Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

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Salem

Http://www.maxim.com/true-crime/long-island-murder-mystery

Geberth, who has closely followed the case, thinks the killer is likely local but notes that he probably isn’t some Buffalo Bill–type loony. “These people—though they have a legitimate diagnosis, which would be psychopathic sexual sadism—aren’t crazy,” he says. “Psychopaths know exactly what they’re doing. They just don’t give a ****.”Profilers, both armchair and expert, had a field day trying to paint a portrait of the killer. The shared location of the remains indicates that he’s both brazen and meticulous. His knowledge of the region suggests a local, but the phone calls to Melissa Barthel*emy’s sister were traced to Manhattan. His ability to secure the victims’ trust indicates that he’s charming, but the very nature of the crimes is a clear sign of acute sadism. The burlap bags point to a landscaper or clam digger, but the killer’s skill in avoiding detection and capture has led some to speculate that he’s a member of law enforcement.For observers, what remained most perplexing was that the police ultimately ruled out Shannan Gilbert as a victim of the serial killer.

Commissioner Dormer maintained that Shannan’s death was an accident. According to his theory, she ran off into the brush at Oak Beach, got tangled up, and drowned in the marshy water.

Geberth finds that theory ludicrous. “You can’t separate the victims, because they all fit the same profile: They’re all Craigslist girls, they all went to meet somebody out on Long Island, and they didn’t come back. How are you trying to separate these?” he asks. “And to suggest that Shannan died accidentally? Give me a break!”

I actually like PB. He has a lot to offer. His opinions are as good as anyone elses. When I say he doesn't know what he is talking about the readers shouldn't take it too literal. I am under the belief that everyone's opinion could have some value. I will give him extra credit for writing a book on serial killers. It requires a good writer to have done considerable research on the matter. He probably has a broader knowledge of serial killers than most of us do, including yours truly.

As a general rule I have a lot of admiration for people that write books. It takes a lot of courage, confidence, and committment to sit down and write a book that most likely no one is going to read. So a tip of the hat to those that take the time to share their thoughts, fiction or otherwise to those they wish to enlighten.

I guess it has a lot to do with a giant ego, or substantial ego to think anyone is intrerested in what you have to say. Nothing wrong with Ego if it doesn't make you an an obnoxious pain in the butt.

Samantha Spade said:

Http://www.maxim.com/true-crime/long-island-murder-mystery

Geberth, who has closely followed the case, thinks the killer is likely local but notes that he probably isn’t some Buffalo Bill–type loony. “These people—though they have a legitimate diagnosis, which would be psychopathic sexual sadism—aren’t crazy,” he says. “Psychopaths know exactly what they’re doing. They just don’t give a ****.”Profilers, both armchair and expert, had a field day trying to paint a portrait of the killer. The shared location of the remains indicates that he’s both brazen and meticulous. His knowledge of the region suggests a local, but the phone calls to Melissa Barthel*emy’s sister were traced to Manhattan. His ability to secure the victims’ trust indicates that he’s charming, but the very nature of the crimes is a clear sign of acute sadism. The burlap bags point to a landscaper or clam digger, but the killer’s skill in avoiding detection and capture has led some to speculate that he’s a member of law enforcement.For observers, what remained most perplexing was that the police ultimately ruled out Shannan Gilbert as a victim of the serial killer.

Commissioner Dormer maintained that Shannan’s death was an accident. According to his theory, she ran off into the brush at Oak Beach, got tangled up, and drowned in the marshy water.

Geberth finds that theory ludicrous. “You can’t separate the victims, because they all fit the same profile: They’re all Craigslist girls, they all went to meet somebody out on Long Island, and they didn’t come back. How are you trying to separate these?” he asks. “And to suggest that Shannan died accidentally? Give me a break!”

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Well Gerberth is a complete idiot for making that statement. He shouldn't write about a case without taking twenty minutes to read the facts and get to know the details.

For starters, it has been proven over and over again that SG DID NOT advertise on Craigslist to meet JB.

Secondly, if he actually knew anything about this case he would know that two of the GB4 victims DID come back after meeting their last dates. Also, why on earth is he stating that all four of them went to meet somebody out on Long Island?????

Where is there any proof that ANY of the GB4 other than ACL had a date to meet someone on Long Island?

No sir Mr. Gerberth; GIVE US A BREAK!!!!!!

Seaslug44 said:

Well Gerberth is a complete idiot for making that statement. He shouldn't write about a case without taking twenty minutes to read the facts and get to know the details.

For starters, it has been proven over and over again that SG DID NOT advertise on Craigslist to meet JB.

Secondly, if he actually knew anything about this case he would know that two of the GB4 victims DID come back after meeting their last dates. Also, why on earth is he stating that all four of them went to meet somebody out on Long Island?????

Where is there any proof that ANY of the GB4 other than ACL had a date to meet someone on Long Island?

No sir Mr. Gerberth; GIVE US A BREAK!!!!!!

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Brewer has said on a couple different occasions he contacted Gilbert through a "social networking site" and not Craigslist or Backpage, right? At the time she and Pak went out to Oak Beach, Shannan was working on her own so she only had to split the money two ways (with her driver) and not three ways (driver/service), but the social networking twist always seemed odd to me. My first instinct was Facebook. But that doesn't make any sense at all for a number of reasons which are fairly obvious. Then I thought maybe Brewer could have "liked" an escort service disguising itself on FB as whatever it chose to disguise itself as and then after he contacted them he was told that Gilbert was available. That's actually a pretty clever idea. But, as just stated, she wasn't working for an agency at that point in time. So what gives? Had Brewer and Gilbert met before that night on Oak Beach when she went missing and therefore had an established relationship nobody knew about? I've heard whispers this might be the case. Brewer isn't a stand up guy, no matter how "holistic" he claims to be.

CMan0928 said:

Brewer has said on a couple different occasions he contacted Gilbert through a "social networking site" and not Craigslist or Backpage, right? At the time she and Pak went out to Oak Beach, Shannan was working on her own so she only had to split the money two ways (with her driver) and not three ways (driver/service), but the social networking twist always seemed odd to me. My first instinct was Facebook. But that doesn't make any sense at all for a number of reasons which are fairly obvious. Then I thought maybe Brewer could have "liked" an escort service disguising itself on FB as whatever it chose to disguise itself as and then after he contacted them he was told that Gilbert was available. That's actually a pretty clever idea. But, as just stated, she wasn't working for an agency at that point in time. So what gives? Had Brewer and Gilbert met before that night on Oak Beach when she went missing and therefore had an established relationship nobody knew about? I've heard whispers this might be the case. Brewer isn't a stand up guy, no matter how "holistic" he claims to be.

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I think what's more possible is that Brewer and Pak had an established relationship. Coletti has told me on a couple of occasions that Pak, in describing where he was coming from, specifically used Brewer's last name- saying he was partying at "Brewer's house". He definitely coulda have learned his name that nite but I lean otherwise. JMO.

fieldnotes said:

I think what's more possible is that Brewer and Pak had an established relationship. Coletti has told me on a couple of occasions that Pak, in describing where he was coming from, specifically used Brewer's last name- saying he was partying at "Brewer's house". He definitely coulda have learned his name that nite but I lean otherwise. JMO.

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Interesting Fieldnotes, Do you think Pak had taken her to Brewer's house on previous occasions? When we talked about Dr Hackett months ago wasn't it brought up that they had met before? I'm just wondering if Shannan had ever been to Oak Beach before? If so, that would possibly mean it wasn't a stranger who grabbed her, if that did happen.

scandi said:

Interesting Fieldnotes, Do you think Pak had taken her to Brewer's house on previous occasions? When we talked about Dr Hackett months ago wasn't it brought up that they had met before? I'm just wondering if Shannan had ever been to Oak Beach before? If so, that would possibly mean it wasn't a stranger who grabbed her, if that did happen.

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It's possible but I would think if she'd been there before she would have had a better sense of where she was instead of believing she was on Fire Island. But maybe not I dunno.

CMan0928 said:

Brewer has said on a couple different occasions he contacted Gilbert through a "social networking site" and not Craigslist or Backpage, right? At the time she and Pak went out to Oak Beach, Shannan was working on her own so she only had to split the money two ways (with her driver) and not three ways (driver/service), but the social networking twist always seemed odd to me. My first instinct was Facebook. But that doesn't make any sense at all for a number of reasons which are fairly obvious. Then I thought maybe Brewer could have "liked" an escort service disguising itself on FB as whatever it chose to disguise itself as and then after he contacted them he was told that Gilbert was available. That's actually a pretty clever idea. But, as just stated, she wasn't working for an agency at that point in time. So what gives? Had Brewer and Gilbert met before that night on Oak Beach when she went missing and therefore had an established relationship nobody knew about? I've heard whispers this might be the case. Brewer isn't a stand up guy, no matter how "holistic" he claims to be.

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More likely some dating site. Many escorts use those.

fieldnotes said:

I think what's more possible is that Brewer and Pak had an established relationship. Coletti has told me on a couple of occasions that Pak, in describing where he was coming from, specifically used Brewer's last name- saying he was partying at "Brewer's house". He definitely coulda have learned his name that nite but I lean otherwise. JMO.

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Probably learned the name AFTER that night. Obviously this has been a major event in Pak's life, so you would expect him to know the names of the other players. It doesn't mean there was any relationship between them.

Tugela said:

Probably learned the name AFTER that night. Obviously this has been a major event in Pak's life, so you would expect him to know the names of the other players. It doesn't mean there was any relationship between them.

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My point is, according to Coletti, Pak used Brewer's name that night. Either way, it's a minor point. Probably doesn't mean anything. And nothing Brewer says can be believed because he's deflecting anything that would point to him engaging prostitution. So he tells cops he met her on facebook or a dating site but that's surely not true.

I am not 100% sure, but I am still leaning toward drugs for her behavior that night. IMO, someone in their right mind, that was thinking clear and logically would not have some the things she did. Especially after Coletti said he was calling the police. She doesn't know the town, she isn't locale, drugs can make someone incredibly paranoid, especially with someone with an underlined mental disease.

Just the thought of careful the LISK has been, I do not believe for one second that he would allow a victim that much control. Wouldn't you think he would go through extreme measures to stop her from leaving, much less dial a 911 call in JB's house? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe one Of those guys got flustered, after the call and killed her. But I think it is unlikely. Also the fact that her bones were found intact.. in that particular pot, there is no way(as PB said earlier) someone could of laid those bones in a perfect skeletal structer. I would to know what the ground under her looked like. Because that could answer a lot of questions. Because when a body rote in a certain spot, it leaves some sort of fluid on the ground. LE has to know the answer to this, and haven't released any info yet.

I think if they gave us that answer, we could almost put this thing to rest. I am hoping something comes out soon.

fieldnotes said:

My point is, according to Coletti, Pak used Brewer's name that night. Either way, it's a minor point. Probably doesn't mean anything. And nothing Brewer says can be believed because he's deflecting anything that would point to him engaging prostitution. So he tells cops he met her on facebook or a dating site but that's surely not true.

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The fact that SG's driver knew Brewer's last name could likely be evidence that Brewer is innocent. It suggests that unlike the GB4, SG was smart enough to verify the identity of her clients before meeting with them. This is a common practive among escorts. Here is one of hundreds of services out there available to escorts to assist them with the verification process;

www.verifyhim.com/

It is very likely that SG utilized this service before agreeing to drive an hour out to a complete stranger's home. If she did (and LE has this information from MP & JB) then this could be yet another reason why they have said that neither MP or JB are persons of interest.

Samantha Spade said:

Http://www.maxim.com/true-crime/long-island-murder-mystery

Geberth, who has closely followed the case, thinks the killer is likely local but notes that he probably isn’t some Buffalo Bill–type loony. “These people—though they have a legitimate diagnosis, which would be psychopathic sexual sadism—aren’t crazy,” he says. “Psychopaths know exactly what they’re doing. They just don’t give a ****.”Profilers, both armchair and expert, had a field day trying to paint a portrait of the killer. The shared location of the remains indicates that he’s both brazen and meticulous. His knowledge of the region suggests a local, but the phone calls to Melissa Barthel*emy’s sister were traced to Manhattan. His ability to secure the victims’ trust indicates that he’s charming, but the very nature of the crimes is a clear sign of acute sadism. The burlap bags point to a landscaper or clam digger, but the killer’s skill in avoiding detection and capture has led some to speculate that he’s a member of law enforcement.For observers, what remained most perplexing was that the police ultimately ruled out Shannan Gilbert as a victim of the serial killer.

Commissioner Dormer maintained that Shannan’s death was an accident. According to his theory, she ran off into the brush at Oak Beach, got tangled up, and drowned in the marshy water.

Geberth finds that theory ludicrous. “You can’t separate the victims, because they all fit the same profile: They’re all Craigslist girls, they all went to meet somebody out on Long Island, and they didn’t come back. How are you trying to separate these?” he asks. “And to suggest that Shannan died accidentally? Give me a break!”

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So, technically, his and my profile have an overlap in a lot of points, the difference is, that he thinks, it's ludicrous to see Shannan Gilbert as separate case due to the vicinity, which is basically the only point they have in common, since SG wasn't wrapped in burlap nor integrated in the meticulous trophy yard as the GB4 were.
So with all due respect, two things prove his theory as rather wobbly in this aspect: First, this is based on the assumption, the odds to have two SKs in one area are somewhat 1:infinite. Which they are not. LA thought the same with the Hillside Stranglers and missed Alcala, the authorities in Florida thought so and missed Cosden (and probably one more they never caught). And when it comes to SKs plus unrelated bodies in one area, we need only to look to Manorville. So this base of his theory is already proven wrong by reality.
The second point is a little iffy. SK cases are a very special thing. He has seen more than his share. I don't know exactly, whether he was already at the NYPD when Berkowitz was active. Basically, the NYPD came on Berkowitz' track because he had parked in front of a hydrant. And when they followed up, the officer on the other end said: "Hey, I waited already for your guys to call, I think, this guy is the Son of Sam" ... well, he didn't call them in the first place. And starting with the Son of Sam, a long line of rather embarrassing SK cases started. They didn't even recognize that they had an SK on their hands in the Rifkin case till the killer drove around without plate but with a body on the bed of the truck. Geberth was part of homicide when Rifkin's victims were found. He was one who didn't protest when the ME wrote, the victim was probably a drug mule who died when a cocaine filled bag burst in her stomach. Yeah, without bag, without other still filled bags in her stomach and with a negative tox screen.
Alcala was busy in NYC when Geberth was on the force, right? If it wouldn't be for the Robin Samsoe case, Alcala would be still free. And the Robin Samsoe case happened in California and also there, LE and prosecution saw only in the third attempt what they had really on their hands.
The story of the Intercontinental also appears to find no end. This happened from 1990 on, so in a time, Geberth was already in a responsible position. Someone went in his city and developed a taste for dismembering women with bandsaws. He was never caught.
So, while I admit, he is a very good organisator and he did some awesome work in formalizing the processes, his success quota of catching serial killers by investigative measures (zero in more than 40 years) is not of the kind, that would make any discussion obsolete.


sO IN FACT gERBERTH#s PROFILE AND MINE

hawkshaw said:

I actually like PB. He has a lot to offer. His opinions are as good as anyone elses. When I say he doesn't know what he is talking about the readers shouldn't take it too literal. I am under the belief that everyone's opinion could have some value. I will give him extra credit for writing a book on serial killers. It requires a good writer to have done considerable research on the matter. He probably has a broader knowledge of serial killers than most of us do, including yours truly.

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Thanks, and don't forget the profiles, which were accurate. With a three out of three, I have a higher hit quota than some professionals. So, yes, I sill claim, I know what I'm talking. I'm just a little bit tired to go through the same riots every time again.

hawkshaw said:

As a general rule I have a lot of admiration for people that write books. It takes a lot of courage, confidence, and committment to sit down and write a book that most likely no one is going to read. So a tip of the hat to those that take the time to share their thoughts, fiction or otherwise to those they wish to enlighten.

I guess it has a lot to do with a giant ego, or substantial ego to think anyone is intrerested in what you have to say. Nothing wrong with Ego if it doesn't make you an an obnoxious pain in the butt.

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First of all, I am published since more than 10 years. I live since more than five from the incomes of my writing. So "someone" obviously read my books. But then, this is irrelevant, since I don't write true crime anyway. True crime is research and hobby. Not more not less.
I could tell you about writing, Hawkshaw. About writer's block, about deadlines, about doubts, and there are a lot. I could, but this would contradict your preconceived perception and dismiss your little underhand jab as what it is and thus lead to another trench war. So why don't you just admit, you have not the faintest idea about writing?

CMan0928 said:

Brewer has said on a couple different occasions he contacted Gilbert through a "social networking site" and not Craigslist or Backpage, right? At the time she and Pak went out to Oak Beach, Shannan was working on her own so she only had to split the money two ways (with her driver) and not three ways (driver/service), but the social networking twist always seemed odd to me. My first instinct was Facebook. But that doesn't make any sense at all for a number of reasons which are fairly obvious. Then I thought maybe Brewer could have "liked" an escort service disguising itself on FB as whatever it chose to disguise itself as and then after he contacted them he was told that Gilbert was available. That's actually a pretty clever idea. But, as just stated, she wasn't working for an agency at that point in time. So what gives? Had Brewer and Gilbert met before that night on Oak Beach when she went missing and therefore had an established relationship nobody knew about? I've heard whispers this might be the case. Brewer isn't a stand up guy, no matter how "holistic" he claims to be.

Click to expand...

I haven't found anything on social networking sites, so I got a little lost there. So, why not look at Brewer from another angle. This guy has money. He is well-organized when it comes to order himself a prostitute. I mentioned my suspicions about his sexual preferences based on the lie detector test. That he is in fact more of a voyeur type. Therefore the drifter in the house. And yes, alcohol was at hand and probably also drugs. I can't believe, SG would carry out her own stash to Brewer, so it had to be his stash that night.
Putting this all together, this doesn't look like his first attempt to start a party. He has done it before. But did he invite always different prostitutes or did he keep some kind of small list? The answer lies in would he consider his tastes as weird or not. If he feels them as weird, he would want to hold the number of prostitutes small.

Peter Brendt said:

First of all, I am published since more than 10 years. I live since more than five from the incomes of my writing. So "someone" obviously read my books. But then, this is irrelevant, since I don't write true crime anyway. True crime is research and hobby. Not more not less.
I could tell you about writing, Hawkshaw. About writer's block, about deadlines, about doubts, and there are a lot. I could, but this would contradict your preconceived perception and dismiss your little underhand jab as what it is and thus lead to another trench war. So why don't you just admit, you have not the faintest idea about writing?

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Where did I ever say I knew something about writing? If I did know something about writing I would have written a thousand books by now. Talk about underhanded jabs.

Writing a novel can be just as exhaustive in research than a non fiction book. I remember reading a book by a very well published mystery writer, Mc something or other. He writes a few lines referring to the JFK assassination on 11/23. OK, I am a smart guy and pick that up right away. That one sentence is going to piece the whole story together in the last chapter. How could anyone his age, or even younger get that wrong? How could this man of the world get it wrong? How could his proof readers and edtiors get it wrong unless there was a hook into the story.

As it turned out the author got it wrong. And I never read another book by him again.

I worked with a guy that wrote a book about the Vatican Connection. The real writer wrote it and he just had his name down on the cover as a co-author. It was an interesting case I knew something about although I didn't work it. Started reading the book and thought it was well written. I guess I got to around page 40 and this BS artist tells us that this case was so important to DA Hogan (it was) and the DA had such high respect for the detective that Mr.Hogan often brought him to his office to discuss the case. It was ALL BS. This guy was tooting his horn and lying about the facts. I DID know Mr.Hogan intimately, or better than most. I knew him better than most, if not all of his high ranking assistants. I knew there was NO chance on this God's Earth that Mr.Hogan would ever think of calling this detective into his office for a one on one chat. Mr.Hogan had his own way of doing things. I put the book down and never read another word. If he would lie about that he would lie about most anything.

Writing a book and getting it published is no easy task no matter how many millions of books there are on the shelves. I think I could write a credible book if I had the patience to write such a book. At my age I know my pluses and minusus.

Your post regarding the methods used by the SK to dump bodies tends to support my theory about it not being a serial killer. I was pretty much of the same opinion where you how a SK disposes of the bodies.

I just knew this without scientific proof or research. I just didn't offer my opinion because I couldn't prove it with factual information.

You said that GH? would have been unique if he dumped the four bodies so close to his home. SK's just don't do that because they fear they are going to get caught. Gacy is an animal of a different stripe. I suspect that in part, Gacy didn;t move the bodies from his home because he feared getting caught.

Other serial killers just leave the bodies where they are killed.

You mentioned that when SK;s move a body they will travel up to 100 miles away. If GH took the trouble to load the 4 bodies into vehicle and risk getitng caught, then why not go all the away and put the bodies far away from his home. The biggest risk factor is loading and unloading the bodies. If you are not driving a stolen car, or DWB, and are oberying the traffic laws you have almost no chance of being caught. Better to put as much distance between the bodies and your home as long as you are taking the trouble to transport the bodies.

A SK is a very special breed of person. I suspect they are paranoid of being caught. The operate in the dark. You could have a SK living next door to you and you would never know it.

Paranoia will cause you not to return to the scene of the crime. Is anyone waiting for me to return with my next victim. That is why I don;t believe the 4 bodies are the work of a serial killer. I don't believe he stored all the bodies to remove together in one place. He puts himself at too much risk of being caught for being out there too long.

The definition of a SK is of most importance. I believe most of us have the same view of what a real serial killer is: A person that kills for pleasure or some deep rooted mental condition. No, my friend, IMHO, this is the work of your run of the mill killer that kills for profit, not pleasure.

As a former homicide detective that has found many bodies in secluded places I still have the curiosity to say to myself when I pass one of those Oak Beach sites, gee, I wonder how many bodies they will find if they bothered to look. If I think that way what do you think your average killer thinks when he passes a dump site.