WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

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Allusonz said:
I am curious as to why AK would have to be concerned

AK was seen and answered the door at RS's apartment by Jovana Popovic but JP did not see RS

You can determine that a computer is being used but you cannot truly identify the person using the computer. Thus it very well could of been AK, RS, or BOTH

RS's DNA was found on a bra clasp in the room of MK (albiet probably contamination)

The bathmat footprint is considered to be RS's not AK's (albiet by some)

RS had the knife fetish not AK (again though it was her DNA on the handle which was expected since she used it to cook with)

As well RG identified RS as being the person that ran from MK's room (it is his DNA all over MK's room)

It is only RS that states she left albiet briefly then returns to his original statement

In summation there appears to be much more evidence putting RS at the cottage than AK

:giggle:
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True, but there's no evidence that RS ever knew RG. So if you exclude AK, then you have RS meeting RG for the first time and immediately helping him to kill MK, all within about 12 minutes.

This is why I speculate that if pressed, the prosecution will cut loose RS and produce a new theory in which AK and RG killed MK together. Still nonsense, of course, but I think Mignini is wedded to a theory of AK as evil mastermind.
 
OldSteve said:
All the little details being mentioned has my old noggin spinning - but please don't forget the 1000 lb elephant in the room in terms of it was RG who murdered MK, and there is no way in MK's tiny room and with the blood splatter evidence that anything more took place... All IMO of course.
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IMO, too, as a matter of fact. Not to mention Ron Hendry.
 
OldSteve said:
All the little details being mentioned has my old noggin spinning - but please don't forget the 1000 lb elephant in the room in terms of it was RG who murdered MK, and there is no way in MK's tiny room and with the blood splatter evidence that anything more took place... All IMO of course.
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Interesting that so many crime scene techs could fit into the room on the oft
mentioned videos :waitasec: .
 
dgfred said:
Interesting that so many crime scene techs could fit into the room on the oft
mentioned videos :waitasec: .
Click to expand...

There are prisons in third-world countries where a dozen or more people are kept in rooms that size. Which isn't the point.

The point is that the blood splatter patterns left behind don't show the presence of anyone but the victim and her assailant. Certainly four people could fit in the room; but they couldn't be there while MK was bleeding out without leaving multiple, bloody footprints.
 
You seem to be assuming alot about what happened 'exactly' when Meredith was murdered.

They (all three) did not have to be around her as she 'bled out'.

Since obviously there was some clean up around Meredith either on purpose (with towels or other objects) or by movement/moving the body... could you show what 'blood splatter patterns' show in YOUR opinion??? <mod edit>
Since nobody but the three accused could know the actual dynamics of their positions and actions... it is impossible IMO from blood spatter patterns to know how much blood was on who. Now if we could look at the clothes they were wearing during the murder we might have a chance.

Bloody BARE footprints in the hallway and bathroom logically point to some cleanup... could this (cleanup) have happened around Meredith to some extent also? Could movement of the body and blood pooling post murder have covered some of the prints/evidence? There wasn't so many footprints or dna of RG either around Meredith. Only shoe prints mostly going straight out of the room and his dna in like 5 places ALL together. It is not like his footprints were all over the room or his dna was all over everything. Could the other accused also have had gloves on during the murder? possibly IMO.
 
dgfred said:
You seem to be assuming alot about what happened 'exactly' when Meredith was murdered.

They (all three) did not have to be around her as she 'bled out'.

Since obviously there was some clean up around Meredith either on purpose (with towels or other objects) or by movement/moving the body... could you show what 'blood splatter patterns' show in YOUR opinion??? <mod edit>
Since nobody but the three accused could know the actual dynamics of their positions and actions... it is impossible IMO from blood spatter patterns to know how much blood was on who. Now if we could look at the clothes they were wearing during the murder we might have a chance.

Bloody BARE footprints in the hallway and bathroom logically point to some cleanup... could this (cleanup) have happened around Meredith to some extent also? Could movement of the body and blood pooling post murder have covered some of the prints/evidence? There wasn't so many footprints or dna of RG either around Meredith. Only shoe prints mostly going straight out of the room and his dna in like 5 places ALL together. It is not like his footprints were all over the room or his dna was all over everything. Could the other accused also have had gloves on during the murder? possibly IMO.
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No, I can't become a forensics expert and discard Hendry. I am relying on Hendry as an accomplished and recognized expert.

If AK and RS were not in the room when RG killed MK, then why have they been convicted of murder? How was this sex game supposed to work? Somehow I don't see the thrill if AK and RS hid in another room while RG attacked the victim.

And if you're going to blame clean-up, then we're back to waiting for you to explain how AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their own involvement while magically leaving traces of RG behind. Even if they wore gloves, that doesn't explain the lack of hairs, for example.

Given the number of wounds and the several places blood was left (see Hendry), there was apparently quite a bit of movement going on in the room. Where were AK and RS while this was going on, in your view?
 
Nova said:
No, I can't become a forensics expert and discard Hendry. I am relying on Hendry as an accomplished and recognized expert.

If AK and RS were not in the room when RG killed MK, then why have they been convicted of murder? How was this sex game supposed to work? Somehow I don't see the thrill if AK and RS hid in another room while RG attacked the victim.

And if you're going to blame clean-up, then we're back to waiting for you to explain how AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their own involvement while magically leaving traces of RG behind. Even if they wore gloves, that doesn't explain the lack of hairs, for example.

Given the number of wounds and the several places blood was left (see Hendry), there was apparently quite a bit of movement going on in the room. Where were AK and RS while this was going on, in your view?
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Nobody asked you to become an expert... only for your opinion.
<mod edit>
Nobody said they (AK and RS) 'were not in the room' when Meredith was killed... more of that famed twisting.
Same for the 'sex game' quote. Where was that mentioned in my post?
<mod edit>
Why does there have to be 'hairs' in the room? Did Meredith pull their hair?

The number of wounds is not relevant to where each one was and what movement was going on IMO. The number of wounds points to more than one attacker instead as I see it.
 
dgfred said:
Nobody asked you to become an expert... only for your opinion.
<mod edit>
Nobody said they (AK and RS) 'were not in the room' when Meredith was killed... more of that famed twisting.
Same for the 'sex game' quote. Where was that mentioned in my post?
<mod edit>
Why does there have to be 'hairs' in the room? Did Meredith pull their hair?

The number of wounds is not relevant to where each one was and what movement was going on IMO. The number of wounds points to more than one attacker instead as I see it.
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I am relying on an experienced and credentialed expert in Hendry. He's only one of many who've come to the same conclusion, but he has explained his views at some length and we have those sites.

I have no idea why you think you are entitled to ban him from the discussion simply because you don't like his conclusions.

There's no "twisting" here except that necessary to convict AK and RS of murder based on a theory that makes no sense and without corroborating forensics to go with a couple of coerced and later recanted statements.

As you know perfectly well, I didn't invent the "sex games gone wrong" theory. Mignini did, though later he had to back off from it because there is simply no evidence. No credible motive for murder has ever been offered in its place.

Had AK and RS been in a small room where MK was bleeding to death and struggling with her assailant, there should be evidence of four people present at the time. There is not.

Nor is it possible to clean away the evidence (DNA, hairs, etc.) of two people while leaving volumes of DNA, hair, blood, etc., from two others.
 
Hi everyone-please stop telling each other how to post and what to post. Thank you!
 
Oh well :truce: . :seeya:


March 26
April 16
May 9, 21
 
dgfred said:
Oh well :truce: . :seeya:


March 26
April 16
May 9, 21
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No problem, fred. Among the main participants in this thread, I think everyone knows where everyone else stands. Taking a break from the discussion shouldn't be interpreted as a "concession" of any kind.

We'll all have new things to say when the appellate court makes its ruling...

In the meantime, I'd like to give a shout out to everyone who helped me learn about this case. That includes the "guilties" every bit as much as the "innocents." Not since Jon-Benet Ramsey back in the 90s have I learned so many details about forensics, times and testimonies.

And on a general note, let me say that I don't put this much energy into arguing with posters unless I respect them very, very much. (Yeah, that means you, too, otto. Especially you.)
 
Nova said:
No, I can't become a forensics expert and discard Hendry. I am relying on Hendry as an accomplished and recognized expert.

If AK and RS were not in the room when RG killed MK, then why have they been convicted of murder? How was this sex game supposed to work? Somehow I don't see the thrill if AK and RS hid in another room while RG attacked the victim.

And if you're going to blame clean-up, then we're back to waiting for you to explain how AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their own involvement while magically leaving traces of RG behind. Even if they wore gloves, that doesn't explain the lack of hairs, for example.

Given the number of wounds and the several places blood was left (see Hendry), there was apparently quite a bit of movement going on in the room. Where were AK and RS while this was going on, in your view?
Click to expand...

Ron Hendry is a retired accident reconstructionist. His training is as a mechanical engineer. I'm not convinced that a mechanical engineer that specializes in accident reconstruction is the best guy to analyze a murder scene. In fact, he has no expertise whatsoever in crime scene analysis. Wouldn't it be better to rely on the analysis offered by the experts that testified during the trial?

As for the room, Candace Dempsey has posted on her opinion blog that Meredith's bedroom was no bigger than a postage stamp. If we are to believe that, of course no one could fit in the room. No one could have murdered Meredith in her bedroom according to Dempsey's opinion.
 
Nova said:
No problem, fred. Among the main participants in this thread, I think everyone knows where everyone else stands. Taking a break from the discussion shouldn't be interpreted as a "concession" of any kind.

We'll all have new things to say when the appellate court makes its ruling...

In the meantime, I'd like to give a shout out to everyone who helped me learn about this case. That includes the "guilties" every bit as much as the "innocents." Not since Jon-Benet Ramsey back in the 90s have I learned so many details about forensics, times and testimonies.

And on a general note, let me say that I don't put this much energy into arguing with posters unless I respect them very, very much. (Yeah, that means you, too, otto. Especially you.)
Click to expand...

I needed to take a break from the discussion ... it can be a bit frustrating discussing the validity of an opinion posted on a blog (Candace Dempsey). She can write whatever she wants. She is not blogging as a reporter, and is not held to any journalistic standard when she posts on her blog. Her opinions about the murder and the movie are no more significant than any opinions posted here, yet she seems to be held up as writing facts. Similarly, we have the accident reconstructionist who is held up as a forensic expert, yet he is a retired mechanical engineer with no forensic expertise in criminal investigations. The writings of Candace Dempsey would never be published in the newspaper as informative or factual, and expertise of Hendry would never be introduced in a criminal trial anywhere. Why are these two characters given so much credit?
 
Nova said:
If that is true, I don't see how RS and AK could have participated in the murder. RS was on his computer until 9:46. It was roughly a 10-minute walk to the cottage and a 10-minute walk to the disposal site. (We'll call the latter a "5-minute" walk since the phone was only part way there.)

That's still 15 minutes spent walking out of a total of 27 minutes between RS' last computer usage and MK's phone receiving a call while en route to the disposal site. During that same 27 minutes presumably MK was killed.

In other words, RS had 12 minutes to decide to help and to carry out the torture and murder of MK with a girl (AK) he'd known for a week and a man (RG) he'd never met. This doesn't pass even a comic-book probability test. (ETA and of course we haven't even begun to talk about the time it took MK to die after being stabbed, time one expects would be subtracted from the 12 minutes.)
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IRRC, Raffaele's computer registered that the movie ended at about 9:15 PM, but there was no activity in terms of human interaction until the following morning around 6 when someone tuned into some music. The prosecution believes that the lovebirds went out before the movie ended.

The time of death has moved a bit from sometime between 9 and 10, to as late as about 11:30.
 
Nova said:
But it is a fact that innocent people are convicted. Alarmingly often, as it turns out. So the constant repetition that the judges and jury reached a certain decision proves what, exactly?
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Hasn't the innocence project dropped Knox from their website?
 
Allusonz said:
Then if he is a hired gun for the defense why did he not testify at the trial?

Yes he is very respected, and yes they are hired for a purpose, but if they are hired then they testify for the client
Click to expand...

If there's a car crash, he's a good guy to bring in to give an opinion about who swerved, or who hit the breaks. How does that translate to an expertise in blood spatter analysis?
 
Nova said:
No problem, fred. Among the main participants in this thread, I think everyone knows where everyone else stands. Taking a break from the discussion shouldn't be interpreted as a "concession" of any kind.

We'll all have new things to say when the appellate court makes its ruling...

In the meantime, I'd like to give a shout out to everyone who helped me learn about this case. That includes the "guilties" every bit as much as the "innocents." Not since Jon-Benet Ramsey back in the 90s have I learned so many details about forensics, times and testimonies.

And on a general note, let me say that I don't put this much energy into arguing with posters unless I respect them very, very much. (Yeah, that means you, too, otto. Especially you.)
Click to expand...
I think it is normal for people that are okay ("the okayers") with a verdict to move on after following a case. At least, I am not planning to stick around for the next 20 years discussing this case. The people who don't agree with the verdict will probably stick around longer. IMO. I am still following the appeals somewhat but not nearly as much as the first trial.

Besides that I don't see the point of repeating the same issues over and over, but will see if the appeals bring anything new. So far, I don't really have any opinion about disco buses :)
 
Nova said:
I agree the real case is in Perugia. But whether the scene was processed by "experts" is open to debate. Even I know better than to pass around an item of evidence before placing the item back on the floor to be photographed.

Hendry is willing to stake his considerable reputation on his reconstruction of the crime. That doesn't make him infallible, but I don't see him as a paid shill for the Knox family.

But whatever we think of Hendry, insisting that four people struggled in that room stretches the imagination, especially since only two of them (MK and RG) ended up with significant injuries.
Click to expand...

Do you really think that a retired mechanical engineer that specialized in accident reconstruction is a better expert than a crime scene analyst?
 
sherlockh said:
I think it is normal for people that are okay ("the okayers") with a verdict to move on after following a case. At least, I am not planning to stick around for the next 20 years discussing this case. The people who don't agree with the verdict will probably stick around longer. IMO. I am still following the appeals somewhat but not nearly as much as the first trial.

Besides that I don't see the point of repeating the same issues over and over, but will see if the appeals bring anything new. So far, I don't really have any opinion about disco buses :)
Click to expand...

One of the disco people has been fined 200 euros for not showing up for court, and is required to attend the next session. There has been some suggestion that all the discos were closed on Nov 1. We know that isn't true because Rudy was seen at the disco, dancing until 6 AM, in the hours after the murder.
 
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