Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

UKGuy · Feb 23, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
I believe the stagers had no way of knowing that a splinter was left inside the vagina. It was on the finger that snapped the paintbrush, and probably came off during the digital penetration. This splinter was found at autopsy, during dissection of the vagina. The coroner didn't just look inside and see it.
I think the urine stains on the long johns and underwear came from post-mortem release. The thermal weave of the long johns and the thin cotton undies could dry pretty quick. By the time she was wrapped in the blanket- she was dry. I think the stagers didn't think the stains would be noticed, o if they were, that it wouldn't be an issue. Urine-soaked clothes don't LOOK stained when wet. I think that her parents were well aware of the fact that people knew JBR wet the bed and had incontinence problems. I just don't think they thought it would be an issue. (Like the pineapple and the too-big panties- it was a shock to them when they became an issue).

DeeDee249,

I believe the stagers had no way of knowing that a splinter was left inside the vagina. It was on the finger that snapped the paintbrush, and probably came off during the digital penetration. This splinter was found at autopsy, during dissection of the vagina. The coroner didn't just look inside and see it.

Well this is ST's PDI I am referencing here, and its not that the stagers knew there was a splinter inside JonBenet, but that according to ST and his timeframe of events, the splinter arrived inside JonBenet after she had been cleaned and redressed upstairs. In some respects this tallies with the point I was making that Coroner Meyer concluded that JonBenet had been wiped down after being redressed in the size-12's? Assuming I am wrong, the arrival of the splinter still allows the stager to see that JonBenet's size-12's and longjohns are urine-soaked?

I just don't think they thought it would be an issue. (Like the pineapple and the too-big panties- it was a shock to them when they became an issue).

The size-12's are as yet unexplained, and if they were stored in JonBenet's bedroom, may suggest a BDI, since Patsy's account of the size-12's is inconsistent with her own staging, which was premeditated. It would appear that urine-soaked clothing was not an issue to the stager, the pineapple is not a good analogy, since that was not staging. The wine-cellar is intended to deflect attention away from the original events leading up to JonBenet's death, so why bother with any staging if you simply leave JonBenet wearing the urine-soaked longjohns, and if as you say:

I think that her parents were well aware of the fact that people knew JBR wet the bed and had incontinence problems.

Why bother cleaning her up at all? The stager must have known then that initial speculation might focus upon bedwetting etc? Why wipe her down, as per Coroner Meyer, remove blood from her pubic area?

Something does not add up here.

Its a pity Steve Thomas never offered a more substantial account of his PDI, or refined it further, since some aspects are questionable.

.

DeeDee249 · Feb 23, 2008

Again- I feel the size 12s and long johns were one of the last things done to the body, after she was wiped down.
There are two reasons I can think of to leave the urine-stained clothes and still wiping her down any way. One was that what they were wiping was BLOOD. And blood indicates an attack of some sort, whereas urine, especially in a child known to wet the bed, does not. The other still has the blood needing to be wiped because it was, well...blood, and the urine was post-mortem and not noticed at the time. Keep in mind that while we have a basic knowledge of the time of death and a good idea of a timeline of events, we really don't know how much time elapsed between the wiping/redressing and wrapping her in the white blanket, and we also don't know the exact order of events. Her urine-soaked clothing may have dried by then- cotton clothes dry relatively quickly, and the stagers may not have given it any more thought. A REAL intruder/kidnapper, BTW, would not have wiped her down or redressed her. Why bother? Someone who assaults, bludgeons and strangles a child wouldn't care how she was found- naked, bloodied, half-dressed, etc. But a parent WOULD care, even a parent who had done these horrific things.
We do know that there was only about 2-3 hours that JBR was alive after she came home from the White's- from 10pm to approx. midnight-1am. During these 2-3 hours, JBR had her pineapple, and experienced whatever events that led up to her death. As JR admits to staying to to help BR with a toy, IF he and his son went to bed at all, it was around 11pm. That leaves only an hour till neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the scream. At that point, JR would not be deeply asleep; however noisy the activities of the murder and staging were, he would have heard them. This is why I believe that NONE of the Rs actually went to sleep that night, though BR may have gone to bed.
The remaining 5-6 hours is conjecture as to what took place when. The garroting, wiping down, finding the alternative panties, writing the note, placing her in the wineceller, covering her with the blanket - these are all things that individually take a relatively short time each. There was about 5-6 hours between her her death and the 911 call. And before you knew it, it was time to place that call before their pilot would be calling to see where they were. It isn't as if it was a commercial flight that would just leave without them; the airlines don't call you to see why you missed your flight- it happens all the time. But the private pilot hired to fly JR own plane would wait for a while- and then call to see where they were. It IS suspicious that he didn't call. I am sure LE never thought to ask about this. The only mention we have of JR speaking to his pilot was AFTER he "found" JBR- after 1pm- HOURS after you would expect the pilot to call the R home or JR's cellphone to see what happened. I guess if those phone records had been made available to LE we'd know if that happened.

JMO8778 · Feb 23, 2008

I believe JR says in DOI that he did call the pilot that morning,after the 911 call and the friends were called,but don't quote me.Anyone know? A lot of my books are in storage,so I don't have them handy.I don't recall if it was before or after LE arrived,if he said he'd called him.

JMO8778 · Feb 23, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
A REAL intruder/kidnapper, BTW, would not have wiped her down or redressed her. Why bother? Someone who assaults, bludgeons and strangles a child wouldn't care how she was found- naked, bloodied, half-dressed, etc. But a parent WOULD care, even a parent who had done these horrific things.

I believe that's how Jaqualyn Dowoliby was found,and behind a dumpster at that.NOT something a parent would do,indeed.I've always felt they were innocent,for many reasons,including their lack of suspicious behavior;not something we see here w/ the R's.

JMO8778 · Feb 23, 2008

UKGuy said:
DeeDee249,

Well this is ST's PDI I am referencing here, and its not that the stagers knew there was a splinter inside JonBenet, but that according to ST and his timeframe of events, the splinter arrived inside JonBenet after she had been cleaned and redressed upstairs. In some respects this tallies with the point I was making that Coroner Meyer concluded that JonBenet had been wiped down after being redressed in the size-12's? Assuming I am wrong, the arrival of the splinter still allows the stager to see that JonBenet's size-12's and longjohns are urine-soaked?

The size-12's are as yet unexplained, and if they were stored in JonBenet's bedroom, may suggest a BDI, since Patsy's account of the size-12's is inconsistent with her own staging, which was premeditated. It would appear that urine-soaked clothing was not an issue to the stager, the pineapple is not a good analogy, since that was not staging. The wine-cellar is intended to deflect attention away from the original events leading up to JonBenet's death, so why bother with any staging if you simply leave JonBenet wearing the urine-soaked longjohns, and if as you say:

Why bother cleaning her up at all? The stager must have known then that initial speculation might focus upon bedwetting etc? Why wipe her down, as per Coroner Meyer, remove blood from her pubic area?

Something does not add up here.

Its a pity Steve Thomas never offered a more substantial account of his PDI, or refined it further, since some aspects are questionable.

.

yes,I'd like to hear what he has to say since JR's fiber evidence turned up.Although I beleive I recall reading somewhere that he hadn't changed his mind that Patsy did it.I've always felt there was innuendo in his book that JR was involved before the fact..things like the word incest being turned to in the dictionary,references to LE saying PR and JR stayed away from each other that morning and that something was wrong..it seemed more like a death,not a KN,etc.So I don't believe he totally ruled out JR's involvement.What I do get out of it is that there is evidence he doesn't want to reveal,such as saying Patsy disposed of evidence down a storm drain or n-bor's garbage...I think he knows full well she and of course sister PP removed some of it,and JR may have hidden some things in his golf bag.Perhaps he even has proof of that?

JMO8778 · Feb 23, 2008

UKGuy said:
Albert18,
You reckon, much of Steve Thomas' PDI is speculative, he rules out John's participation, but the forensic evidence places him at the crime-scene, also John's account of placing a sleeping JonBenet to bed is contradicted by the pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach. How do Patsy and John arrive at the same account if JonBenet was placed to bed wearing the red turtleneck, but John discovers her wearing the white gap-top? Patsy is supposed to have removed forensic evidence by dumping it outdoors in sewers and neighbors trash-cans, I doubt that. Patsy left JonBenet wearing urine-soaked longjohns, but bedwetting is the event that led to Patsy killing JonBenet, so why bother doing any staging, just to leave her wearing urine-soaked clothes? Then there is the splinter discovered inside JonBenet, what has that to do with staging, is it a fake sexual assault, if so, why hide it beneath size-12's, longjohns, and a blanket? Also there is the ignoring of expert opinion citing chronic sexual abuse, with no explanation to demonstrate why his theory is better.

imo Steve Thomas' PDI theory is flawed.

.

he does present that info in his book,although not in his own personal theory.that is left up to the reader to decide.perhaps he felt JB was enduring so much physical trauma from infections and Patsy corporally cleaning her,that JR wouldn't (and maybe didn't even know about it) have abused her *in addition* to that?

DeeDee249 · Feb 24, 2008

I believe ST handled his investigation with a lot of integrity, and no agenda other than following the evidence solve the crime. I think that's why the RST hated him so much. He couldn't be "bought". Or bullied.
I have read his book, and above all I am an RDI, though I do have several theories. I do agree with is his comment that the public (us) are aware of only about 10% of the evidence in this case. Obviously he knows much that we don't. We are trying to solve this case with blinders on.
However, I don't agree with everything in his book. While PR may have acted alone after the "accident", I really don't think she did. If this case is a PDI, then I believe JR came into it right after the attack.
If JR was molesting his daughter, which is a possibility, then he had a reason for a rage attack as well. I think even if he was, I don't think he would have killed her intentionally even if she threatened to tell. I don't think JBR, at 6 years of age, would have told anyway, I think she would have felt powerless to stop her father.
I just can't fit the pieces together in an JDI theory as easily as I can in a PDI theory. I just don't think he'd molest her THAT night when PR was up late getting ready for the trip; or an anytime when PR was home. Family members who molest kids will wait till they are alone with them usually.
While it is possible that JR knew very well that no one would be able to hear anything going on in the basement, I just can't see him taking a chance that night.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

JMO8778 said:
I believe JR says in DOI that he did call the pilot that morning,after the 911 call and the friends were called,but don't quote me.Anyone know? A lot of my books are in storage,so I don't have them handy.I don't recall if it was before or after LE arrived,if he said he'd called him.

JMO8778,
You are correct, there were three calls to his pilot, two from John Ramsey and one from Fleet White to cancel John's intention to fly to Atlanta shortly after JonBenet's body was discovered. The first call postponed the morning flight notifying the pilot, Mike Archuleta, that JonBenet was missing.

.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

JMO8778 said:
he does present that info in his book,although not in his own personal theory.that is left up to the reader to decide.perhaps he felt JB was enduring so much physical trauma from infections and Patsy corporally cleaning her,that JR wouldn't (and maybe didn't even know about it) have abused her *in addition* to that?

JMO8778,

that JR wouldn't (and maybe didn't even know about it) have abused her *in addition* to that?

How do we know? imo, I reckon someone was sexually abusing JonBenet and had been for a while. Any other abuse such as being punished for bedwetting etc was simply parallel to this.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
Again- I feel the size 12s and long johns were one of the last things done to the body, after she was wiped down.
There are two reasons I can think of to leave the urine-stained clothes and still wiping her down any way. One was that what they were wiping was BLOOD. And blood indicates an attack of some sort, whereas urine, especially in a child known to wet the bed, does not. The other still has the blood needing to be wiped because it was, well...blood, and the urine was post-mortem and not noticed at the time. Keep in mind that while we have a basic knowledge of the time of death and a good idea of a timeline of events, we really don't know how much time elapsed between the wiping/redressing and wrapping her in the white blanket, and we also don't know the exact order of events. Her urine-soaked clothing may have dried by then- cotton clothes dry relatively quickly, and the stagers may not have given it any more thought. A REAL intruder/kidnapper, BTW, would not have wiped her down or redressed her. Why bother? Someone who assaults, bludgeons and strangles a child wouldn't care how she was found- naked, bloodied, half-dressed, etc. But a parent WOULD care, even a parent who had done these horrific things.
We do know that there was only about 2-3 hours that JBR was alive after she came home from the White's- from 10pm to approx. midnight-1am. During these 2-3 hours, JBR had her pineapple, and experienced whatever events that led up to her death. As JR admits to staying to to help BR with a toy, IF he and his son went to bed at all, it was around 11pm. That leaves only an hour till neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the scream. At that point, JR would not be deeply asleep; however noisy the activities of the murder and staging were, he would have heard them. This is why I believe that NONE of the Rs actually went to sleep that night, though BR may have gone to bed.
The remaining 5-6 hours is conjecture as to what took place when. The garroting, wiping down, finding the alternative panties, writing the note, placing her in the wineceller, covering her with the blanket - these are all things that individually take a relatively short time each. There was about 5-6 hours between her her death and the 911 call. And before you knew it, it was time to place that call before their pilot would be calling to see where they were. It isn't as if it was a commercial flight that would just leave without them; the airlines don't call you to see why you missed your flight- it happens all the time. But the private pilot hired to fly JR own plane would wait for a while- and then call to see where they were. It IS suspicious that he didn't call. I am sure LE never thought to ask about this. The only mention we have of JR speaking to his pilot was AFTER he "found" JBR- after 1pm- HOURS after you would expect the pilot to call the R home or JR's cellphone to see what happened. I guess if those phone records had been made available to LE we'd know if that happened.

DeeDee249,

Again- I feel the size 12s and long johns were one of the last things done to the body, after she was wiped down.

Well Steve Thomas' PDI locates the redressing and cleaning up to have taken place just after the head blow?

Here is a rough outline of Steve Thomas' timeline

1.1 JonBenet wets the bed.
1.2 Patsy loses it and accidently causes JonBenet's head to strike some hard surface.
1.3 Patsy removes the red turtleneck and cleans up JonBenet depositing the black fibers.
1.4 Patsy redresses JonBenet.
2.0 Patsy relocates JonBenet's body from upstairs to the wine-cellar.
3.0 Patsy authors the Ransom Note.
4.1 Patsy returns to the wine-cellar, finding JonBenet alive, proceeds to garrote her.
4.2 Patsy then stages an intruder *advertiser censored* kidnapping homicide.
4.3 Patsy then dumps any remaining forensic evidence outdoors in a sewer or a neighbors trash can.

The size-12's were blood stained but JonBenet's pubic area was free of blood except for:

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of
closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood.

Now this evidence allowed Coroner Meyer to form this conclusion:

Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

So your thought:

Again- I feel the size 12s and long johns were one of the last things done to the body, after she was wiped down.

appears to be inconsistent with the evidence. It suggests to me that she was cleaned up as per 1.3 and 1.4 from Steve Thomas' theory, but Coroner Meyer's conclusion that she was wiped by a cloth implies that this was in addition to the already itemised stages, since the size-12's should be blood free at the latter itemized stage?

There are two reasons I can think of to leave the urine-stained clothes and still wiping her down any way. One was that what they were wiping was BLOOD. And blood indicates an attack of some sort, whereas urine, especially in a child known to wet the bed, does not.

Thats fine, but if the splinter indicates some form of staging to accompany the kidnapping element, why bother removing the blood since the whole idea is that JonBenet was attacked and removed from her bed?

Her urine-soaked clothing may have dried by then- cotton clothes dry relatively quickly, and the stagers may not have given it any more thought.

Would the clothing have dried out as quickly as you suggest, since she was wrapped in the blanket, and her body temperature was reducing as her body lost heat?

The remaining 5-6 hours is conjecture as to what took place when. The garroting, wiping down, finding the alternative panties, writing the note, placing her in the wineceller, covering her with the blanket - these are all things that individually take a relatively short time each. There was about 5-6 hours between her her death and the 911 call.

I reckon we can draw up a timeline of events using Steve Thomas theory and compare it to the forensic evidence e.g. if JonBenet's head injury took place upstairs, and she was garroted downstairs in the basement, then we can speculate with a degree of confidence upon the sequence of events?

There was about 5-6 hours between her her death and the 911 call.

I agree this is what I refer to as the lacuna, so we can assume that there was plenty time to revise the staging e.g. remove those size-12's and replace them with a pair of size-6's from her bathroom panty drawer?

.

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

u

UKGuy said:
JMO8778,

How do we know? imo, I reckon someone was sexually abusing JonBenet and had been for a while. Any other abuse such as being punished for bedwetting etc was simply parallel to this.

could be,but I'm highly suspect of JAR and Patsy's father as far as sexual abuse goes.JR,being her father,living in the house with her ...had common sense and more to risk if say,JB was in a car accident,and/or ever needed surgery,and findings of abuse surfaced.He had to know that he would be the first one LE suspected.I'm just not sure he would take that chance.
Likewise,Patsy never took JB to any other Dr other than Dr Beuf,out of fear JR would be blamed for the damage she was doing,IMO.(or it would be found out she was corporally cleaning her).

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

UKGuy said:
DeeDee249,

Well Steve Thomas' PDI locates the redressing and cleaning up to have taken place just after the head blow?

Here is a rough outline of Steve Thomas' timeline

The size-12's were blood stained but JonBenet's pubic area was free of blood except for:

Now this evidence allowed Coroner Meyer to form this conclusion:

So your thought:

appears to be inconsistent with the evidence. It suggests to me that she was cleaned up as per 1.3 and 1.4 from Steve Thomas' theory, but Coroner Meyer's conclusion that she was wiped by a cloth implies that this was in addition to the already itemised stages, since the size-12's should be blood free at the latter itemized stage?

Thats fine, but if the splinter indicates some form of staging to accompany the kidnapping element, why bother removing the blood since the whole idea is that JonBenet was attacked and removed from her bed?

Would the clothing have dried out as quickly as you suggest, since she was wrapped in the blanket, and her body temperature was reducing as her body lost heat?

I reckon we can draw up a timeline of events using Steve Thomas theory and compare it to the forensic evidence e.g. if JonBenet's head injury took place upstairs, and she was garroted downstairs in the basement, then we can speculate with a degree of confidence upon the sequence of events?

I agree this is what I refer to as the lacuna, so we can assume that there was plenty time to revise the staging e.g. remove those size-12's and replace them with a pair of size-6's from her bathroom panty drawer?

.

..something I think is important is exactly how long, from sustaining the head injury, did it take for JB to be moved to the basement? I'm not sure there is any way to determine that(?)
Because once she is moved to the basement,she was 1- either thought already dead,or more likely,IMO...2-the decision was made to end her life.PATSY,IMO,knew that cord was in the basement among her painting items.She saw the damage she had sustained to JB's neck,and she desperately needed to account for it.Using the cord,she can now both account for the damage,and end her life at the same time.
I wish I could find another way to put this,but I can't think of anything rightoffhand...(NOT to say anything bad about JB),it's just that no one would start off taking something to the town landfill if they didn't intend to dispose of it.Likewise,Patsy (IMO it was most likely her,not JR or BR),would not have taken JB to the basement if she didn't intend to kill her.The moment she was taken down those stairs was the defining moment,IMO.
Does that make any sense?

The big fuss over the cord for the IDI's that PATSY knew it was there,BEFORE she moved JB to the basement,and she had a couple of good reasons to use it,if she wanted to save herself.

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

UKGuy said:
JMO8778,
You are correct, there were three calls to his pilot, two from John Ramsey and one from Fleet White to cancel John's intention to fly to Atlanta shortly after JonBenet's body was discovered. The first call postponed the morning flight notifying the pilot, Mike Archuleta, that JonBenet was missing.

.

ok,thx for that info.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

JMO8778 said:
..something I think is important is exactly how long, from sustaining the head injury, did it take for JB to be moved to the basement? I'm not sure there is any way to determine that(?)
Because once she is moved to the basement,she was 1- either thought already dead,or more likely,IMO...2-the decision was made to end her life.PATSY,IMO,knew that cord was in the basement among her painting items.She saw the damage she had sustained to JB's neck,and she desperately needed to account for it.Using the cord,she can now both account for the damage,and end her life at the same time.
I wish I could find another way to put this,but I can't think of anything rightoffhand...(NOT to say anything bad about JB),it's just that no one would start off taking something to the town landfill if they didn't intend to dispose of it.Likewise,Patsy (IMO it was most likely her,not JR or BR),would not have taken JB to the basement if she didn't intend to kill her.The moment she was taken down those stairs was the defining moment,IMO.
Does that make any sense?

The big fuss over the cord for the IDI's that PATSY knew it was there,BEFORE she moved JB to the basement,and she had a couple of good reasons to use it,if she wanted to save herself.

JMO8778,
Using Steve Thomas' PDI theory, and other forensic factors such as the onset of rigor and that she appeared to have livor mortis on the back side of her body, others conclude that there was a short time period between the head blow and being moved to the basement? Steve Thomas has Patsy moving JonBenet to the basement, thinking she is dead, prior to authoring the Ransom Note, she then returns to the basement to garrote JonBenet.

This timeline is not set in stone, but some events can be sequenced even if we cannot schedule them.

The use of the cord and paintbrush can be viewed as staging or not depending on your theory, since JonBenet may have been ligature strangled first, then had the paintbrush handle applied?

I wish I could find another way to put this,but I can't think of anything rightoffhand...(NOT to say anything bad about JB),it's just that no one would start off taking something to the town landfill if they didn't intend to dispose of it.Likewise,Patsy (IMO it was most likely her,not JR or BR),would not have taken JB to the basement if she didn't intend to kill her.The moment she was taken down those stairs was the defining moment,IMO.
Does that make any sense?

According to Steve Thomas Patsy already thought JonBenet was dead when she was moved to the basement.

Another staging may have already taken place in the basement but revised in favor of the wine-cellar scenario?

Unless the Ransom Note was nothing more than a diversion, JonBenet's body may have been intended for dumping outdoors, to author a ransom note, yet leave the body in the house is curious to say the least.

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, so its best to view Patsy's intentions through this filter, so if she decides to kill JonBenet, then it has to look horrific and the work of an intruder. This is one reason why I reckon the size-12's were placed on her upstairs, but for a different reason?

.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

JMO8778 said:
u

could be,but I'm highly suspect of JAR and Patsy's father as far as sexual abuse goes.JR,being her father,living in the house with her ...had common sense and more to risk if say,JB was in a car accident,and/or ever needed surgery,and findings of abuse surfaced.He had to know that he would be the first one LE suspected.I'm just not sure he would take that chance.
Likewise,Patsy never took JB to any other Dr other than Dr Beuf,out of fear JR would be blamed for the damage she was doing,IMO.(or it would be found out she was corporally cleaning her).

JMO8778,
JonBenet could have been abused multiply by different individuals, and probably was. Depending on how you define the abuse e.g. was Burke's behaviour whilst JonBenet shared his bed, ever abusive?

imo cleaning JonBenet or punishing her for wetting the bed followed by an accident don't seem serious enough to me to warrant denying her medical attention. Lets put it another way if you think John was involved in a post-mortem conspiracy, consider how much easier fixing a medical appointment with a live JonBenet might be, say phoning Dr. Beuf first?

Also consider how willing Pamela Paugh was to become part of the post-mortem conspiracy, she knew what she was doing, she was saving Patsy's neck.

The circumstantial evidence along with the expert opinion suggests JonBenet was sexually abused. The point at issue is was it the major factor contributing towards her death?

.

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

UKGuy said:
JMO8778,
Using Steve Thomas' PDI theory, and other forensic factors such as the onset of rigor and that she appeared to have livor mortis on the back side of her body, others conclude that there was a short time period between the head blow and being moved to the basement? Steve Thomas has Patsy moving JonBenet to the basement, thinking she is dead, prior to authoring the Ransom Note, she then returns to the basement to garrote JonBenet.

could be,I suspect it was authored afterwards,due to the beheaded and SFF comments.

Unless the Ransom Note was nothing more than a diversion, JonBenet's body may have been intended for dumping outdoors, to author a ransom note, yet leave the body in the house is curious to say the least.

again,could be,the denying her remains comment sure makes me suspect of that.Along with JR trying to account for his fresh prints on the walk-in fridge,it sounds as though more than one scenario was considered.

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, so its best to view Patsy's intentions through this filter, so if she decides to kill JonBenet, then it has to look horrific and the work of an intruder.

.

of course,and the marks on her neck may have been one of the main reasons medical assistance was denied.others are the vaginal abuse,and what JB might tell authorities,should she awaken.By that I don't necessarily mean sexual abuse,it could have been fear of talking about Patsy strangling her,throwing her around the bathroom or her bedroom,etc.

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

UKGuy said:
Also consider how willing Pamela Paugh was to become part of the post-mortem conspiracy, she knew what she was doing, she was saving Patsy's neck.
\

.

..yes, and that makes me wonder what she had witnessed in the past ..perhaps growing up,perhaps even after that ..that showed Patsy had an explosive temper at times and that it was bad enough to do harm to JB.She had to have known her temperament well enough to know it was possible.

UKGuy · Feb 24, 2008

JMO8778 said:
..yes, and that makes me wonder what she had witnessed in the past ..perhaps growing up,perhaps even after that ..that showed Patsy had an explosive temper at times and that it was bad enough to do harm to JB.She had to have known her temperament well enough to know it was possible.

JMO8778,
Yes along with any shared childhood secrets etc?

JMO8778 · Feb 24, 2008

UKGuy said:
JMO8778,
Yes along with any shared childhood secrets etc?

indeed.

DeeDee249 · Feb 24, 2008

As far as the blood on the size 12s- to say they were blood-STAINED may be going a bit too far. As I understand it, there were a few DROPS of blood. That's it. Not even enough to penetrate through the thin cotton to the long johns. This SECOND bleeding (really only an oozing) was not seen by the stagers. Once those long johns were pulled back up after the initial wiping, her pubic area was not seen again until the coroner examined her.

I also get a feeling that JBR was being abused by JAR. Often when a child is sexually abused, it will be by multiple family members. In this family, we have an adult female whose sexuality has been diminished through surgery, chemotherapy, etc. We have a beautiful 6-year old girl, who has been made to look and act in the sexualized manner of a much older girl. She also does not have the usual sense of physical "boundaries" about her private parts that kids should have by that age. We have a young boy, who at nearly 10, is on the verge of puberty. (ask any man when he remembers that first "stirring" of hormones- it certainly can be that young). We have a college-age half brother whose semen stained comforter was found in a suitcase also containing a children's Dr.Seuss book and JBR's hairs. Just looking at it that way- it's a petri-dish for sexual abuse of the little girl.

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