nothing when he looked into the wine-cellar?

i.e. the wine-cellar was just some place to hide stuff that might prompt difficult questions, and John possibly realized it might be more consistent if JonBenet was found in the wine-cellar and not some other remote location that would require him to explain, why he went and looked at the remote location, e.g. under the floor?

The cellar was never a place where Patsy stored gifts. It is a made up story to account for why the presents are in the cellar and at the death scene.

Snipped for focus, though my comment is general

DeDee said:

Remind please. What items were moved between the kidnapping phase and after JBs body was found in the WC? Didn't the kidnapping phase end when John found the body?

Click to expand...

And with all this activity, JR is not reported as having been obsessed with why the kidnappers hadn’t called. I’ve never read, in fact, that anyone in the house that day so much as mentioned it.

Great thread, agreed.

Cottonstar said:

The cellar was never a place where Patsy stored gifts. It is a made up story to account for why the presents are in the cellar and at the death scene.

Click to expand...

Cottonstar,
ITA.

Kolar thinks those gifts played a role in something that happened Christmas Day? If you add in no Christmas morning video or pictures, then I'm inclined to think he is onto something.

So were all the children's gifts wrapped in FAO-Schwarz-paper? The only other source for gifts that I am aware of is University Bicycles downtown Boulder, where, allegedly, Patsy purchased bikes for both JonBenet and Burke.

Also on Dr Phil we have Burke saying:

I remember peeking down and seeing an electric train. I was super excited, he recalled. I think she got a big doll house, we both got bikes.

Click to expand...

Yet Burke's bike seems to have vanished?


You have to wonder if BPD would have requested the Ramsey purhase records from FAO-Schwarz and Bloomingdale's just to match up what was found in the house, as they should match, i.e. they were opened the previous night?

BoldBear said:

In a basement like this, the broken window wouldn't have been as noticeable as you think. It would get really noticeable at 10 degrees or below, but you'd have to be in the basement at the time. Boiler pipes of that age are run close to the basement ceiling. They're probably insulated with asbestos (the first bans of asbestos started in 1972). Even with the insulation, these pipes transfer heat. The basement with an operating boiler doesn't get that cold until the outdoor temperatures bottom out. At that time, you can feel each and every opening to the outside, but you'll have to go into the basement to notice it.

Click to expand...

My opinion only: The Ramsey’s were slobs. I think if JR’s story about losing his key and letting himself in is true, he might have said something to PR about getting it fixed, which would have been within her purview as “mistress of the manor.” That she didn’t is consistent with how so much else about that household was left to the “help,” whom PR is on record as having derided for their incompetence, IIRC.

Great thread indeed!!! I have always had many questions about JR'S dissappeing and reappearing only to find JBR a little later. I have thought for quite some time he staged the basement off and on all morning. I cannot overlook the train room, the presents, and BR's later admission of going back downstairs that night to play with toys. There are way too many coincidences and confusing statements in this case. As well way too may contradictory statements made that seem to cobbarate evolving stories that began their evolution that fist morning. JR was obviously the leader in these statements and remember... PRs answers could have always been questioned or possibly thrown out because she was so out of it on medications to the point she appeared higher than a bats *advertiser censored* on TV.

BTW, great ideas with the role the chair may or may not have played. However, I have always assumed the undies and other key items exited the house with PR's sister.
FW probably did see that things were not adding up and distanced himself ASAP. Again he was in serious detective mode taking notes of everything he witnessed or thought important and then boom JR suddenly finds JBR in the very room he had already peered into. Would he not have noted that. As well as took mental notes of where items were and how they appeared. He got a whiff of some funky and stepped back and I agree he may have thought he was being set up to be the fall guy.

For instance, though there are several accounts of Patsy waking up and finding John in the shower, and then her getting up and getting ready for the day, going down to find the note, and eventually calling 911 about 25 minutes later, since that is only a Ramsey account that cannot be verified, except now by John, possibly Burke, we start instead with: