otg
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(edited) ...except I can't see where the tail of the cord is in the photo.
![3d74fed960b722eeb6daf7534bd15cb6b318fb006fa23fbb6b6982e42c08bb454g.jpg](/forums/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg4.mediafire.com%2F3d74fed960b722eeb6daf7534bd15cb6b318fb006fa23fbb6b6982e42c08bb454g.jpg&hash=a26bc6029ffbf12196ee2892342a0dd3)
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(edited) ...except I can't see where the tail of the cord is in the photo.
Have you ever tied a knot, and then cut the excess off with scissors? Why would there be no fraying then?Hmm, not too sure otg, that looks rounded like a loop.
Yes, exactly! Notice how the other ends are frayed. Why would they be so frayed -- especially the one closest to the loop that came off her left wrist?Notice how the other end and pieces from her arms are frayed on the edges?
Heyya otg.
I had the same thought, that it might be an end.
Unsure however, but the reverse image has what could be a nub of the tail end of rope. (upper left below 6 CM mark of ruler)
Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Ramsey home: Basement photos
Thanks for all your work on this otg. I was otherwise engaged when this thread started and this is the only chance I've had to read right from the beginning.
I know we've got off the track a little of where you were going, so I'd like to correct that.
You have explained that the final result of the cord/stick was not what logically the strangulation device. I've tried it out and agree.
What I don't agree with though is that she was 'hanged' and I think others have also questioned this.
What I'm wondering, and thinking it may fit with what you have already discovered, is that the original 'strangulation' was achieved simply by wrapping the cord once around her neck with a twist (as you do when wrapping a parcel) and pulled by hand in opposite directions?
Does this make any sense at all??
Yes- it makes perfect sense to me. (surprised?) I also agree with you that she was NOT hanged- (more surprises).
I think that all that was needed to put an already unconscious (from the head bash) JB over the point from life to death was wrapping the cord and pulling tight enough to compress the vagus nerve, stopping her heart. It wouldn't have taken much.
Sadly, kids engaging in "strangulation" play, either for sexual enhancement or the "rush" they feel from oxygen depravation, sometimes exert too much pressure on the vagus nerve and stop their hearts without realizing what they are doing, and all of a sudden- they die.
This comment is NOT to suggest by any means that JB was doing this to herself. But many people here, both RDI and IDI, consider the strangulation to be part of a sexual activity with JB.(and she was NOT a willing participant, so please don't go there). Much less pressure than you realize is needed to cause pressure on the vagus nerve and stop the heart, and there doesn't have to be anything wrapped completely around the neck.
MF,Playing here with the cord and a pen trying to get something similar. Ok, take the pen to about the length you want it to end up, wrap the cord over the pen and bring it back at an angle three times on one side of the cord, then do the same on the other side of the cord, tuck the loose end through the last loop and you have something similar to what we see there, edited to add, except I can't see where the tail of the cord is in the photo.
You mean in the cirme sene picture showing the cord wrapped around the paintbrush piece? The end of the cord is the cylindrical piece on the right hand side. Maybe this end was still "melted" and had not yet been cut. For nylon, when cut, always frays.edited to add, except I can't see where the tail of the cord is in the photo.
MF,
I tried about the same experiment as you a while ago with a pencil and cord and got a similar result.
You mean in the cirme sene picture showing the cord wrapped around the paintbrush piece? The end of the cord is the cylindrical piece on the right hand side. Maybe this end was still "melted" and had not yet been cut. For nylon, when cut, always frays.
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote2.jpg
The amount of JonBenet's hair entangled in the cord wrappings indicates that the stager of the scene (imo there is no doubt that this element of the crime scene was staged) wrapped the cord around the wooden piece when JonBenet was lying motionless, already in a coma nearing death.
And wasn't there also a fiber from the jacket Patsy had been wearing to the the Whites' party found in the cord wrappings?
Another of Patsy's jacket fibers was found the paint tote, one (or more?) on the blanket covering the dead body, and four (!) of her jacket fibers were found on the duct tape.
The fiber evidence against Patsy is so incriminating because all these fibers were found in locations directly connected to the child's violent death.
Note to RDI: please spare the 'staging' stuff as I've heard it n times.
The rectangular hole thru JBR's skull doesn't look anything like staging to me, OK?
Neither does the deep furrow around her neck with petechial hemorrhaging. Its the real deal.
Sorry, HOTYH. I don't take requests.
I'm not aware of anyone who says it WAS, HOTYH. This is a strawman argument.
It's still staging if the person didn't know she was alive.
Anyone know why Lou Smit never solved his most famous case, he had dna, he had fibers, he had artifacts, allegedly owned by the intruder?
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Part - 1 [The Garrote Thats Not]
Part - 2 [The Wrist Knots]
Part - 3 [The Knot Around JonBenets Neck]
Part - 4 [The Knot Tied to the Stick]
Part - 5 [Tying It All Together]
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A quick refresher for anyone who might have missed how I got to the point I am at:
As you read what I am about to write, I ask you to put aside your beliefs about what happened. Forget about the things that happened afterward that make you think that “RDI”, or “IDI”. Forget about the things that you want to believe because you just can’t image that someone in a certain situation would do this, or not do that. Forget about what someone might or might not have said in an interview three of five years after the fact. And forget about any “expert’s” opinion, or what was printed in a newspaper article or tabloid journal (surely we know not to put much faith in any of that). Forget it all for now and look only at the evidence of what caused JonBenet’s death.
If you have followed my numbered posts so far, you know that I believe that the ligature evidence and the markings on her neck show that JonBenet was strangled by hanging -- not the staged “garrote”. There is just way too much that points away from the paintbrush being actually used in the way it is tied to the cord to think that it is not part of the staging that was done to hide what actually happened.
So even if you disagree with me on this, consider for a moment that when she died, if the paintbrush was not there, how could she have been hung? I would point out again the frayed ends of the cord that I talked about before. If the knot tied to the paintbrush was not there, what we have left is three somewhat similar knots (similar in their lack of complexity) tied somewhat randomly with no particular intent other than to hold them in place. Consider that before she was killed, the cord was one continuous piece in the way that it was used, and that it was eventually cut while under strain causing the fraying.
I think that this was the case, and that the scenario went something like this:
The right wrist was tied first, and then the left wrist. Neither of these two knots was tied tightly. They were put there simply to restrain, or at least add a feeling of restraint -- maybe even in a “playful” way. Then the longer end of the cord is put over one of the many pipes that run all over the basement and then tied around her neck with a slipknot so it can be tightened just enough to make JonBenet feel like she has to stay right there. It would not have been secured tightly around her neck; it would have some slack in it and lie loosely around her neck and rest at the base of her neck. There is no intent to kill or harm her in any way with the cord. This is all done simply to make her feel she can’t go running out of the room. This was all done to keep her there while the reason for doing it was carried out. That reason was the “molestation”.
As so many “experts” have pointed out, there was no sexual gratification in a traditional sense. There was no semen found anywhere on or in her body, there was none found in the room, there was no penile or large object insertion. The only thing that occurred of a sexual nature was insertion of something “consistent with digital insertion” -- something that was inserted causing the acute injuries noted in the autopsy report. Whether or not this had occurred in the past is still being debated and will probably never be resolved with any certainty, but the acute injuries cannot be denied. It’s possible (and I give credence to it) that similar things had happened in the past. Perhaps this was an escalation of what had happened prior to that night. For now though, let’s go on and leave that debate for another time. The assault (and that is what it was) that happened associated with her death is fact that is documented in the AR. It was, I believe, the reason she was brought to the basement as far away from the others in the house as possible.
By the lack of damage to her neck internally (“Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose no evidence of fracture or hemorrhage.”, I would posit that the hanging did not occur from a high distance. Was she standing on something or simply standing in place? Either could be the case, but because of the lack of damage to her neck, I would think she was simply standing on the floor.
Once this was done, the molestation began. Some may reason that JonBenet had to have been a willing, docile, or at the least -- a passive participant in this, at least at the start. It could be argued that her “sexuallization” by Patsy may have contributed to that. But certainly at her age, no one could expect her to know just how vulnerable she was at that point or how much danger she was in because of the circumstances that had been set up. I won’t try to argue any of those points here, because I’m trying to look only at what the evidence tells us happened to cause her death.
So JonBenet is restrained with the cord tied around her wrists, and the continuous piece of cord goes from her left wrist over something above her head, and then is tied around her neck. The end of the artist’s paintbrush (unbroken) is inserted enough to cause injury and obviously _____ pain (ladies can add what ever adjective they feel appropriate in the space before the word “pain” -- sharp, extreme, terrible, intense, severe, tremendous). She screams. The scream may have been from the pain; it could have been from her looking down and seeing the blood. According to one account, Melody Stanton was awakened by “one loud, incredible scream”. She related that it was “obviously from a child” and that it lasted 3 to 5 seconds and then abruptly stopped. After the scream began -- panic. An object is picked up and she is struck over the head (“and then abruptly stopped”. Exactly what the object was is debatable. Even the investigators who are privy to all of the evidence disagree. Was it a bat, a flashlight, or maybe even a fireplace log tool? I think it was a putter golf club turned to where the tip of the back end of it hit her head with the full weight and force concentrated in that one small area.
Regardless of what the object was, the blow to her head caused her to lose consciousness. Her head dropped and her body fell forward. The weight of her upper torso pulling on the cord raised her left arm and tightened the left wrist knot on itself. At the same time, the slipknot around her neck tightened and strangled the life out of her.
Everyone likes to ask and debate, which came first -- the head blow or the strangulation? Experts can’t agree. What they do agree on is that either one of the injuries alone could have caused her death. Technically, in this scenario, the head blow came first. But there would only be a second or so between the two injuries, so they effectively occurred simultaneously. This is the reason the autopsy findings are so inconclusive on the exact cause of death -- both injuries were killing her at the same time.
“CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.”
This is how the evidence says JonBenet died. There was no murder. There was no violent rape. There was no jealousy or rage involved in the head blow, only fear of being caught and a desire to stop the scream. There was never any kidnapping. There was no crime committed in her death -- just a terrible, tragic accident. Everything else is staging and cover-up. But that is where the crime was committed. The cover-up was a crime, but it will never be proven.
So now to explain the staging that is associated with the evidence that we know and that we have discussed here.
It should be obvious by now that I think that the sexual aspect of this was of a juvenile nature. It was a curiosity of sex that was being acted out on a person of convenience. It, and the cord tied around her neck, created a dangerous situation that was set up by someone who didn’t have the maturity to imagine the possible consequences of the things that were done. So I believe that when faced with a situation that might have required an immediate response, he didn’t know what to do. Did John and Patsy hear the scream and go running through the house to find where it came from and discover what happened, or did Burke wait until he felt he had to go wake them and tell them what had happened because they didn’t hear her scream? (We’ll never know the answer to that, but consider Patsy’s later statement: “Why didn’t I hear my baby?”But either way, when they did find JonBenet dead and hanging from the ceiling, John’s first reaction, as would any father’s reaction be, would be to cut the cord and get her down. Because of the weight of JonBenet on the cord, this would cause the cord to fray as it was cut. It would be obvious at this point that she was dead. Medical attention would be of no value. Even Patsy would have known that Jesus was not going to “raise her baby from the dead as He did Lazurus”.
So they were faced with the question of what to do. If they called the police, they would face everyone in the community knowing what had happened. I don’t imagine they knew that Burke was one-month shy of being able to be charged with any crime, so for all they knew, he might be charged with negligent homicide or wrongful death.
Now it’s time to do something. I believe they decided at this point to stage the entire thing to look like someone else was responsible. They also tried to completely remove any evidence of the sexual aspect, cleaning the blood from her body and changing any clothes that may have had any blood on them. The end of the paintbrush with blood and vaginal fluids was broken off so it would be small enough that it could be hidden, discarded, burned, or carried out in a pocket or anything else. Then the brush part was broken off to leave a wooden stick to tie the cord to, making it look like (in their minds anyway) a professional killing device. In the process of breaking it, small pieces of wood break off in shards and go unnoticed until found much later by BPD. The cord is tied to the middle piece so close to JonBenet’s hair that it gets caught in the knot.
[Sidenote: Ever wonder when she was found if the stick was tangled in her hair, if the hair had been pulled out by the root, or if it had been cut with scissors? Have you ever heard it said?]
Granted, there is a lot in the overall picture of what was found afterward that is still left unanswered. Did all of the staging and cover-up happen in the basement, or was she carried upstairs at some point between her death and her being laid out in the wine cellar? Was her body moved a second time before being “discovered” by John when he loosened and removed the knot on her left wrist? Was the broken brush end of Patsy’s paintbrush in the paint tote tested for fingerprints, and if it had none -- why not? Why was the flashlight and even the batteries in it wiped clean of fingerprints? How did the pineapple play into all this?
I’m sure you have your own questions, and we can debate them from now on, but the answers won’t change the evidence of how JonBenet. And if you consider the scenario I just laid out, doesn’t everything else in the behavior of all the people associated with this make sense? Does it not explain why Burke’s voice can be heard on the 911 call? Does it make sense now why Burke would stay in his room all morning long not coming down to ask what all the commotion was when they were supposed to be leaving for Michigan that morning? And when he was led through the house to leave for someone else’s home, why didn’t he even ask, “What are the police and all these people doing here? Did something happen?” Does it not explain some of the bizarre things that John and Patsy did and said after their child was killed, and why they would hire attorneys almost immediately to help them avoid being questioned by police? And how about John Andrew’s answer to what should be done to the person who killed his sister? -- “He should be forgiven.”
If you at least consider this, is there anything that doesn’t make sense?
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A quick refresher for anyone who might have missed how I got to the point I am at:
As you read what I am about to write, I ask you to put aside your beliefs about what happened. Forget about the things that happened afterward that make you think that RDI, or IDI. Forget about the things that you want to believe because you just cant image that someone in a certain situation would do this, or not do that. Forget about what someone might or might not have said in an interview three of five years after the fact. And forget about any experts opinion, or what was printed in a newspaper article or tabloid journal (surely we know not to put much faith in any of that). Forget it all for now and look only at the evidence of what caused JonBenets death.
If you have followed my numbered posts so far, you know that I believe that the ligature evidence and the markings on her neck show that JonBenet was strangled by hanging -- not the staged garrote. There is just way too much that points away from the paintbrush being actually used in the way it is tied to the cord to think that it is not part of the staging that was done to hide what actually happened.
So even if you disagree with me on this, consider for a moment that when she died, if the paintbrush was not there, how could she have been hung? I would point out again the frayed ends of the cord that I talked about before. If the knot tied to the paintbrush was not there, what we have left is three somewhat similar knots (similar in their lack of complexity) tied somewhat randomly with no particular intent other than to hold them in place. Consider that before she was killed, the cord was one continuous piece in the way that it was used, and that it was eventually cut while under strain causing the fraying.
I think that this was the case, and that the scenario went something like this:
The right wrist was tied first, and then the left wrist. Neither of these two knots was tied tightly. They were put there simply to restrain, or at least add a feeling of restraint -- maybe even in a playful way. Then the longer end of the cord is put over one of the many pipes that run all over the basement and then tied around her neck with a slipknot so it can be tightened just enough to make JonBenet feel like she has to stay right there. It would not have been secured tightly around her neck; it would have some slack in it and lie loosely around her neck and rest at the base of her neck. There is no intent to kill or harm her in any way with the cord. This is all done simply to make her feel she cant go running out of the room. This was all done to keep her there while the reason for doing it was carried out. That reason was the molestation.
As so many experts have pointed out, there was no sexual gratification in a traditional sense. There was no semen found anywhere on or in her body, there was none found in the room, there was no penile or large object insertion. The only thing that occurred of a sexual nature was insertion of something consistent with digital insertion -- something that was inserted causing the acute injuries noted in the autopsy report. Whether or not this had occurred in the past is still being debated and will probably never be resolved with any certainty, but the acute injuries cannot be denied. Its possible (and I give credence to it) that similar things had happened in the past. Perhaps this was an escalation of what had happened prior to that night. For now though, lets go on and leave that debate for another time. The assault (and that is what it was) that happened associated with her death is fact that is documented in the AR. It was, I believe, the reason she was brought to the basement as far away from the others in the house as possible.
By the lack of damage to her neck internally (Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose no evidence of fracture or hemorrhage.), I would posit that the hanging did not occur from a high distance. Was she standing on something or simply standing in place? Either could be the case, but because of the lack of damage to her neck, I would think she was simply standing on the floor.
Once this was done, the molestation began. Some may reason that JonBenet had to have been a willing, docile, or at the least -- a passive participant in this, at least at the start. It could be argued that her sexuallization by Patsy may have contributed to that. But certainly at her age, no one could expect her to know just how vulnerable she was at that point or how much danger she was in because of the circumstances that had been set up. I wont try to argue any of those points here, because Im trying to look only at what the evidence tells us happened to cause her death.
So JonBenet is restrained with the cord tied around her wrists, and the continuous piece of cord goes from her left wrist over something above her head, and then is tied around her neck. The end of the artists paintbrush (unbroken) is inserted enough to cause injury and obviously _____ pain (ladies can add what ever adjective they feel appropriate in the space before the word pain -- sharp, extreme, terrible, intense, severe, tremendous). She screams. The scream may have been from the pain; it could have been from her looking down and seeing the blood. According to one account, Melody Stanton was awakened by one loud, incredible scream. She related that it was obviously from a child and that it lasted 3 to 5 seconds and then abruptly stopped. After the scream began -- panic. An object is picked up and she is struck over the head (and then abruptly stopped). Exactly what the object was is debatable. Even the investigators who are privy to all of the evidence disagree. Was it a bat, a flashlight, or maybe even a fireplace log tool? I think it was a putter golf club turned to where the tip of the back end of it hit her head with the full weight and force concentrated in that one small area.
Regardless of what the object was, the blow to her head caused her to lose consciousness. Her head dropped and her body fell forward. The weight of her upper torso pulling on the cord raised her left arm and tightened the left wrist knot on itself. At the same time, the slipknot around her neck tightened and strangled the life out of her.
Everyone likes to ask and debate, which came first -- the head blow or the strangulation? Experts cant agree. What they do agree on is that either one of the injuries alone could have caused her death. Technically, in this scenario, the head blow came first. But there would only be a second or so between the two injuries, so they effectively occurred simultaneously. This is the reason the autopsy findings are so inconclusive on the exact cause of death -- both injuries were killing her at the same time.
CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.
This is how the evidence says JonBenet died. There was no murder. There was no violent rape. There was no jealousy or rage involved in the head blow, only fear of being caught and a desire to stop the scream. There was never any kidnapping. There was no crime committed in her death -- just a terrible, tragic accident. Everything else is staging and cover-up. But that is where the crime was committed. The cover-up was a crime, but it will never be proven.
So now to explain the staging that is associated with the evidence that we know and that we have discussed here.
It should be obvious by now that I think that the sexual aspect of this was of a juvenile nature. It was a curiosity of sex that was being acted out on a person of convenience. It, and the cord tied around her neck, created a dangerous situation that was set up by someone who didnt have the maturity to imagine the possible consequences of the things that were done. So I believe that when faced with a situation that might have required an immediate response, he didnt know what to do. Did John and Patsy hear the scream and go running through the house to find where it came from and discover what happened, or did Burke wait until he felt he had to go wake them and tell them what had happened because they didnt hear her scream? (Well never know the answer to that, but consider Patsys later statement: Why didnt I hear my baby?) But either way, when they did find JonBenet dead and hanging from the ceiling, Johns first reaction, as would any fathers reaction be, would be to cut the cord and get her down. Because of the weight of JonBenet on the cord, this would cause the cord to fray as it was cut. It would be obvious at this point that she was dead. Medical attention would be of no value. Even Patsy would have known that Jesus was not going to raise her baby from the dead as He did Lazurus.
So they were faced with the question of what to do. If they called the police, they would face everyone in the community knowing what had happened. I dont imagine they knew that Burke was one-month shy of being able to be charged with any crime, so for all they knew, he might be charged with negligent homicide or wrongful death.
Now its time to do something. I believe they decided at this point to stage the entire thing to look like someone else was responsible. They also tried to completely remove any evidence of the sexual aspect, cleaning the blood from her body and changing any clothes that may have had any blood on them. The end of the paintbrush with blood and vaginal fluids was broken off so it would be small enough that it could be hidden, discarded, burned, or carried out in a pocket or anything else. Then the brush part was broken off to leave a wooden stick to tie the cord to, making it look like (in their minds anyway) a professional killing device. In the process of breaking it, small pieces of wood break off in shards and go unnoticed until found much later by BPD. The cord is tied to the middle piece so close to JonBenets hair that it gets caught in the knot.
[Sidenote: Ever wonder when she was found if the stick was tangled in her hair, if the hair had been pulled out by the root, or if it had been cut with scissors? Have you ever heard it said?]
Granted, there is a lot in the overall picture of what was found afterward that is still left unanswered. Did all of the staging and cover-up happen in the basement, or was she carried upstairs at some point between her death and her being laid out in the wine cellar? Was her body moved a second time before being discovered by John when he loosened and removed the knot on her left wrist? Was the broken brush end of Patsys paintbrush in the paint tote tested for fingerprints, and if it had none -- why not? Why was the flashlight and even the batteries in it wiped clean of fingerprints? How did the pineapple play into all this?
Im sure you have your own questions, and we can debate them from now on, but the answers wont change the evidence of how JonBenet. And if you consider the scenario I just laid out, doesnt everything else in the behavior of all the people associated with this make sense? Does it not explain why Burkes voice can be heard on the 911 call? Does it make sense now why Burke would stay in his room all morning long not coming down to ask what all the commotion was when they were supposed to be leaving for Michigan that morning? And when he was led through the house to leave for someone elses home, why didnt he even ask, What are the police and all these people doing here? Did something happen? Does it not explain some of the bizarre things that John and Patsy did and said after their child was killed, and why they would hire attorneys almost immediately to help them avoid being questioned by police? And how about John Andrews answer to what should be done to the person who killed his sister? -- He should be forgiven.
If you at least consider this, is there anything that doesnt make sense?
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I'm sorry, I must have missed something, or not understood something.
In previous sections we've talked a lot about knots and ligature marks. It was my understanding that in hangings, the ligature mark will normally be asymmetrical. Are you saying the loop around her neck tightened prior to the body falling -such that it prevented the classic asymmetry? Or are you saying the body fell forward, but the feet were not dangling directly below the neck, as in a classic hanging - thus not all her weight was suspended from the neck.
The evidence suggests to me that her full body weight could not have been supported from the neck loop and still have produced the symmetrical "circumferential" mark.
I have other reservations, but I'll post them separately as they don't have to do with "evidence" but only my gut feeling.