IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #15

Holly Bobo's case was similarly handled in that the entire town was allowed to search from the start, all over and through the woods where she was seen to have gone with the abductor, as well as similar in that LE was/continues to be extremely close-mouthed about what was found and where, anything about Holly's life in the days leading up to her abduction, etc...

I've said it before, no LE seems to know exactly how to handle these types of cases and each one becomes a case of trial and error. Each case is so different, and in Lauren's case, I am sure that LE did make assumptions early on that someone knew and would tell what happened to Lauren and where she ended up. They followed a "specific lead" as early as June 5th to search at least one lake. I think they were doing the best they could with what they thought they had.

As far as FBI involvement, we've seen them come in to help, if asked, very early on in some cases. They don't have to have interstate action proven to assist local LE with certain aspects of cases.

JMO

cluciano63 said:

As far as FBI involvement, we've seen them come in to help, if asked, very early on in some cases. They don't have to have interstate action proven to assist local LE with certain aspects of cases.

JMO

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Thank you. Yes, I know they are involved. The limits of their involvement are what I am curious about. What are the aspects they can help with, vs. what are they limited in doing until evidence of a Federal Crime arises.

Its my understanding their hands are tied in many aspects until such evidence becomes evident?

I've said from the beginning that BPD doesn't have the experience to handle such a case, and I dont think they were as thorough as they should have been in the beginning.

I remember when I was about 19, there was a woman who was murdered at a dry cleaners at about 7:30am. The next morning, the police department had a road block set up and stopped every single car that came through to see if they were driving the same route the morning before. Since I drove that route at that time every day they asked me too, unfortunately I couldn't provide them with any information, because I didn't see anything.

But this is what the BPD should have been doing. Asking everyone in the area immediately if they had any information, if they saw or heard anything, etc.

It seems like they're just working off of tips and general knowledge that everyone already knows about or can be proven on camera. Not fine investigative work if you ask me.

They roadblocked College Ave and grilled random motorists for any info a week after the disappearance, so it seems a bit puzzling that they would take that step before they would talk to people living in the surrounding area.

Maybe LE will react to the article...maybe they will release more information, if they have any.

Btown said:

Thank you. Yes, I know they are involved. The limits of their involvement are what I am curious about. What are the aspects they can help with, vs. what are they limited in doing until evidence of a Federal Crime arises.

Its my understanding their hands are tied in many aspects until such evidence becomes evident?

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Perhaps I found part of the answer to my own question.

FBI.gov/FAQ's

If a child is missing and possibly kidnapped, but no interstate transportation is known, will the FBI begin an investigation?

Yes. The FBI will initiate a kidnapping investigation involving a missing child "of tender years," even though there is no known interstate aspect. "Tender years" is generally defined as a child 12 years or younger. The FBI will monitor other kidnapping situations when there is no evidence of interstate travel, and it offers assistance from various entities including the FBI Laboratory.

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bx2 said:

They roadblocked College Ave and grilled random motorists for any info a week after the disappearance, so it seems a bit puzzling that they would take that step before they would talk to people living in the surrounding area.

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That's the kind of thing I found to be more of a PR move than a true investigative tool. And the local media ate that up -- it was the lead that day.

Takes the focus off drugs, underage drinking, Kilroy's and questions about the real investigation.

bessie said:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110702/LOCAL/107020344/4-weeks-no-answers?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

Comments?

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I'm afraid I take exception to the paragraph below:

Two recent searches would have gone unnoticed and unmentioned except for the fact a Bloomington Herald-Times photographer happened upon the scene and took a picture of the search dogs.

On Wednesday, police searched Rosenbaum's Bloomington apartment, according to the Herald-Times.

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I saw the reporters standing on the corner ready to take pics. It appeared to me they were aware of what was about to transpire, and were waiting. Someone tipped them of what was going on so they could report on it IMO.

Another attempt at grandstanding, trying to make LE look like they were doing a through and professional job, when the reality is this should have been performed within hours.

And then people say, that innocent persons should talk to LE since they have nothing to hide? Well in case like this, there is no body, obviously not enough evidence to arrest anyone. But I presume LE still wants to solve the case.

northsider said:

Thanks for reminding us of this. They waited until June 14th to start canvassing? That's insane.

Given that it took them 9 days to bring in the State Police, it makes me wonder if they only started canvassing as a result of that.

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What would be the reasoning, if any, on why they would wait that long to canvas? Everyone forgot? They thought it better to have everyone concentrating on a different area of the investigation?

Not arguing that it did or didn't happen, just honestly curious at why this is so believable.

Edit- thought of another *possible* rationale, that they were relying way too heavily on neighbors and surrounding businesses to come to them?

June 8, 2011, last update: 6/9 @ 7:44 am

“Every place in the city has been covered by officers,” Parker said.

“We want to extend it beyond city limits,” he said of continued searches by police.

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Divers with the Monroe County Sheriff’s Office set out Wednesday to comb Lake Monroe’s nearly 24,000 acres using a boat and sonar technology. They began at Fairfax reservoir around 4:30 p.m. Sheriff Jim Kennedy said the team was not searching on a tip, but to help with the overall investigation.

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Just snipping a few items from the first week. This report also says Team Adam from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) were assisting in setting up searches "beyond city limits".

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/08/news.549686.sto

Will be back with more.

Btown, I remember the post you referenced very well. My impression was the investigators had been on the scene.

bx2 said:

What would be the reasoning, if any, on why they would wait that long to canvas? Everyone forgot? They thought it better to have everyone concentrating on a different area of the investigation?

Not arguing that it did or didn't happen, just honestly curious at why this is so believable.

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From the press reports and the people I talked to who took part in the initial searches, it seemed like BPD was almost singularly focused on the missing person via abduction angle --- probably because the statements they'd gotten from the people around LS all said that she just disappeared without trace.

After a week had passed, it almost seemed as if they realized that this might not be what happened --- whether that was through a tip, through video evidence, or through the introduction of external investigators (like, say, Indiana State Police) who started asking whether certain things had or hadn't been investigated.

I really do wonder at what point the investigators figured out that they needed to start treating this as a friend-related investigation. I'd like to think it was right away, but the way the stories and evidence have come out, it sure seems like it took at least a week, maybe more.

I think LE was searching the streets literally the first days, thinking they would stumble upon Lauren...and by the time they had done their searching, it was clear she was not going to be found easily and that a simple explanation of what happened was not forthcoming.

I watch First 48-Missing Persons sometimes and it is based on Chicago Missing Persons LE...they know how to deal with MP cases as they have a unit just for that, as most large cities do. The first thing they do is head to the "hood" and knock on doors, while other officers interview the friends and family.

I am not sure knocking on doors would have mattered much here, anyway. Lauren's disappearance was pretty big news by early Saturday morning, people probably started coming forward if they thought they had seen her. Still, it is an error if they did not do this basic task.

Biggest problem with missing persons cases is not knowing what you have; i.e. LE in Portland searched for Kyron as though he had walked off, for more than a week. Every case is unique and most LEA is just not prepared to handle them. There is no easy answer. FBI came in to help LE in Portland as early as the first day, yet that case is no closer to being solved, after a year+, no one has been named or charged, and the victim remains missing.

More failures than successes in MP cases, as far as LE goes, IMO...people get found but hardly ever by them...

bessie said:

Btown, I remember the post you referenced very well. My impression was the investigators had been on the scene.

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Please allow me to try and clarify.

The area had been canvased by searchers and LE looking in public areas, and the relevant buildings involved, (Smallwood, 5 North, 10th & College apts) of course.

The 14th is the day the LE began to canvas the neighborhood door-to-door asking individuals and businesses if they had any info, and if they could provide any video.

I work in the neighborhood, was out taking photos as this door-to-door canvassing began on the 14th, and know the LE did not come door-to-door asking for info and video prior, (other than the aforementioned relevant buildings) to the best of my knowledge. They finally came to where I work on the 14th approx. 7pm. We were closed, but someone just happened to be there to answer their questions.

Okay, I gotcha, Btown. For the record, I don't doubt you for a moment.

Snipped from the police timeline:

June 4 — day 2
The Bloomington Police Department releases initial information about Lauren and searches for her throughout the city using K9 units.

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June 7 — day 5
8:30 p.m. — Police serve a search warrant at Smallwood Plaza...

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This is when they broke in and confiscated the cameras and computers

June 8 — day 6
Parker also says the entire city has now been searched...

The National Center of Missing and Exploited Children and the FBI begin helping the BPD.

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June 11 — Day 9
11:30 a.m. — BPD Capt. Joe Qualters begins conducting the press conferences.
Police ask area businesses to turn over any video footage they may have from near the area of Lauren’s disappearance...

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This is when they made a public request for video, but apparently they didn't canvas businesses requesting video until three days later on June 14th.

June 12 — Day 10
Throughout the day, investigators fly over the Bloomington area, looking at water ways, railroad tracks and rooftops.

June 13 — Day 11
The FBI begins enhancing a video showing the vehicle near the intersection where Lauren was last seen.

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More at the link
http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81967

Good grief, everything took too long...

Hi, I've been lurking for awhile.

I know until the case is solved, JW will remain a POI. However, I was thinking his actions might be understandable under certain circumstances. With the drug speculation, perhaps LS had drugs in her possession? Certainly, if she abused drugs at all, I would think that her boyfriend would be somewhat aware and perhaps know where she kept them? Also, I remember earlier in the case, people speculated that was the reason for the return to Smallwood? Perhaps she took more than she could handle, and JW was able to deduce that she probably took a lot more than usual, especially if rumors amongst her friends had already started and he had been among the first to hear. Or, perhaps she hadn't taken her medication and he noticed this as well. I just think there's plenty of things that he could have noticed that were unusual for her just by looking at her phone or her room, since he was the one who picked up her phone and he checked her apartment first before calling her parents. Obviously, he also could have used this to his own advantage if he were involved, but I honestly feel he is a victim himself. I see nothing wrong with him privately grieving, and I think things might be different if the disappearance had occurred closer to their hometown. It sounds like most of those close with LS have assumed the worst, and he needs his family too for support. Remember, JW DID call her parents. I see no reason to believe that he may have tried to reach out to them, privately. I also see why the parents might not want him involved right now... something happened to LS and there seems to be no strong consensus on what exactly happened/who was involved.



Also, I think CR's memory loss is convenient as well. Someone mentioned that bars normally don't let you in if you appear too wasted. If true, and especially if they had suspicions/knowledge of her being underage, I also don't think they would let her in if she was stumbling/extremely out of it already. Some have speculated that she was roofied. I think that is definitely a possibility, and hopefully the bar has some video inside. I go to a Big 10 university nearby, and I know some of the frats here are rumored to drug girls at parties. Some girls in the other sororities have told me some pretty horrible stories about going to parties and not remembering a single thing after only a few drinks. It sounds like JR was part of a frat that had been banned for similar reasons/done some pretty shady things. Maybe he paid CR to put roofies in her drink? Perhaps this, drinking, other alleged drug abuse, and her heart condition led to things getting out of hand fairly quickly, especially since it sounds like JW was the only one aware of her condition. That would explain why he doesn't remember anything, specifically some of his time at the bar, and would also explain how LS got so supposedly wasted in such a short time period. It would also explain why CR/MB/JR would possibly work together, and why CR & MB would get the "easier" parts (amnesia/homework/"we weren't the last to see her"). It could also explain why, if LS never made it to 5 North, JR would take the heat. I've never heard of someone paying someone to roofie someone for them, but who knows. This whole case is strange.

Praying for Lauren.

As we are going back to the first days -- something that has always bothered me.
The whole business ABOUT police having to use A battering ram to get into Smallwood.

Police say they asked for the video. Smallwood refused, saying they'd like to see a search warrant. Even when the search warrant is produced -- nobody from Smallwood is on hand with a key, so cops break down the door. Then the spokesman for Smallwood puts out a self-serving statement saying that they are doing all they can to help police. Qualters is then asked why this Kabuki dance had to take place in order to get the video hard drives. He says firmly that he doesn't know the answer to that.

Have you ever heard of a business refusing to give cops access to surveillance in a criminal investigation...unless of course the business is a target? When have you heard the deli owner, that gas station or apartment building refusing such a request. Was it just this case that they demanded a warrant? If there had been a multiple shooting with eight dead in a hallway, would they comply without a warrant? What about a terrorist attack?

THIS WAS SIMPLY TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ABOUT A MISSING GIRL WHO HAPPENED TO LIVE IN THEIR BUILDING! And nobody presses the issue.

TonyGatto said:

As we are going back to the first days -- something that has always bothered me.
The whole business ABOUT police having to use A battering ram to get into Smallwood.

Police say they asked for the video. Smallwood refused, saying they'd like to see a search warrant. Even when the search warrant is produced -- nobody from Smallwood is on hand with a key, so cops break down the door. Then the spokesman for Smallwood puts out a self-serving statement saying that they are doing all they can to help police. Qualters is then asked why this Kabuki dance had to take place in order to get the video hard drives. He says firmly that he doesn't know the answer to that.

Have you ever heard of a business refusing to give cops access to surveillance in a criminal investigation...unless of course the business is a target? When have you heard the deli owner, that gas station or apartment building refusing such a request. Was it just this case that they demanded a warrant? If there had been a multiple shooting with eight dead in a hallway, would they comply without a warrant? What about a terrorist attack?

THIS WAS SIMPLY TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ABOUT A MISSING GIRL WHO HAPPENED TO LIVE IN THEIR BUILDING! And nobody presses the issue.

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CYA, imo. CR was on a "no trespass" list. He shouldn't have been there. They goofed and were scrambling around trying to assess their risk exposure before they went any further in cooperating with LE requests.

Also, didn't they claim someone in management was on vacation?

June 10, 2011 (three days after BPD busted in)

Apartments spokesman Ernie Reno said Rossman was not supposed to be allowed in the building.

“We do have a ‘no trespass‘ list that does exist,” he said. “There is a list of people who have historically caused problems here and our security folks keep track of them.”

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http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/list-prevented-prespierer-disappearance-fight/

TonyGatto said:

As we are going back to the first days --
something that has always bothered me.
The whole business ABOUT police having to use A battering ram to get
into Smallwood. . .

Click to expand...

TonyGatto said:

. . .Have you ever heard of a business refusing to give cops access
to surveillance in a criminal investigation...unless of course the business is
a target? . . .

Click to expand...

I too wondered about that at first but figured that LE would get to the
bottom of it if it was anything sinister.

On the other hand, if not something sinister it could be:
A case of big frog/small puddle. People having
convinced themselves that they are not under jusrisdiction of
local law enforcement any longer.

Or
It could be they were afraid of appearing too eager to turn over the
video to LE and cause the college age people to feel uncomfortable
living in the building any longer if they feel their every movement
is under constant watch by those that would turn every little thing into
LE. Making LE break down a door might seem an easy way out of the
dilema. LE gets the video but the apartments seem like they aren't
overly eager to turn in things.