Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

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To Kill a Mockingbird said:
i believe shannan was 6 years old (or 7 years old) when all four children were removed from mari gilberts household. the 3 younger children (*sherre, sarra, stevie*) were returned and shannan was not.

i'd like to address the person who quoted the SCPD (detective?) who wrote (newsday?) saying he heard shannan's 911 call and she was calm and not screaming they're trying to kill me - IF SHE WAS SO CALM DUDE WHY DONT YOU RELEASE THE CALL TO THE FAMILY AND/OR MARI'S LAWYER
and LET US LISTEN TO IT SO WE CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH YOU ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

we are waiting for TWO things
a) medical examiners analysis and report
b) the 911 call

without both of the above 2 items

we are stumbling around in the dark.
Click to expand...
They dont care about releasing the 9-11 call to you and I, nor should they. It is an ongoing investigation and things like that should not be made public at this time. There may be things in the call they need to keep under wraps for various reasons.
 
FYI I repost this post I posted back in December 15th 2011.
(Unfortunatly, now the link only show part of the newsreport, one has to pay to read the entire newsreport):



They CAN find out wheter Shannan Gilbert drowned or not, even if it is only skeleton remains. Read Dr. Badens explanation on this + more in this link:

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking...eath-1.3388774

Here is a quote concerning drowning:

The examination of skeletal human remains found Tuesday near Oak Beach, besides determining whether they belong to a missing Jersey City woman, can also point to the cause of death, an expert said.

Key forensic clues can survive in bones and teeth even over the 19 months the remains -- if they are Shannan Gilbert's -- would have been exposed to the elements, said Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner.

Police theorize Gilbert drowned in a wetland thicket. Baden said water contains diatoms, a type of phytoplankton that if inhaled, can later be detected in bone marrow.

"If they are present and they match what's found in the water, that will indicate she was alive and breathing when she went into the water," he said.

Other causes, such as strangulation, may be difficult to determine. The soft tissue around the windpipe deteriorates faster than bone, Baden said, but fractures of tiny bones could still be indicators.

Baden said the bone marrow could also detect if drugs or alcohol were in the body's system before it expired, because the drugs would actually stay in the marrow and not be metabolized. "Once you die, metabolizing stops," he said.
 
Theforeigner-thanks for reposting this, I'd forgotten about the specifics on what her bone marrow could reveal. The autopsy should give us a definitive answer on the drowning status as well as how long she was in the water. That'll end the mystery.

MOO
 
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.
 
MrsPC said:
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.
Click to expand...

I just have to thank you MrsPC. I have taken a step back from this case in order to clear my head and rethink just the facts and this is the only logical theory that makes sense to me. I also have changed my mind and feel Shannan's death was likely accidental. Although her belongings being found quite a distance away from her body is perplexing. I question if SG was even wearing her pants & shoes or carrying them when she ran from JB's house. MP added that little tidbit 'she was fully clothed' when recounting entering JB's residence that night which struck me as odd. (I will look for a link) And where is her blond wig? Or am I misremembering her wearing a blonde wig? Geesh so many questions..

That is a great catch you made on Malia and Blue searching for Melissa, NOT Shannan. (I would love a link if you have it!) I always wondered why Malia and Blue were searching away from where Shannan was last seen.

As far as JB, MP & CPH, I don't believe a word they say as JB and MP were involved in criminal activity that night so I expect them to cover their butts. Irt CPH, well, we know he has a documented history of allegedly telling tall tales. IMO, JB & MP are in cahoots. I wish I could find the link but IIRC someone posted Suffolk Co./Oak Beach minutes of a meeting which updated the case and revealed that JB contacted MP to set up the appt with Shannan. If anyone has a link to this info, I would appreciate if you would post it again as I didn't save it. Thanks!

All MOO!

wm
 
I misspoke - it was Waterman that Mallia was searching for per this article:

Long Island Advance, The (Patchogue, NY) - November 10, 2011

Police dog wins honors, American Kennel Club Award goes to Gilgo Beach canine
When 22-year-old Megan Waterman went missing in the summer of 2010 Suffolk County Police officer John Mallia and his cadaver sniffing dog, Blue, were called upon to look for the woman's remains.On a personal hunch, Mallia and Blue searched a desolate stretch of Long Island waterfront land known as Gilgo Beach. What they found was far more gruesome and disturbing than they ever had imagined."We found one body, and then a couple of days later they called us...

Purchase Complete Article, of 806 words (at www.newslibrary.com)
 
Her BF breaking her jaw has nothing to do with this discussion, that is called hyperbole.

Paximus it has a lot to do with this discussion, as it sheds light on the character of these people around SG. AD admits he broke her jaw 'by accident' because she attacked him. There is a tendency by the men involved to justify their actions, regardless of the consequences to others.
It may be hyperbole in your eyes, but it is the truth.


I stated what I did after a close examination of the facts of this case and listening to what LE has to say, since they know a lot more than we do and I came to the conclusion that right now at this point the evidence supports her dying in some way not related to murder.


If you are going to listen to LE the case of SG is closed. Dormer said she drowned. He is the top LE official in Suffolk County. He has access to more info than any of us, so he must be right. He has no reason to make that story up



I am not 'blaming the victim.' I also do not know anything about "more MP and JB Bulls--t statements," what I referenced in my post came directly from a statement made by a detective involved in the case who wrote a letter to the editor of a local news publication and who listened to the 9-11 calls himself and concluded what I stated above from them.


If you want to believe MP and JB's statements as the truth and nothing but the truth that is your choice. LE seems to believe them as well. Again I think character is a key factor regarding the veracity of their statements.



I certainly respect those who feel it is a murder case and if it is I hope the that allegedly killed her is brought to justice and punished for his crime, but I also am not going to lose site of the fact that this may not in fact be a murder and it could very well be that she died accidently and as a result of her going in to an irrational frenzy due to her mental illness.


That fact you say she was in an emotional frenzy due to mental illness does not make that fact. Your reference to the LEO who stated he heard the 911 call, claims she was not in a frenzy. You have to be consistent, you cannot choose only parts of statements that agree with your theory.

In short, I am just keeping an open mind.

I could end up being very wrong about that and if I am I will revisit this post and eat my crow accordingly, but at this time I can only go by what the facts in front of me say and those facts do not point to this being a murder case.

I could be very wrong as well, but I believe that is one of the purposes of this forum, to discuss, to analyze and to consider other opinions. However we have a responsibility to each other to be consistent and accurate where possible



Only time will tell.

Unfortunately it may not
 
MrsPC said:
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.
Click to expand...


I agree with the bold, the evidence supports that at this time. Unfortunately the rest of your post I cant agree with given the evidence we have.
 
Thank you for clarifying MrsPC!

I am still looking for the link with Pak's statement mentioned in my above post.

I did find this link wrt GC's description of SG.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

"All of the sudden, bang, bang, bang," Coletti said. "I go over, and I open the door, and she jumps in and says ‘Help me, help me.’ "

When he asked what was wrong, Gilbert just stared at him, he said, remembering that she was wearing a light-colored tank top. He said he dialed 911 on his landline, just steps away, and told her to sit in a chair. But Gilbert bolted for the door, he said, and took off down Sandy Drive, a short, curving road that intersects The Fairway.

Coletti said he walked outside on his deck and saw a dark gray SUV stopping and going along the road. At that point, Coletti saw Gilbert again. She was hiding under a boat in his yard, he said.

The driver, whom Coletti described as an Asian man, asked Coletti if he had seen a woman who left a house party. Coletti says he told the man he had called 911.

The driver’s response, according to Coletti: "You shouldn’t have done that. She’s going to get in a lot of trouble."


above BBM....This is one reason why I question whether SG was fully clothed when she ran from JB's house. Why would GC only mention a tank top in his description of SG? I dunno, maybe incomplete reporting without follow up questions.

MOO

wm

wm
 
MrsPC said:
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.
Click to expand...

Very interesting post MrsPC--So Megan's (per your correction) boyfriend Akeem described the john's house to the police in 2010 and they said they were already aware of him? Hmmm, wow... So Megan used to go to LI with another girl quite often? Do they know who that is? Probably...

This theory of yours on Brewer being the killer of the Gilgo 4 and not Gilbert is fairly compelling to me. However, I'm going back and forth on it. It's a little hard for me to swallow that somebody would be that brazen to kill Megan and Amber so soon after Shannan disappeared. Well, the killer has been characterized as quite the egomaniac and confident in his slyness, maybe he took the risk. He must be one highwire/adrenaline thrillseeker. I would think he'd want to lay low, he had to know that they had him under survelliance...of course then comes questions about what has been (and still is) being swept under the carpet in Oak Beach. I wonder if they've played Brewer's voice for Amanda and the others who've heard the phone call tapes. I really am waiting for the autopsy results--hopefully that'll clear up so many of the questions we have. That is if they release all of the specifics to the public. I'm now wondering how long the police were out at Oak Beach that morning looking for Shannon. Is there any info on what Brewer did that day?

MOO
 
MrsPC said:
.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.
Click to expand...
Do you have a link for this or is it just a rumor that you are repeating?
 
Seaslug44 said:
Do you have a link for this or is it just a rumor that you are repeating?
Click to expand...

<modsnip>

if you look ^ at my post #132 you'll see where I corrected/clarified my post - with the link.

<modsnip>

:what:
 
MrsPC said:
if you look ^ at my post #132 you'll see where I corrected/clarified my post - with the link.
Click to expand...

contradicts a statement in my notes.

"She spent a couple of hours with that client and then she became disoriented, confused. We're not exactly -- what happened, we have some ideas; we believe drugs may have been involved. And that led to a 911 call which went to our operator initially, but she had no idea where she was and all she remembered was Jones Beach on her way out there. And once she relayed that she thought she was at or near Jones Beach, that call was relayed to the New York State Police, and she was on the phone for about 18 minutes and then she was disconnected. That began a very intensive investigation for her disappearance.

Within the ensuing months, numerous canvasses and searches of the area were done to no avail. In December -- again, well publicized -- K-9 Officer John Malia and his dog Blue -- and it has been reported that this was a training -- that he was on training exercise; no. Any time he had free time, he and others would go into that area and search. He went well beyond the area, the immediate area that we thought she could have been, and he discovered human remains on December 11th. On the overview photo I gave you, there's numbers of the bodies and remains that were found; the numbers represent the order that we found them in.

So number one was the first set of remains that John Malia found, and everyone, everyone thought that it was Shannon Gilbert."

Chief Dominick Varrone

http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/clerk/cmeet/ps/2011/PS050511.pdf
 
MrsPC said:
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.
Click to expand...

Excellent work! I love real progress in our research. I knew LE wouldn't be on a "routine training exercise" in a lyme tick infested area!

But I still don't believe that JB was the person who super stealthily picked up the G4 in amazing no strings attached fashion. If the boyfriend really knew where JB's house was it means he too had been there and not just Pak.

I can't reconcile that JB would have 2 separate drivers/pimps/boyfriends know about his house, yet go out of his way to be super stealthy the other times he picked up girls. Those behaviors are completely different.

I think that JB has these party's and there is someone (LISK) who attends some of them, and when he does he offers to hire and pick up the talent himself (he could then also be responsible for "driving them back").
 
rodent69 said:
contradicts a statement in my notes.

"She spent a couple of hours with that client and then she became disoriented, confused. We're not exactly -- what happened, we have some ideas; we believe drugs may have been involved. And that led to a 911 call which went to our operator initially, but she had no idea where she was and all she remembered was Jones Beach on her way out there. And once she relayed that she thought she was at or near Jones Beach, that call was relayed to the New York State Police, and she was on the phone for about 18 minutes and then she was disconnected. That began a very intensive investigation for her disappearance.

Within the ensuing months, numerous canvasses and searches of the area were done to no avail. In December -- again, well publicized -- K-9 Officer John Malia and his dog Blue -- and it has been reported that this was a training -- that he was on training exercise; no. Any time he had free time, he and others would go into that area and search. He went well beyond the area, the immediate area that we thought she could have been, and he discovered human remains on December 11th. On the overview photo I gave you, there's numbers of the bodies and remains that were found; the numbers represent the order that we found them in.

So number one was the first set of remains that John Malia found, and everyone, everyone thought that it was Shannon Gilbert."

Chief Dominick Varrone

http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/clerk/cmeet/ps/2011/PS050511.pdf
Click to expand...

what makes absolutely no sense at all
is WHY malia was searching 3-5 miles AWAY from oak beach
when shannan disappeared between the gate house at oak beach - and brewers house - and gus coletti's house and barbara brennan's house - and somehow hackett put himself right into the thick of things by calling mari - AND sherre gilbert.

shannan disappeared behind the gate at oak beach

why wasnt equisearch called in - to search the marsh?
and why wasnt malia down at oak beach marsh - searching for shannan - why was he in THAT exact location? that location is 3-5 MILES AWAY from the oak beach community that shannan was last alive in.

why wasnt that community searched and research and researched yet again and again and again? ESPECIALLY the marsh lands.
 
Whats funny is we have on these forums talked about this angle before (Malia) it is quiet interesting, sometimes things come full circle?
I am more interested in the info of the bf telling LE about the reg John on LI they knew about. Where is this info, I just dont recall it.
thanks
 
To Kill a Mockingbird said:
what makes absolutely no sense at all
is WHY malia was searching 3-5 miles AWAY from oak beach
when shannan disappeared between the gate house at oak beach - and brewers house - and gus coletti's house and barbara brennan's house - and somehow hackett put himself right into the thick of things by calling mari - AND sherre gilbert.

shannan disappeared behind the gate at oak beach

why wasnt equisearch called in - to search the marsh?
and why wasnt malia down at oak beach marsh - searching for shannan - why was he in THAT exact location? that location is 3-5 MILES AWAY from the oak beach community that shannan was last alive in.

why wasnt that community searched and research and researched yet again and again and again? ESPECIALLY the marsh lands.
Click to expand...

Extremely good points--I finally figured out where the gate was yesterday looking on googlemaps, even though it's fairly obvious. For some reason I thought it was towards the beach, even though that doesn't make alot of sense. That's where she disappeared, right behind it. That's an excellent question, why wasn't equisearch called to look in the marsh? It's really tragic that it was so dark out there, the highway isn't far past the gate. Perhaps she might've flagged someone down, although the traffic then was probably negligible. The only one in a vehicle was Pak. I'm still wondering how he got out through the gate.

MOO
 
the quiet girl said:
Whats funny is we have on these forums talked about this angle before (Malia) it is quiet interesting, sometimes things come full circle?
I am more interested in the info of the bf telling LE about the reg John on LI they knew about. Where is this info, I just dont recall it.
thanks
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...island-serial-killer-victims-secret-life.html

This is the best article I could find about the bf's information. There may be more in the Melissa Barthelemy thread.
 
waltzingmatilda said:
I just have to thank you MrsPC. I have taken a step back from this case in order to clear my head and rethink just the facts and this is the only logical theory that makes sense to me. I also have changed my mind and feel Shannan's death was likely accidental. Although her belongings being found quite a distance away from her body is perplexing. I question if SG was even wearing her pants & shoes or carrying them when she ran from JB's house. MP added that little tidbit 'she was fully clothed' when recounting entering JB's residence that night which struck me as odd. (I will look for a link) And where is her blond wig? Or am I misremembering her wearing a blonde wig? Geesh so many questions..

That is a great catch you made on Malia and Blue searching for Melissa, NOT Shannan. (I would love a link if you have it!) I always wondered why Malia and Blue were searching away from where Shannan was last seen.

As far as JB, MP & CPH, I don't believe a word they say as JB and MP were involved in criminal activity that night so I expect them to cover their butts. Irt CPH, well, we know he has a documented history of allegedly telling tall tales. IMO, JB & MP are in cahoots. I wish I could find the link but IIRC someone posted Suffolk Co./Oak Beach minutes of a meeting which updated the case and revealed that JB contacted MP to set up the appt with Shannan. If anyone has a link to this info, I would appreciate if you would post it again as I didn't save it. Thanks!

All MOO!

wm
Click to expand...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7451455&postcount=160"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - New Search for Shannan Gilbert, Body found in Marsh[/ame]

and the actual Suffolk link

http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/clerk/cmeet/ps/2011/PS050511.pdf
 
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