Identified! IN - Hammond, Bones found buried, gold ring, Oct'11 - Francine Carlson

Claudette said:

The bait and tackle shop was open at the time when Doreen disappeared, correct? The "open 24 hours" thing makes it hard for me to think this is her (willing to be wrong of course) though. Yes, an employee could be the perp but why would she go to a bait and tackle store after going out to a bar?

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She might have met the store owner (or an employee of the store) at the bar, and agreed to meet him there after leaving the bar. Or perhaps, he killed her somewhere else, and brought the body to the most convenient and private location that he knew of. The Google Maps overhead view of the store shows an alley behind the store, and plenty of trees in the yard at the rear of the property. That would enable the person to carry a body from a vehicle to the building unnoticed.

On the possibility the ring was actually a communion or confirmation ring, Barbara Gleuckert went missing from Mt. Prospect, but was last seen in Huntley, IL in August of 1976.

She had long dark hair. Her perp, now deceased, sent someone a note saying he had "put a girl in the ground".

Barbara is a 1976 graduate of St. Raymond Catholic Grade school.

While there is no mention of a ring at her Charley project or NamUs profiles, and Huntley is semi far from Hammond, her perp had access to a vehicle from the time Barbara went missing at appx 11pm Saturday evening until late Monday afternoon. So the timeline is quite wide with the distance he could have traveled to bury her, as he had 40 hours or so unaccounted for after Barbara's disappearance.

Info on the timeline regarding the perps access to a vehicle is per a conversation I had with the detective handling Barbara's case a few years ago.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/glueckert_barbara.html





ETA: While Barbara's Charley page indicates she was seperated from her friends between 7-8pm the evening she disappeared, the detective informed me there were credible witnesses stating they saw Barbara leaving the party/concert with the perp between 11-midnight the evening she disappeared.

CarlK90245 said:

Veronica Blumhorst has a similar ring on her right hand.

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I went ahead and called-in a tip for Veronica. I spoke with Lt. Fulk. He said that he had a message from Mendota Police that he has not yet returned, so it is probably regarding Veronica.

At the beginning of the call I mentioned Doreen, saying that if she doesn't pan-out then I had another name that he might want to look into. He replied that we shouldn't necessarily presume that Doreen is our person.

I agree Veronica's ring is very similiar to the ring found with the UID. Though, it appears in Veronika's HS graduation photo she had braces. I assume she had her braces removed prior to her disappearance because none are mentioned in any of her MP pages. I'd assume her upper teeth would be very straight. The upper teeth on the UID did not appear very straight.

Carl, thoughts on the teeth on the UID from what we can tell from the slide show photo's? Or do you think it is too soon to tell, and possible some were lost or moved post mortem. Can teeth move but not fall out post mortem?

tia

Cubby said:

I agree Veronica's ring is very similiar to the ring found with the UID. Though, it appears in Veronika's HS graduation photo she had braces. I assume she had her braces removed prior to her disappearance because none are mentioned in any of her MP pages. I'd assume her upper teeth would be very straight. The upper teeth on the UID did not appear very straight.

Carl, thoughts on the teeth on the UID from what we can tell from the slide show photo's? Or do you think it is too soon to tell, and possible some were lost or moved post mortem. Can teeth move but not fall out post mortem?

tia

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I don't think she was still wearing braces at the time she disappeared. And although it looks like she was wearing braces in the pink dress photo, it isn't conclusive. She is not wearing braces in the B&W photo in her Charley casefile, and she has fairly crooked teeth, just as it appears from the photos of the skull.

No, but teeth can move as soon as the braces come off if you don't wear your retainer (ask me how I know this - better yet, ask my son-who-I-spent-a-fortune-on-his-mouth!)

I looked at a map and Mendota is much closer to Hammond than I originally thought.

mendota il - Google Maps

Rt 34, which can be seen on the above map would take one directly east to a number of toll or major highways to Hammond. I-39 and I -80 are also not far from Mendota. 80 would take one towards Hammond. (80 would be a little further south on the above link).

What's hard for me to imagine is why someone would take their victim from a very rural area to a highly populated city for disposal. seems like there would be less of a chance of getting caught staying in a rural area...

Any of the out-of-town missing persons make sense to me as possibilities if a perpetrator had some kind of ties to Hammond. Otherwise, they seem unlikely and it makes more sense to me that it would be someone local.

MarthaM said:

Any of the out-of-town missing persons make sense to me as possibilities if a perpetrator had some kind of ties to Hammond. Otherwise, they seem unlikely and it makes more sense to me that it would be someone local.

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I agree.

Though, with Veronica's case and Mendota being so close to 39 and 80 both of those routes would be used by a lot of truckers. As would 34 if a trucker was passing through using 34. What throws me off with this possible scenario is the time Veronica went missing. It was later in the evening after work, IIRC. What are the odds an over the road trucker with ties to Hammond would happen upon her later in the evening?

I do think the ring similiarities do make this possible. We just don't yet have a better description of the ring and we don't know if it was a mass produced ring or a highly common ring. It could be a ring that was fairly inexpensive and quite popular among teenage girls or girls in their early 20's.

I sure wish we had a clean photo of the ring.

STANDREID said:

Veronica Blumhorst missing from Mendota IL in 1990?

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Thanks Carl - I'll keep my fingers crossed. I believe an acquaintance was the main person of interest in that case but they could have been barking up the wrong tree.

Veronica's car was found in her apartment buildings parking garage, correct?
I wonder if any of the residents or anyone tied to one of the residents at the time she disappeared had ties to Hammond.

Her car was at her parents' house where she lived. She had just gotten home from work at a grocery store but never made it into the house as far as anyone could determine. Was she followed there?

There is a thread on here about her case somewhere.

webrocket said:

it was in my post #24 on this thread:


Whiting and Hammond are 2 different towns I googled "Great Lakes Bait and Tackle" and came up with an address of 1718 Indianapolis Blvd in Whiting, not Hammond. the former owner-operator of the Whiting store passed away earlier this year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwi...&pid=147661791

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Well, no wonder he couldn't be reached for comment. :angel:

Webrocket, the link's not working, so I don't know if it's the same person named in this article.

G P of Lansing, Ill., was the owner of the property, according to the Lake County Auditor’s records. Neighbors said P operated the bait shop with a brother from 1982 until its closure around 2001. P could not be reached for comment.

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http://posttrib.suntimes.com/photos...-search-for-clues-about-hammond-skeleton.html

since he is deceased I don't think the same privacy rules apply about naming people. it was a matter of common knowledge in the area who owned the store even if someone else is listed as the current owner of record of the land.

here is the link again:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwitimes/obituary.aspx?n=john-h-newton&pid=147661791

his name was John H. Newton and he passed away on January 4, 2011 at the age of 61.

webrocket said:

since he is deceased I don't think the same privacy rules apply about naming people. it was a matter of common knowledge in the area who owned the store even if someone else is listed as the current owner of record of the land.

here is the link again:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nwitimes/obituary.aspx?n=john-h-newton&pid=147661791

his name was John H. Newton and he passed away on January 4, 2011 at the age of 61.

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ETA: the obit says the store was in Whiting. I am assume we are talking about the same business here.

I'm not sure but it looks like it was in Whiting.

Hi everyone! I have been following this story since it first posted in my local newspaper. I live nearby in Lansing, IL and have roots in this Whiting/Hammond/Robertsdale area. My father lived in Whiting and we frequented the area a lot. I know I have been in that bait shop several times as my dad was an avid fisherman and we fished out of Lake Michigan there.

First of all, I am not sure what the "address" is but I would call this WHITING. Indianapolis Blvd. goes north... It comes from East Chicago, INDIANA, continues into Whiting and only for a few miles is it actually considered Hammond and then moves on into the east side of Chicago. I believe the local people also refer to this as part of "Robertsdale". No matter, the building is the building. But if you are looking at local businesses and the area.. I think you should be considering the area Whiting.

Secondly, I haven't seen this link on there yet. It is the link from the NWITIMES.com newspaper. It shows a pretty good close picture of the skull, some fingers and the ring. Which to me ( a nobody ), this skull looks old... old...

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/...3-74d9-5887-97e4-e40a54a13e86.html?mode=story

I have been googling around and doing some research myself. I sure wish my dad was still alive, because he was a Whiting native and frequented the Bait Shop and knew everyone at the local pubs, etc.

Anyway, if the man that actually ran and owned the shop was this JN, in his obit they mentioned his daughter, K, which had been deceased before him. I did find out that she went to Hammond High School. Which means to me, that at least she didn't live in that "Whiting" area. She had to have lived in Hammond area (which isn't necessarily far, just that she would've went to whiting high). I guess it is irrelevant info, but being from this area, was just knowledge of the family.

Also, FYI, Whiting has a gazillion pubs.. 50ish, at least there used to be that many. There are several within the local mile there, so this could be tied to any of those pubs!

And lastly, this area is a stone's throw from the east side of Chicago. The east side has never been a place you want to go.. unless, you wanted to buy beer on Sunday. So if it was a hang out after having been closed down and the locals were able to get in and out of the building, then.. anyone could've had access to that crawl space.

Sorry if I have burdened you guys with irrelevant junk, but I thought it may be helpful in considering all of the facts.

webrocket said:

ETA: the obit says the store was in Whiting. I am assume we are talking about the same business here.

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Newspaper articles from 1993 show a different owner/operator. Same last name as the one mentioned in the "bones" article, but first name is different.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ing&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I'm not sleuthing this person, just trying to figure out the discrepancy between the name mentioned in the article and the obit you found. It's certainly possible there was more than one owner over the years.

Welcome to Websleuths, chmiller. Glad you joined us, and thanks for the information. Please stick around. I'm sure we'll have more questions.

I was sleuthing both names... just wondering about criminal histories. lol..