Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #5

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Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.
 
annemc2 said:
Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.
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You're absolutely right, I didn't even think of that. It seems to me the guy at the campground would have mentioned it if "Jock" had an accent but you never know. If he had been from Quebec he may have had a French accent perhaps. If he was born and raised there he would learn to speak French but when speaking English he would not have spoken it as if he was from France, with a heavy accent most likely. Many Canadians do have sort of an accent. For instance, words that have an "ou" that we pronounce as sounding like "ow", they say it more like "oa" Like out, would sound like oat. Maybe both of them talked like that and the KOA guy didn't necessarily think that sounded like a true accent. Excellent point though.

bykerladi - that was not the site I found earlier but it's a good site. I have a notion to e-mail them and explain about the missing couple and send the info from Charley Project or Doe Network and the Crime Library article to see if they have any matches in their database. It's worth a try if they can check it out. Thanks.
 
annemc2 said:
Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.
Click to expand...

The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.
 
KarlK said:
The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.
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You're right, Karl. That's exactly what I was trying to say in the post above yours but you said it much more eloquently. And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.
 
liz325 said:
And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.
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By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada? That's also my impression, based on the absence of a discernible accent and also his dental work. Apparently European dentistry can often be distinguished from dental work performed in US/Canada and the coroner's remarks in this case seem to indicate he thought the dental work had been done in North America.

I guess the only factor that goes against these individuals being from North America is the fact they were not reported missing or at least not that we know of. AFAIK the main missing persons databases in both the US and Canada are integrated due to geographical and cultural proximity, therefore someone reported missing in Canada would be listed as missing on US databases as well, and vice versa. The link provided by bykerladi is a good example of such seamless integration.

This particular case has received a lot of attention. If I recall well the first time I read about it was in a national publication (probably Reader's Digest if memory serves) in the late 1970's or early 1980's and since then it has been featured in the electronic media a number of times, enough to be more familiar than usual to most people. Yet despite this publicity, these two still remain Does after 30 years. Not a single serious lead has ever surfaced, it boggles the mind. I'm starting to think only a deathbed confession could ever solve it.
 
KarlK said:
By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada?
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Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.
 
Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.
 
bykerladi said:
Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.
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I agree, in fact that is what I thought all along. His father maybe believed from the day his son was born that he would follow in his footsteps and when he didn't he probably was so angry he literally disowned him. The father's pride and anger may have run so deep that he did consider his disowning him a permanent thing. If the father is alive he may still be waiting for his son to back down and make the first move, as ridiculous as that sounds after nearly 31 years. Unfortunately, it probably happens more than we know, relationships that are shattered forever because of pride and anger, one or the other party refusing to back down and make the first move. I also thought that possibly he was his only son or maybe even his only child which would make him all the more angry at his refusal to pursue a career in medicine. It's very sad.
 
liz325 said:
Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.
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Quebec remains a good candidate for the man's home, "Jacques" pronounced with a Quebec accent would indeed sound exactly like "Jock" in English. As for the girl however I agree that her unshaven legs seem to indicate she was neither from Canada nor the US. I remember that at the time the only women who would walk around with visible hairy legs in North America tended to belong to the hippie persuasion and the young woman's clothes and general appearance doesn't point to a hippie lifestyle. I'm no expert but her jewelry evokes Central or South America to me for some reason.

Anyway, it is my impression that there is a strong possibility that these two had not known each other for long (if at all) and that we may be dealing with two missing individuals rather than a missing couple.

Another possibility, but I admit it's a long shot, would be that they were held captive for some time prior to being killed, which also provides an explanation for unshaven legs. But their clean clothes and the fact that the man had obviously had access to shaving gear makes this unlikely.
 
I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly
 
LButler said:
I think she is more likely to be listed as missing than him - don't really know why I think that. So, I looked for women in several states that her jewelry seems to be more common.

The only thing I found was Lynn Ruth Connes from CA. Missing since May 20, 1976. Here's her link:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/827dfca.html

There is mention of a silver ring with etching. Jane Doe had a 3rd ring that was not pictured.

Also, she was meeting a guy named Jeff who oddly matches the first initial in John Doe's ring?

Maybe this is someone she met and was planning to leave with so she lied to her family.

As to the unshaven legs, I wonder if it looked as though they had never been shaved or just not shaved in a while. And, as posted earlier, this was probably not that uncommon here in the US during the 70's.
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This is my earlier post about her (under my old username). I still think she fits fairly well.

Does anyone know if they have checked out any missing people against either one?

the Connes story also reminds me of the recent info about the photographer/serial killer guy. Don't remember the name and no time to look it up at the moment. Anyway, she was supposedly meeting a photographer when she came up missing.??

Here's here link with the .org fixed.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/827dfca.html

Maybe this john doe was a photographer and she decided to take off with him. If he was well to do and had a nice camera, maybe the killer took it. Stretching, I know, but there could be a thousand stories for these two.
 
azure said:
I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly
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Hmmm, that's another one of those instances where the details really do mean a lot. Did she simply have stubble from being on the road, or was the hair on her legs long and soft, without signs of regular shaving? I know it would take quite awhile for my leg hair to grow out - after it gets to a certain point it gets kinda gross to me and I have to shave it! But your point is valid - even if the hair on her legs was long it could have been from her spending lots of time on the road. But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).
 
annemc2 said:
But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).
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That was my impression because they didn't say it appeared her legs had not been shaved for a while, just that they were unshaven. But one must keep in mind that a coroner's report doesn't always make that kind of distinction so without further details it's difficult to assess the importance of this detail. Personally I just thought it was odd because she was wearing a skirt; I would imagine that if she hadn't shaved simply because she was on a camping trip she would have worn pants. But I'm a guy so I could be totally off the mark about this. I remember that back in the 1970's (I was a teen then) many young women weren't as self-conscious about such details as they are now.
 
Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...Grant's"+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.
 
Sable said:
Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...Grant's"+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.
Click to expand...

Sable, good work on the Grant's Truck Stop photos. I couldn't find any photos for them when I Googled them, but that was about 2 years ago. Possibly the girl was from out west and met John Doe in New Mexico, Utah or Arizona and joined him on his travels from there??? I don't know though, it sort of struck me that she was with him from the beginning and when they were out west she loved the jewelry and bought the rings. It said she was wearing 3 rings that resembled American-Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. They don't look all that worn in the photograph on the Doe Network, they look pretty new to me. Even though the black ring is onyx it still looks similar to Indian jewelry with the 3 turquoise pieces on it.

I also went back to the missing Canadians website bykerladi provided in post #81 to search again but came up empty. Although it says Missing Children, there are a few people who were adults when they went missing that are listed on there.

Unfortunately, LisainWV is right in post #92 when she says there could be a thousand stories for these two.
 
Thank You for that link liz I hope something will come out of this, I live in S.C. and ride by that very area when visiting my daughter......
 
Great post Liz....
I'm curious to see if they are related or whatever they can find out.
Thanks!!
 
Here is another, slightly more in-depth article. There is video of the exhumation along with it. It will be interesting to see if they are actually related or not. I don't think they are but you never know. Just getting their identities from the DNA would be wonderful!

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572
 
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